Subject: (urth) RE: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13

From: Taylor Peter <taylor_peter at bah.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:52:47 +0000

Hi - I'm new to the list; I found your allusion to "Wolfe's theory
regarding the pagan gods" very interesting. I believe Wolfe explores
this quite a bit in the Urth/Long/Short Sun series as well - would
anyone care to elaborate on it? 

Thanks
-Peter

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:27:16 +0000
From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (urth) The Wizard - Bright shadows & Empty Infernos
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <E1CyYCq-000OKw-BL at oceanus.uk.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"

> 
> It struck me as intriguing how the Overcyn appeared while Able was
wearing 
> the helmet.  Further hints of Wolfe's theory regarding the pagan gods?

I think so.  I've tried to think of a less obvious explanation but none 
presents itself. 

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End of urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 6, Issue 13
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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:24:08 +0000

>>the helmet.  Further hints of Wolfe's theory regarding the pagan gods?

I assume you are talking about Valfather appearing as "a bright shadow"?
Very Platonic. Perhaps it is a Scholastic view of the gods?

---

From: David Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:26:43 +0000

My recollection is that Wolfe has stated that the pagan gods actually
existed, and were in effect, demons. This is, I think, a conservative but
orthodox position within the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, the Overcyns don't appear to be demons, and appearing as
a blaze of light when viewed with the Helmet of True Seeing (sorry, too much
D&D in my youth) seems more to indicate that they are godlike rather than
demonic.

Wolfe's conception of the worlds in Wizard Knight is that each is made of
the leftovers of the one higher up, which to my mind would indicate that the
Overcyns are godlike but not as godlike as (e.g.) Michael, and still less
godlike than the Highest God.

So in short, I think that Wolfe's thinking on the matter (at least as
expressed in his fiction) has refined itself since his comments about the
pagan gods, which I believe were contemporaneous with _Soldier in the Mist_.
Of course, the Overcyns also seem to be somewhat nicer than the Greek gods,
and nicer than the actual Norse pantheon.

-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Taylor Peter" <taylor_peter at bah.com>

Thanks
-Peter

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:32:37 +0000

> anyone care to elaborate on it? 

It's the pattern of the universe as diagrammed in the WIZARD KNIGHT. 

Wolfe imagines the "pagan gods" as being of a lower order of being than the 
One god, but still divine. 

Yet he imagines also there is one perfect god over all. 

I don't know if he literally believes this (I doubt so) or if it's a 
writer's construct. 

The idea has many literary and historical sources, but the most important 
recent one is probably Tolkien and his EA / Valar / Maiar who act in ways 
very like the One God / Kleos / Overcyns 

In a literary sense it's a nod to the origins of European Catholicism (and 
hence our whole Western culture) as syncretised Christianised paganism

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:36:31 +0000

>orthodox position within the Catholic Church.

I think it was the Apostle Paul who suggested that the pagan gods were
demons. In the only quote I know of about this, Wolfe said he believed that
they existed but the only mistake was in worshipping them. I haven't
rechecked the quote but I don't think he elaborated more except to say his
ideas were contrary to the RCC.

>and nicer than the actual Norse pantheon.

Weren't the gods in the Soldier novels at least as god-like as the Overcyns?
Now the gods of the Whorl-- *they* were demons.

~ Crush

---

From: Iorwerth Thomas <iorweththomas at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:49:56 +0000

>From: "James Wynn" <thewynns at earthlink.net>

>Very Platonic. Perhaps it is a Scholastic view of the gods?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  But how does the Lothar/Loki fit into 
that?  Maybe as an expression of the One's (more Neoplatonic than Platonic 
here; oh well) more playful (thus apparently capricious) side?

Iorwerth

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:21:59 +0000

>here; oh well) more playful (thus apparently capricious) side?

Well, I don't think we ever saw Lothur. Who knows what he would have looked
like to Able? Lothur's origin in Wolfe's world is as confused as it is in
Norse mythology. In THE WIZARD is called Valfather's youngest son, but some
say he was among those who came from Skai.  In Norse mythology Loki also
sometimes seems to be Odin by another name or an even a much older god.

In THE WIZARD universe, there is evil because TMHG wants them to be
different from himself, and for that to be, they must be wrong in someway.
Perhaps Lothur is just *more* different than the other Overcyn.

I think Lothur's mysteriousness in THE WIZARD probably reflects Wolfe's own
ambivalence regarding his nature and the ultimate value of myth. I mean,
just because Wolfe believes the pagan gods were "real", doesn't mean he
accepts the stories about them as objectively true.

~ Crush