# urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1 *The Urth list — 6 messages, 2 voices, 01 Feb 2005* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Jim Raylor *01 Feb 2005, 12:42* I have been observing the suspect through this deceptive mirror. If the 'client' has any doubts that the mirror he faces is more than just a reflective surface, then he hides his suspicions well, but I suspect he may not know he is observed by me from the other side. The purpose of my study is to reveal whether the subject is truly human or just some strange alien, phantasm or artificial device which has learned to assume a human form. The resemblance to a human is frighteningly accurate. In fact I think he looks like me, though others report this observation to be inaccurate in many ways. I cannot hear his words, his space seems well sound-proofed, but, reading his lips, his speech seems to be English. > From his behaviour I notice he is a good mimic of others. Indeed he often seems to ape my own actions, though in a contradictory fashion. For some reason he seems unwilling to reveal the back of his head to me, though I am planning to place another trick mirror on the opposite wall of his 'cell' to catch him out. I call the observation room a cell, not because he is held as a prisoner, I can see the door in his room is unlocked, as is my own. He seems as happy with his situation as I appear to be with my own. I object to the abuse which he has at times received from those who understand less of his plight than I. I call it a cell because he seems at times to be unready to leave the room before adjusting his appearance in subtle ways. This in itself does not indicate that he has any unusual shape-shifting abilities, though it does raise a few questions in my mind. I have decided I will give him the benefit of the doubt, all his actions and his appearance would lead me to conclude him a human. I still have some doubts, but if I terminated his existence as a result of my own uncertainties I would be less than human myself. Whether the higher authorities will accept my recommendations is unclear but I would suggest they release him and grant him the same rights as other humans. You're my mirror in the bathroom! ===== http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! --- ### Maru Dubshinki *01 Feb 2005, 12:57 · in reply to Jim Raylor* That's a decent story conceit, but this ain't a writer's workshop- we deal in 'about's here, not 'possesives'. ~Maru Microsoft delenda est. > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:42:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Raylor > wrote: > I have been observing the suspect through this > deceptive mirror. > If the 'client' has any doubts that the mirror he > faces is more than just a reflective surface, then he > hides his suspicions well, but I suspect he may not > know he is observed by me from the other side. > The purpose of my study is to reveal whether the > subject is truly human or just some strange alien, > phantasm or artificial device which has learned to > assume a human form. > The resemblance to a human is frighteningly accurate. > In fact I think he looks like me, though others report > this observation to be inaccurate in many ways. > I cannot hear his words, his space seems well > sound-proofed, but, reading his lips, his > speech seems to be English. >> From his behaviour I notice he is a good mimic of >> others. Indeed he often seems to ape my own actions, >> though in a contradictory fashion. > For some reason he seems unwilling to reveal the back > of his head to me, though I am planning to place > another trick mirror on the opposite wall of his > 'cell' to catch him out. > I call the observation room a cell, not because he is > held as a prisoner, I can see the door in his room is > unlocked, as is my own. > He seems as happy with his situation as I appear to be > with my own. I object to the abuse which he has at > times received from those who understand less of his > plight than I. > I call it a cell because he seems at times to be > unready to leave the room before adjusting his > appearance in subtle ways. This in itself does not > indicate that he has any unusual shape-shifting > abilities, though it does raise a few questions in my > mind. > I have decided I will give him the benefit of the > doubt, all his actions and his appearance would lead > me to conclude him a human. I still have some doubts, > but if I terminated his existence as a result of my > own uncertainties I would be less than human myself. > Whether the higher authorities will accept my > recommendations is unclear but I would > suggest they release him and grant him the same rights > as other humans. > > You're my mirror in the bathroom! > > ===== > http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ > > I am not a number I am a free person! > > > ___________________________________________________________ > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jim Raylor *01 Feb 2005, 13:15 · follows Maru Dubshinki* Annese delenda est It has already been pointed out that a one line response does not need to be accompanied by the whole preceding post. So I will not reiterate the point! Ichythoids often check their appearance in the bathroom mirror before leaving home. The point of my 'Testing Turing' story is that in many ways a reflection can pass the Turing test, though I am not suggesting a trick of the light should deceive us. It is worth considering humans who cannot pass the turing test or the shovel test... illiterates perhaps, babies, people in comas etc. ===== http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! --- ### Maru Dubshinki *01 Feb 2005, 14:40 · in reply to Jim Raylor* Those may be genetically human bodies, but the examples you pose are not clearly human. They can do nothing we regard as quintessentially human (anything that separates us from animals, which makes us regard ourselves as sentient beings, lords of nature, moral agents etc and everything else as not) even if there is a chance they might. We judge on present capabilities and results, not potentials- I do not support abortion, for example, because it might prevent the next few h-bomb inventors, Stalins, Hitlers etc, nor do I think life sentences for all crimes (after all, most crimes are done by recidivists!) are justified. Etc. And the Annese were already destroyed. Sic transit mundi. ~Maru Microsoft delenda est. > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:15:16 +0000 (GMT), Jim Raylor > wrote: > Annese delenda est > It has already been pointed out that a one line > response does not need to be accompanied by the whole > preceding post. So I will not reiterate the point! > Ichythoids often check their appearance in the > bathroom mirror before leaving home. > The point of my 'Testing Turing' story is that in many > ways a reflection can pass the Turing test, though I > am not suggesting a trick of the light should deceive > us. > It is worth considering humans who cannot pass the > turing test or the shovel test... illiterates perhaps, > babies, people in comas etc. > > ===== > http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ > > I am not a number I am a free person! > > ___________________________________________________________ > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jim Raylor *01 Feb 2005, 14:59 · follows Maru Dubshinki* Maru said Of course they do: context matters. When translating it's not a matter of just swapping syntactic structures, grammar, and voabulary- if it was, machine translation woulda been licked a long time ago. Those are low level rules- there are rules that govern how the story acts, and how the meaning units interact. Contextual rules, not just syntactic rules, if that makes sense. -------------- William Burroughs constructed 'Dead Fingers Talk' from cut-ups of his previous novels. I used to attend maths lectures where I would copy the symbols but would only realise their meaning after studying them later. Meaning is at least a crossroads. There is what the author intended. There is also what he did not intend but others see (maybe a professor of Sinology who is just copying the notes left by the dead Mathematician who originally taught this lesson). There is what you see and others don't. There is what they see that you miss. There are tests that challenge whether we perceive the world in the same way, for instance the dot tests for colour blindness and the optician's chart. But who is to say if what looks like a pink sun to you is like a yellow star to me? Not another inkblot! Methinks it looks a lot like a cloud! Next I would have you believe that the twin planet you see above you is made of green cheese! ===== http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! --- ### Maru Dubshinki *01 Feb 2005, 17:29 · in reply to Jim Raylor* There is always a temporal gap between perception and comprehension- more recondite and insanely abstract subjects (like math; please note the double commentary embedded in 'insane') require more time. No surprise there. And as far as the ridicoulous myth of the 'moon' goes, I say only one thing: http://www.livejournal.com/~l33tsysadmin/26211.html Are you surprised that people see different meanings? ever think about memory? what is it but the shuffling throughout time of different perceptions. Necessarily I went through a different worldline, traced out a different 4-d line of life, which means that the shuffling of time I do to understand the information-poor slice of current time will neccessarily be different. Furthermore, addinging in another factor, another recursion, a double exponential, is the fact that I shuffle not only my own life, but the lives and thoughts of many others, as conveyed to me. Those add geometrically, since they affect every succeeding moment, which affect every succeeding moment.... if we could live long enough, we might see what the upside of an exponential curve looks like. Always we are on the knee of the J. ~Maru Microsoft delenda est. > Jim Raylor wrote: > William Burroughs constructed 'Dead Fingers Talk' from > cut-ups of his previous novels. > I used to attend maths lectures where I would copy the > symbols but would only realise their meaning after > studying them later. > Meaning is at least a crossroads. > There is what the author intended. There is also what > he did not intend but others see (maybe a professor of > Sinology who is just copying the notes left by the > dead Mathematician who originally taught this lesson). > There is what you see and others don't. There is what > they see that you miss. > There are tests that challenge whether we perceive the > world in the same way, for instance the dot tests for > colour blindness and the optician's chart. > But who is to say if what looks like a pink sun to you > is like a yellow star to me? > Not another inkblot! Methinks it looks a lot like a > cloud! > Next I would have you believe that the twin planet you > see above you is made of green cheese! ---