{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4364", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4364, "subject": "urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2005-02-08T12:52:47+00:00", "last": "2005-02-09T08:21:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<0E50DE328EBD6F4FA7F07A31A12AE34F239C66@MCLNEXVS02.resource.ds.bah.com>", "from": { "name": "Taylor Peter", "address": "taylor_peter at bah.com" }, "date": "2005-02-08T12:52:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi - I'm new to the list; I found your allusion to \"Wolfe's theory\nregarding the pagan gods\" very interesting. I believe Wolfe explores\nthis quite a bit in the Urth/Long/Short Sun series as well - would\nanyone care to elaborate on it? \n\nThanks\n-Peter" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 8\nDate: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:27:16 +0000\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Wizard - Bright shadows & Empty Infernos\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\n\n\nIt struck me as intriguing how the Overcyn appeared while Able was\nwearing \nthe helmet. Further hints of Wolfe's theory regarding the pagan gods?\n \n\nI think so. I've tried to think of a less obvious explanation but none \npresents itself. \n\n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005101c50e24$84c483d0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-08T13:24:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "<0E50DE328EBD6F4FA7F07A31A12AE34F239C66@MCLNEXVS02.resource.ds.bah.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It struck me as intriguing how the Overcyn appeared while Able was\nwearing \nthe helmet. Further hints of Wolfe's theory regarding the pagan gods?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume you are talking about Valfather appearing as \"a bright shadow\"?\nVery Platonic. Perhaps it is a Scholastic view of the gods?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601c50e24$e84848b0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-02-08T13:26:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "<0E50DE328EBD6F4FA7F07A31A12AE34F239C66@MCLNEXVS02.resource.ds.bah.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My recollection is that Wolfe has stated that the pagan gods actually\nexisted, and were in effect, demons. This is, I think, a conservative but\northodox position within the Catholic Church.\n\nOn the other hand, the Overcyns don't appear to be demons, and appearing as\na blaze of light when viewed with the Helmet of True Seeing (sorry, too much\nD&D in my youth) seems more to indicate that they are godlike rather than\ndemonic.\n\nWolfe's conception of the worlds in Wizard Knight is that each is made of\nthe leftovers of the one higher up, which to my mind would indicate that the\nOvercyns are godlike but not as godlike as (e.g.) Michael, and still less\ngodlike than the Highest God.\n\nSo in short, I think that Wolfe's thinking on the matter (at least as\nexpressed in his fiction) has refined itself since his comments about the\npagan gods, which I believe were contemporaneous with _Soldier in the Mist_.\nOf course, the Overcyns also seem to be somewhat nicer than the Greek gods,\nand nicer than the actual Norse pantheon.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: \"Taylor Peter\" \nHi - I'm new to the list; I found your allusion to \"Wolfe's theory\nregarding the pagan gods\" very interesting. I believe Wolfe explores\nthis quite a bit in the Urth/Long/Short Sun series as well - would\nanyone care to elaborate on it?\n\nThanks\n-Peter" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-08T13:32:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "<0E50DE328EBD6F4FA7F07A31A12AE34F239C66@MCLNEXVS02.resource.ds.bah.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Taylor Peter writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi - I'm new to the list; I found your allusion to \"Wolfe's theory\nregarding the pagan gods\" very interesting. I believe Wolfe explores\nthis quite a bit in the Urth/Long/Short Sun series as well - would\nanyone care to elaborate on it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nIt's the pattern of the universe as diagrammed in the WIZARD KNIGHT. \n\nWolfe imagines the \"pagan gods\" as being of a lower order of being than the \nOne god, but still divine. \n\nYet he imagines also there is one perfect god over all. \n\nI don't know if he literally believes this (I doubt so) or if it's a \nwriter's construct. \n\n \n\nThe idea has many literary and historical sources, but the most important \nrecent one is probably Tolkien and his EA / Valar / Maiar who act in ways \nvery like the One God / Kleos / Overcyns \n\n\nIn a literary sense it's a nod to the origins of European Catholicism (and \nhence our whole Western culture) as syncretised Christianised paganism " } ] }, { "message_id": "<006001c50e26$3fc18380$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-08T13:36:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "<003601c50e24$e84848b0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My recollection is that Wolfe has stated that the pagan gods actually\nexisted, and were in effect, demons. This is, I think, a conservative but\northodox position within the Catholic Church." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was the Apostle Paul who suggested that the pagan gods were\ndemons. In the only quote I know of about this, Wolfe said he believed that\nthey existed but the only mistake was in worshipping them. I haven't\nrechecked the quote but I don't think he elaborated more except to say his\nideas were contrary to the RCC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So in short, I think that Wolfe's thinking on the matter (at least as\nexpressed in his fiction) has refined itself since his comments about the\npagan gods, which I believe were contemporaneous with _Soldier in the\nMist_.\nOf course, the Overcyns also seem to be somewhat nicer than the Greek gods,\nand nicer than the actual Norse pantheon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Weren't the gods in the Soldier novels at least as god-like as the Overcyns?\nNow the gods of the Whorl-- *they* were demons.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-09T06:49:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "<005101c50e24$84c483d0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I assume you are talking about Valfather appearing as \"a bright shadow\"?\nVery Platonic. Perhaps it is a Scholastic view of the gods?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But how does the Lothar/Loki fit into \nthat? Maybe as an expression of the One's (more Neoplatonic than Platonic \nhere; oh well) more playful (thus apparently capricious) side?\n\nIorwerth" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004b01c50ec3$791a8580$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-09T08:21:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I assume you are talking about Valfather appearing as \"a bright shadow\"?\nVery Platonic. Perhaps it is a Scholastic view of the gods?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But how does the Lothar/Loki fit into\nthat? Maybe as an expression of the One's (more Neoplatonic than Platonic\nhere; oh well) more playful (thus apparently capricious) side?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't think we ever saw Lothur. Who knows what he would have looked\nlike to Able? Lothur's origin in Wolfe's world is as confused as it is in\nNorse mythology. In THE WIZARD is called Valfather's youngest son, but some\nsay he was among those who came from Skai. In Norse mythology Loki also\nsometimes seems to be Odin by another name or an even a much older god.\n\nIn THE WIZARD universe, there is evil because TMHG wants them to be\ndifferent from himself, and for that to be, they must be wrong in someway.\nPerhaps Lothur is just *more* different than the other Overcyn.\n\nI think Lothur's mysteriousness in THE WIZARD probably reflects Wolfe's own\nambivalence regarding his nature and the ultimate value of myth. I mean,\njust because Wolfe believes the pagan gods were \"real\", doesn't mean he\naccepts the stories about them as objectively true.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }