{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4350", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4350, "subject": "urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "messages": 6, "voices": 2, "first": "2005-02-01T12:42:37+00:00", "last": "2005-02-01T17:29:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050201204233.59261.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-01T12:42:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have been observing the suspect through this\ndeceptive mirror.\nIf the 'client' has any doubts that the mirror he\nfaces is more than just a reflective surface, then he\nhides his suspicions well, but I suspect he may not\nknow he is observed by me from the other side.\nThe purpose of my study is to reveal whether the\nsubject is truly human or just some strange alien,\nphantasm or artificial device which has learned to\nassume a human form.\nThe resemblance to a human is frighteningly accurate.\nIn fact I think he looks like me, though others report\nthis observation to be inaccurate in many ways.\nI cannot hear his words, his space seems well\nsound-proofed, but, reading his lips, his\nspeech seems to be English." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From his behaviour I notice he is a good mimic of" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "others. Indeed he often seems to ape my own actions,\nthough in a contradictory fashion.\nFor some reason he seems unwilling to reveal the back\nof his head to me, though I am planning to place\nanother trick mirror on the opposite wall of his\n'cell' to catch him out.\nI call the observation room a cell, not because he is\nheld as a prisoner, I can see the door in his room is\nunlocked, as is my own.\nHe seems as happy with his situation as I appear to be\nwith my own. I object to the abuse which he has at\ntimes received from those who understand less of his\nplight than I.\nI call it a cell because he seems at times to be\nunready to leave the room before adjusting his\nappearance in subtle ways. This in itself does not\nindicate that he has any unusual shape-shifting\nabilities, though it does raise a few questions in my\nmind.\nI have decided I will give him the benefit of the\ndoubt, all his actions and his appearance would lead\nme to conclude him a human. I still have some doubts,\nbut if I terminated his existence as a result of my\nown uncertainties I would be less than human myself.\nWhether the higher authorities will accept my\nrecommendations is unclear but I would\nsuggest they release him and grant him the same rights\nas other humans. \n\n\nYou're my mirror in the bathroom!\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-01T12:57:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": "<20050201204233.59261.qmail@web25705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a decent story conceit, but this ain't a writer's workshop- we\ndeal in 'about's here, not 'possesives'.\n\n~Maru\nMicrosoft delenda est." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:42:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Raylor\n wrote:\nI have been observing the suspect through this\ndeceptive mirror.\nIf the 'client' has any doubts that the mirror he\nfaces is more than just a reflective surface, then he\nhides his suspicions well, but I suspect he may not\nknow he is observed by me from the other side.\nThe purpose of my study is to reveal whether the\nsubject is truly human or just some strange alien,\nphantasm or artificial device which has learned to\nassume a human form.\nThe resemblance to a human is frighteningly accurate.\nIn fact I think he looks like me, though others report\nthis observation to be inaccurate in many ways.\nI cannot hear his words, his space seems well\nsound-proofed, but, reading his lips, his\nspeech seems to be English." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From his behaviour I notice he is a good mimic of\nothers. Indeed he often seems to ape my own actions,\nthough in a contradictory fashion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For some reason he seems unwilling to reveal the back\nof his head to me, though I am planning to place\nanother trick mirror on the opposite wall of his\n'cell' to catch him out.\nI call the observation room a cell, not because he is\nheld as a prisoner, I can see the door in his room is\nunlocked, as is my own.\nHe seems as happy with his situation as I appear to be\nwith my own. I object to the abuse which he has at\ntimes received from those who understand less of his\nplight than I.\nI call it a cell because he seems at times to be\nunready to leave the room before adjusting his\nappearance in subtle ways. This in itself does not\nindicate that he has any unusual shape-shifting\nabilities, though it does raise a few questions in my\nmind.\nI have decided I will give him the benefit of the\ndoubt, all his actions and his appearance would lead\nme to conclude him a human. I still have some doubts,\nbut if I terminated his existence as a result of my\nown uncertainties I would be less than human myself.\nWhether the higher authorities will accept my\nrecommendations is unclear but I would\nsuggest they release him and grant him the same rights\nas other humans.\n\nYou're my mirror in the bathroom!\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n___________________________________________________________\nALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050201211516.49506.qmail@web25710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-01T13:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Annese delenda est\nIt has already been pointed out that a one line\nresponse does not need to be accompanied by the whole\npreceding post. So I will not reiterate the point!\nIchythoids often check their appearance in the\nbathroom mirror before leaving home.\nThe point of my 'Testing Turing' story is that in many\nways a reflection can pass the Turing test, though I\nam not suggesting a trick of the light should deceive\nus.\nIt is worth considering humans who cannot pass the\nturing test or the shovel test... illiterates perhaps,\nbabies, people in comas etc.\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-01T14:40:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": "<20050201211516.49506.qmail@web25710.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those may be genetically human bodies, but the examples you pose are\nnot clearly human. They can do nothing we regard as quintessentially\nhuman (anything that separates us from animals, which makes us regard\nourselves as sentient beings, lords of nature, moral agents etc and\neverything else as not) even if there is a chance they might. We\njudge on present capabilities and results, not potentials- I do not\nsupport abortion, for example, because it might prevent the next few\nh-bomb inventors, Stalins, Hitlers etc, nor do I think life sentences\nfor all crimes (after all, most crimes are done by recidivists!) are\njustified. Etc.\nAnd the Annese were already destroyed. Sic transit mundi.\n\n~Maru\nMicrosoft delenda est." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:15:16 +0000 (GMT), Jim Raylor\n wrote:\nAnnese delenda est\nIt has already been pointed out that a one line\nresponse does not need to be accompanied by the whole\npreceding post. So I will not reiterate the point!\nIchythoids often check their appearance in the\nbathroom mirror before leaving home.\nThe point of my 'Testing Turing' story is that in many\nways a reflection can pass the Turing test, though I\nam not suggesting a trick of the light should deceive\nus.\nIt is worth considering humans who cannot pass the\nturing test or the shovel test... illiterates perhaps,\nbabies, people in comas etc.\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n___________________________________________________________\nALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050201225944.30611.qmail@web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-01T14:59:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maru said\nOf course they do: context matters. When translating\nit's not a\nmatter of just swapping syntactic structures, grammar,\nand voabulary-\nif it was, machine translation woulda been licked a\nlong time ago. \nThose are low level rules- there are rules that govern\nhow the story\nacts, and how the meaning units interact. Contextual\nrules, not just\nsyntactic rules, if that makes sense.\n--------------\n\nWilliam Burroughs constructed 'Dead Fingers Talk' from\ncut-ups of his previous novels.\nI used to attend maths lectures where I would copy the\nsymbols but would only realise their meaning after\nstudying them later.\nMeaning is at least a crossroads.\nThere is what the author intended. There is also what\nhe did not intend but others see (maybe a professor of\nSinology who is just copying the notes left by the\ndead Mathematician who originally taught this lesson).\nThere is what you see and others don't. There is what\nthey see that you miss.\n\nThere are tests that challenge whether we perceive the\nworld in the same way, for instance the dot tests for\ncolour blindness and the optician's chart.\nBut who is to say if what looks like a pink sun to you\nis like a yellow star to me?\nNot another inkblot! Methinks it looks a lot like a\ncloud!\nNext I would have you believe that the twin planet you\nsee above you is made of green cheese!\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-01T17:29:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1", "in_reply_to": "<20050201225944.30611.qmail@web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is always a temporal gap between perception and comprehension-\nmore recondite and insanely abstract subjects (like math; please note\nthe double commentary embedded in 'insane') require more time. No\nsurprise there.\nAnd as far as the ridicoulous myth of the 'moon' goes, I say only one thing:\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/~l33tsysadmin/26211.html\nAre you surprised that people see different meanings? ever think about\nmemory? what is it but the shuffling throughout time of different\nperceptions. Necessarily I went through a different worldline, traced\nout a different 4-d line of life, which means that the shuffling of\ntime I do to understand the information-poor slice of current time\nwill neccessarily be different. Furthermore, addinging in another\nfactor, another recursion, a double exponential, is the fact that I\nshuffle not only my own life, but the lives and thoughts of many\nothers, as conveyed to me. Those add geometrically, since they affect\nevery succeeding moment, which affect every succeeding moment....\nif we could live long enough, we might see what the upside of an\nexponential curve looks like. Always we are on the knee of the J.\n\n~Maru\nMicrosoft delenda est." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Raylor wrote:\nWilliam Burroughs constructed 'Dead Fingers Talk' from\ncut-ups of his previous novels.\nI used to attend maths lectures where I would copy the\nsymbols but would only realise their meaning after\nstudying them later.\nMeaning is at least a crossroads.\nThere is what the author intended. There is also what\nhe did not intend but others see (maybe a professor of\nSinology who is just copying the notes left by the\ndead Mathematician who originally taught this lesson).\nThere is what you see and others don't. There is what\nthey see that you miss.\nThere are tests that challenge whether we perceive the\nworld in the same way, for instance the dot tests for\ncolour blindness and the optician's chart.\nBut who is to say if what looks like a pink sun to you\nis like a yellow star to me?\nNot another inkblot! Methinks it looks a lot like a\ncloud!\nNext I would have you believe that the twin planet you\nsee above you is made of green cheese!" } ] } ] }