{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4360", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4360, "subject": "5HC : Free People", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2005-02-04T19:29:10+00:00", "last": "2005-02-06T00:30:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050205032907.71220.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jim Raylor", "address": "rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-04T19:29:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC : Free People", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one and only argument that might be considered\npro-slavery that I \ncan \nrecall from Wolfe offhand is the reminder that *for\nthe ancients* a \ncertain \namount slavery was actually the humane way to\neliminate a conquered \ncity as \na potential threat - the alternative being wholesale\nslaughter.\n\nI don't think that could be held as a pro-slavery\nargument in anything \nlike \nthis context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe sets his face like granite against this\nslavery, in book after book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that he often discusses slavery.\nOften he submits arguments in favour of it.\nI think he understood that slavery was not always a\nbad thing... if the slave was willing.\n\n=== message truncated ===" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Consider Io in the Soldier books who pretend she is\ngiven to Latro as a slave to avoid a worse fate.\nIn VRT the interrogator argues that those who are\ndependant on government for healthcare are slaves.\nThe slave at the end of that story is complicit.\nOr take Bruno in TIODD!!!\nI am sure GW also poses the arguments for slavery in\nthe Sun series and if you missed them then I am not\nsure what to say.\n\nNevertheless I agree that GW disapproves of coercional\nslavery when there are better alternatives.\nGene seeks to build on what the Etruscans wrought, not\nto destroy their memory.\n\n=====\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c50baa$9d193d30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-05T09:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC : Free People", "in_reply_to": "<20050205032907.71220.qmail@web25704.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am sure GW also poses the arguments for slavery in\nthe Sun series and if you missed them then I am not\nsure what to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Posing arguments for\" and advocating to two very different things. In The\nShort Sun, Marrow offers *justifications* for slavery, but Wolfe presents\nMarrow as part of the problem on Blue, not the wise solution-maker. Remember\nthat many people were captured and impressed in to slavery as soon as they\ngot off the ships.\n\nThe \"slaves\" in The Long Sun are the chems, and it is difficult to see any\naspect of their existence as anything but heartbreaking...I direct you to\nSilk's discussion with Horn on the airship or Hammerstone's conversation\nwith Silk.\n\nSo, while Wolfe may POSE arguments in the Silk segment, I don't think he\nARGUES for it. Even in Soldier of the Mist, Io PRETENDS to be Latro's slave\nbut he consistently denies she is. This is not slavery. What she wants is\nnot be his slave but his lover (which might have some embedded commentary on\nromantic love, but not slavery). I don't know what terrible life she was\nsupposedly escaping by RUNNING AWAY FROM HER MASTERS with Latro, but her\n'slavery' to Latro did not protect her from a Fate Worse Than Death, since\nshe was eventually raped by Helots and sold into slavery to the Spartans.\n\nIn the Soldier stories Wolfe is only attempting to present the Greeks they\nway they saw themselves. He NEVER justified slavery. He is said that modern\npeople should not feel morally SUPERIOR for not having slavery considering\nthe Holocaust, Khmer Rouge, Stalin, Mao, Dresden, etc etc etc.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-05T11:44:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC : Free People", "in_reply_to": "<001701c50baa$9d193d30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to agree with Crush, and I'd also point out that even this much is \nusing a very loose (and possibly just wrong) definition of \"posing an \nargument for\". In my mind this entails presenting an attempt at \njustification. Yet while slavery occurs in these stories, the reasons it \nhappens rarely if ever qualify as an attempt at justifying it.\n\nIo decides to be Latro's slave in order to avoid being someone else's slave. \nNowhere does she really have a realistic chance not to be a slave; her \nchoice is between masters.\n\nThere is no attempt to justify slavery in the Short Sun - it exists, but is \nstraightforwardly presented as an evil.