{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4367", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4367, "subject": "Hanging Out with the Dream King", "messages": 5, "voices": 2, "first": "2005-02-11T17:10:38+00:00", "last": "2005-02-16T20:22:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-11T17:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanging Out with the Dream King", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A book that just came out, _Hanging Out with the Dream King: Conversations\nwith Neil Gaiman and His Collaborators_ by Joseph McCabe (pub. by\nFantagraphics Books) has a six-page interview with Gene Wolfe (and a\nphoto!). The interview doesn't confine itself to Gaiman or his collaboration\nwith Wolfe (_A Walking Tour of the Shambles_, iirc), but discusses Wolfe's\nown writing. The most interesting thing Wolfe said, to me, was \"It seems to\nme that it is wrong to write propaganda that is not clearly propaganda.\"\nThis in response to a question on Wolfe's use of religious themes, iirc.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<420D5B90.6040807@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-11T17:27:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanging Out with the Dream King", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you give some context there Adam?\nI'm not quite sure how to take that comment: does it mean he\nregrets even a little not making it glaringly obvious the religious\ncontent, and his fringey religious beliefs in particular (I think\nI'm justified in saying fringy; I've heard time and again that his Catholic\nviewpoints are practically pre-Vatican II. But I haven't gleaned enough\non my own to appraise this view, so if someone wants to correct me, go \nahead.)\nOr should I take it as a barb against the C.S. Lewis type writers?\n\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nA book that just came out, _Hanging Out with the Dream King: Conversations\nwith Neil Gaiman and His Collaborators_ by Joseph McCabe (pub. by\nFantagraphics Books) has a six-page interview with Gene Wolfe (and a\nphoto!). The interview doesn't confine itself to Gaiman or his collaboration\nwith Wolfe (_A Walking Tour of the Shambles_, iirc), but discusses Wolfe's\nown writing. The most interesting thing Wolfe said, to me, was \"It seems to\nme that it is wrong to write propaganda that is not clearly propaganda.\"\nThis in response to a question on Wolfe's use of religious themes, iirc.\n\n--Adam\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-13T08:01:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanging Out with the Dream King", "in_reply_to": "<420D5B90.6040807@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/11/05 7:27 PM, maru at marudubshinki at gmail.com wrote:\nCould you give some context there Adam?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interviewer mentions Wolfe's use of the \"concept of the messiah\" as a\ntheme, and asks him how he has been able to keep his \"emotions ... [from]\nblock[ing] the intellectual examination [of the concept] ... where so many\nother writers failed to do so.\"\n\nWolfe answers in part: \"I'm not sure that it's anything that I have done; I\nthink it's part of my character. It's innate. It seems to me that it is\nwrong to write propaganda that is not clearly propaganda. I teach writing\nfrom time to time, and you get a certain number of people who basically want\nto write what's basically propaganda for some cause or other. Or some church\nor other -- I have a Mormon friend, and when he tries to write fiction, his\ncharacters lecture on Mormonism when the lectures on Mormonism have nothing\nto do with the story, frankly. Someone asked Avram Davidson, 'Why aren't any\nof your characters Jewish?' ... He said, 'They all are.' He wasn't pushing\nJudaism, but he was writing with what he was, which was a Jew. And I think I\nwrite as what I am.\"\n\nWhile his meaning isn't totally evident, he's drawing a distinction between\nwriting as a Catholic (for example), which is desirable if you're a\nCatholic, and writing Catholic propaganda in the guise of fiction. I'd say\nhis practice as a writer bears this out as far as religion is concerned,\nexcept for a couple of short stories where the devotional aspect is pretty\nobvious: I've never been convinced by claims that his novels are intended to\nillustrate or proselytize for Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, when it\ncomes to politics it's a lot harder to reconcile his practice with what he's\nsaying here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not quite sure how to take that comment: does it mean he\nregrets even a little not making it glaringly obvious the religious\ncontent, and his fringey religious beliefs in particular (I think\nI'm justified in saying fringy; I've heard time and again that his Catholic\nviewpoints are practically pre-Vatican II. But I haven't gleaned enough\non my own to appraise this view, so if someone wants to correct me, go\nahead.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has said that his Catholicism is pre-Vatican II, iirc, but I wouldn't say\nthat makes him fringey. That's the Catholicism he was raised in, after all,\nand I would imagine that even today there are a substantial number of\nCatholics who by and large prefer the pre-Vatican practices. (There's a book\ncalled _The Smoke of Satan_, iirc, which is an entertaining look at some\ngenuinely fringey Catholics: people who believe that the popes from John\nXXIII on have been illegitimate, for example.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or should I take it as a barb against the C.S. Lewis type writers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could certainly convict Lewis of \"writ[ing] what's basically\npropaganda,\" at least in some of his novels. But it's not clear to me that\nthis is any less true of Chesterton, whom Wolfe admires.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-13T08:57:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanging Out with the Dream King", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like he's thinking of Orson Scott Card there. Or at least,\nthat's the only prominent Mormon writer who brings his religion into\ndiscussion that i can think of, anyway.\nBut when I said 'fringe-y' I was thinking Mel Gibson & pater type.\nIncidentally, what do you mean by: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, when it\ncomes to politics it's a lot harder to reconcile his practice with what he's\nsaying here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "~Maru\n\nOn Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:05:40 -0600, Adam Stephanides\n wrote:\n.... snippity...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe answers in part: \"I'm not sure that it's anything that I have done; I\nthink it's part of my character. It's innate. It seems to me that it is\nwrong to write propaganda that is not clearly propaganda. I teach writing\nfrom time to time, and you get a certain number of people who basically want\nto write what's basically propaganda for some cause or other. Or some church\nor other -- I have a Mormon friend, and when he tries to write fiction, his\ncharacters lecture on Mormonism when the lectures on Mormonism have nothing\nto do with the story, frankly. Someone asked Avram Davidson, 'Why aren't any\nof your characters Jewish?' ... He said, 'They all are.' He wasn't pushing\nJudaism, but he was writing with what he was, which was a Jew. And I think I\nwrite as what I am.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-16T20:22:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hanging Out with the Dream King", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/13/05 10:57 AM, Maru Dubshinki at marudubshinki at gmail.com wrote:\nIncidentally, what do you mean by:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, when it\ncomes to politics it's a lot harder to reconcile his practice with what he's\nsaying here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking of stories like \"The Blue Mouse,\" \"Bluesberry Jam,\" and the\nfairly recent one, whose title I forget, where the protagonist is on the run\nfrom a female IRS agent.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }