{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/437", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 437, "subject": "Jonas & Hethor & Thecla", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-03-24T08:51:44+00:00", "last": "1998-03-24T15:21:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-03-24T08:51:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas & Hethor & Thecla", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quotes from C. Culver and Tony Ellis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing that KLS's name is not Korean, but\nMantis\nbelieves the language of *Jonas* is not Korean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The passage in Conciliator (Chapter X) where Jonas apparently\ntells Severian something of his origins is interesting. He says\nthat his father was a craftsman, talks of having two parents,\nand of his home being a seacoast town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably his \"craftsman\" father was the engineer who built\nhim. But two parents? Who was the other? Another\nengineer perhaps, or maybe this is an oblique reference to\nthe machinery with which he was made. Another possibility\nis that two android parents can build a child, as they do\nin the Long Sun books.\n\nMy point is, Jonas could be sticking very closely to the truth,\nin which case we could assume that the southern seacost home\nstory is also as good as true. It's another argument against\nJonas being\\speaking Asian, basically. He could have\npicked up such a language later in life, of course, but I still\nhave faith in my computer-speak theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just reread Concilliator, chapters XIII-XVII (, the notules, the\nanteroom, the escape and Jonas's disappearence into the mirrors. And I think\nthat wherever Jonas grew up, it was not on Urth, though it may have been on\nEarth (he knows \"Alice\" and the Theseus story, though this could simply\npoint to a good ship's library). Every time he refers to Urth, it is as a\nport, not as his home. Nor do I think he is Korean, though he may be able to\nspeak it when he is reminded of KLS (Wolfe probably speaks some himself,\nfrom his own time in Korea).\n\nThere are parts in the books when Urth does seem to be our Earth grown\nancient--for example when it is noted that the planets have been renamed\nbecause it seemed unseemly that the red one was named for war. Or at the\nRobert and Marie exhibit. But if this were so, Inire's mirrors would be\ntime-travel devices if Jonas were to get to his goal, and they seem instead\nto be to be gates to another place (yes, I know how trite the \"parallel\nuniverse\" thing sounds, but really, what else?) Robert and Marie, too, could\nhave come from that place. Hethor's beasts seem to come from yet another\nplace, but that could certainly be from somewhere in Yesod.\n\nJonas is entirely familiar with what the mirrors do, so he must have used\nthem before.\n\nOn another subject, It has always bothered me that Severian seems to take\nfor granted that his relationship with the inner Thecla is unique. But the\nalzabo drug would be expected to cause a similar effect in everyone who ate\nthat meal. Moreover, Vodalus & Co. have done this before, with other\ncorpses. I suppose that one could explain this by saying that the alzabo\neffect is ordinarily powerful but temporary (\"a fellow mortal who will live\nagain--strongly, for a time--in us\")---like an LSD experience, say---but\nthat the presence of the Claw, or something in his heritage, somehow\nimprints Thecla on Sev in a unique way. Nevertheless, this isn't explained,\nand it's weird to think of a couple of dozen or so people all experiencing\nThecla the way Sev does.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-03-24T10:39:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jonas & Hethor & Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Alice Turner wrote:\nOn another subject, It has always bothered me that Severian seems to take\nfor granted that his relationship with the inner Thecla is unique. But the\nalzabo drug would be expected to cause a similar effect in everyone who ate\nthat meal. Moreover, Vodalus & Co. have done this before, with other\ncorpses. I suppose that one could explain this by saying that the alzabo\neffect is ordinarily powerful but temporary (\"a fellow mortal who will live\nagain--strongly, for a time--in us\")---like an LSD experience, say---but\nthat the presence of the Claw, or something in his heritage, somehow\nimprints Thecla on Sev in a unique way. Nevertheless, this isn't explained,\nand it's weird to think of a couple of dozen or so people all experiencing\nThecla the way Sev does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder if there could be some difference attributable to Severian's\nmemory. Perhaps for everyone else the sharing of Thecla is a fleeting\nthing, but since Severian can't forget, Thecla is always with him. Have\nyou read \"The Hemmingway Hoax\" by Joe Haldeman? A nifty novella featuring\na protagonist with an eidetic memory that has an interesting side effect.\n\nExcept that all the autarchs are supposed to share all the memories of the\nprevious ones. So we could still save the idea if the autarch's alzabo is\nmore powerful, so that autarchs always have the experience that Severian\nonly has with Thecla because of his perfect memory.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-03-24T15:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Jonas & Hethor & Thecla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n24/03/98\n 15:23\n RE>Jonas & Hethor & Thecla" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\n...I think\nthat wherever Jonas grew up, it was not on Urth, though it may have been on\nEarth (he knows \"Alice\" and the Theseus story, though this could simply\npoint to a good ship's library). Every time he refers to Urth, it is as a\nport, not as his home." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Jonas is a sailor, so it would be natural for him to regard a ship,\nor perhaps all space, as his home.\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...But if this were so, Inire's mirrors would be\ntime-travel devices if Jonas were to get to his goal, and they seem instead\nto be to be gates to another place (yes, I know how trite the \"parallel\nuniverse\" thing sounds, but really, what else?) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always assumed that Jonas simply escapes to a -place- where he\ncan be repaired, rather than a time. (A place in our universe, that is,\nrather than some other.) One of the worlds of the Hierodules, perhaps,\nor some other planet that still has a viable technology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert and Marie, too, could\nhave come from that place. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think if they come from anywhere it's the past rather than a\nparallel Earth, since it's implied pretty strongly that the \nBotanical Gardens extend into Urth's past. But don't forget\nthat they may simply be \"chant-caught\" contempories of\nSeverian. I've always loved that scene for its tantalising ambiguity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...the presence of the Claw, or something in his heritage, somehow\nimprints Thecla on Sev in a unique way. Nevertheless, this isn't explained," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, I could swear that there's at least one point where Sev or\nsomeone -does- assert that the Claw resurected Thecla within\nhim. But of course I have no idea where . I'll start hunting." } ] } ] }