\n\nIn Long Sun and New Sun there are perhaps speculations on who is or is not a \nslave. This, too, doesn't amount to an attempt to justify slavery.\n\nIn the Soldier books I am willing to grant Wolfe may be making a slightly \nstronger point than even Crush generously allows, and that is the historical \none I mentioned earlier: rebuilding an army was much easier in those times \nthan now (the weapons were simpler), and to have long-term security against \na defeated enemy you had to somehow remove their ability to rebuild. This \nmeant either mass slaughter or forced relocation and/or slavery. It can be \nargued that slavery at that time was the more humane option." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am sure GW also poses the arguments for slavery in\nthe Sun series and if you missed them then I am not\nsure what to say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Posing arguments for\" and advocating to two very different things. In The\nShort Sun, Marrow offers *justifications* for slavery, but Wolfe presents\nMarrow as part of the problem on Blue, not the wise solution-maker. \nRemember\nthat many people were captured and impressed in to slavery as soon as they\ngot off the ships.\n\nThe \"slaves\" in The Long Sun are the chems, and it is difficult to see any\naspect of their existence as anything but heartbreaking...I direct you to\nSilk's discussion with Horn on the airship or Hammerstone's conversation\nwith Silk.\n\nSo, while Wolfe may POSE arguments in the Silk segment, I don't think he\nARGUES for it. Even in Soldier of the Mist, Io PRETENDS to be Latro's slave\nbut he consistently denies she is. This is not slavery. What she wants is\nnot be his slave but his lover (which might have some embedded commentary \non\nromantic love, but not slavery). I don't know what terrible life she was\nsupposedly escaping by RUNNING AWAY FROM HER MASTERS with Latro, but her\n'slavery' to Latro did not protect her from a Fate Worse Than Death, since\nshe was eventually raped by Helots and sold into slavery to the Spartans.\n\nIn the Soldier stories Wolfe is only attempting to present the Greeks they\nway they saw themselves. He NEVER justified slavery. He is said that modern\npeople should not feel morally SUPERIOR for not having slavery considering\nthe Holocaust, Khmer Rouge, Stalin, Mao, Dresden, etc etc etc.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-05T12:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC : Free People", "in_reply_to": "<001701c50baa$9d193d30$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Soldier stories Wolfe is only attempting to present the Greeks they\nway they saw themselves. He NEVER justified slavery. He is said that modern\npeople should not feel morally SUPERIOR for not having slavery considering\nthe Holocaust, Khmer Rouge, Stalin, Mao, Dresden, etc etc etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI think Wolfe might occasionally be trying to say that \"honest slavery\" is \nbetter than the things that replace it in his more dystopian stories. \n\nThere are things that never **call** themselves theft, slavery and genocide, \njust as Nicholas' murder is \"called\" therapy. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4205D51F.5959B5B0@aon.at>", "from": { "name": "Georg Schönegger", "address": "g.schoenegger at aon.at" }, "date": "2005-02-06T00:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC : Free People", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Soldier books I am willing to grant Wolfe may be making a slightly\nstronger point than even Crush generously allows, and that is the historical\none I mentioned earlier: rebuilding an army was much easier in those times\nthan now (the weapons were simpler), and to have long-term security against\na defeated enemy you had to somehow remove their ability to rebuild. This\nmeant either mass slaughter or forced relocation and/or slavery. It can be\nargued that slavery at that time was the more humane option." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSince slaves often became part of the owners' economy (or military), it\ncould be argued that the relations were in fact two-edged. During the\ngrowth of the Roman Empire, it became more and more dependend on\nslave-labor. In fact, in later centuries, big parts of the Roman economy\nwere run by ex-slaves. The nobility's children were educated by (greek)\nslaves.\n\"Slavery is a mode of cultural transmission\", says Kenneth Toomey in\n\"Earthly Powers\", and it's a fact. So, while accepting the moral evil in\nslavery, we still may look at the factual relations between owner(s) and\nowned as a little more complex.\n\nGeorg" } ] } ] }