{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4370", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4370, "subject": "Sinew's parentage", "messages": 14, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-02-21T15:29:29+00:00", "last": "2005-02-24T14:32:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<005901c5186d$2f4ec340$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-21T15:29:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In case Kieran's post doesn't \"take\" I'll offer this one.\n\nIs Sinew be Marrow's son?\n\nConsider:\n1) Sinew doesn't \"quite\" fit with Horn's name. Not the way Hoof and Hide do.\nBut it does work with Marrow.\n\n2) Marrow bailed out Horn and Nettle when their farming venture failed, so\nthey could get a fresh start. He didn't sell them into slavery as he did\nwith others. What did Marrow get in return?\n\n3) When Horn leaves New Viron in his boat, Marrow tosses his cane into the\nboat _just as Sinew tossed his knife_ as Horn left Lizard Island. I believe\nthe text makes this precise comparison.\n\n4) Horn harbors a distinct resentment for Sinew that is not explainable by\nany of Sinew's actions.\n\nWell?\n\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-21T15:47:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<005901c5186d$2f4ec340$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This isn't as good as a reasoned argument for the subject, but for what it's \nworth I got the same impression fairly directly - that is, the scenario with \nHorn/Marrow/Nettle had taken place, and that Horn strongly suspected he was \nnot Sinew's father. I almost want to say \"knew\", but there's a sort of deep \nambivalence in Horn about his own relationship with Sinew that gave me the \nimpression that he had some doubts that he might have been Sinew's father \nafter all.\n\nI don't know that there's anything there that establishes beyond a doubt who \nSinew's father is. It shouldn't matter, ultimately, and I don't think this \nis something Horn needs to discover because he knows it from the beginning; \nthis isn't the only thread of the book which brings out a tension between \nknowing the right way to behave/live and actually living that way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In case Kieran's post doesn't \"take\" I'll offer this one.\n\nIs Sinew be Marrow's son?\n\nConsider:\n1) Sinew doesn't \"quite\" fit with Horn's name. Not the way Hoof and Hide \ndo.\nBut it does work with Marrow.\n\n2) Marrow bailed out Horn and Nettle when their farming venture failed, so\nthey could get a fresh start. He didn't sell them into slavery as he did\nwith others. What did Marrow get in return?\n\n3) When Horn leaves New Viron in his boat, Marrow tosses his cane into the\nboat _just as Sinew tossed his knife_ as Horn left Lizard Island. I believe\nthe text makes this precise comparison.\n\n4) Horn harbors a distinct resentment for Sinew that is not explainable by\nany of Sinew's actions.\n\nWell?\n\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-21T18:09:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<005901c5186d$2f4ec340$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Sinew Marrow's son?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider:\n1) Sinew doesn't \"quite\" fit with Horn's name. Not the way Hoof and Hide \ndo.\nBut it does work with Marrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure I agree. Most cultures that process their own meat (as opposed to \nshopping at a supermarket) consider horns, hooves, hides (skin) and sinews \n(tendons) to be inedible; all, however, can be rendered down into gelatin. \nSo \"sinew\" at least for me seems part of a logical subset of possible filial \nnames.\n\n\"Marrow,\" on the other hand, may be meant to suggest another crimelord in \nanother Viron; i.e., Blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) Horn harbors a distinct resentment for Sinew that is not explainable by\nany of Sinew's actions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The -ew ending of Sinew may be a Roman-a-clef-type-clue that he represents \nWolfe's estranged son Matthew--something at least family members and close \nfriends would recognize.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c518aa$282a60a0$ee3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-02-21T22:46:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nIs Sinew be Marrow's son?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. Sinew was conceived in the Calde's Palace on the _Whorl_. (EXODUS,\n384) Marrow had nothing to do with it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00c001c51923$6143f300$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-22T13:13:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c518aa$282a60a0$ee3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is Sinew be Marrow's son?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, no. Sinew was conceived in the Calde's Palace on the _Whorl_. (EXODUS,\n384) Marrow had nothing to do with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you talking about paperback or hardcover? I'm looking at the HC version\non Amazon Search Inside, and I don't see any reference to Nettle being\npregnant on that page.\n\nhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812539052/ref=sib_vae_pg_384/002-9285863-1383208?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=384&p=S0B2&twc=1&checkSum=KirphXU9BP8A6XV2%2B8XJNacZmoGJyf6GB6Ximl2kq88%3D#reader-page\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6C04FE95.3F742092.0299E010@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-02-22T15:20:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<00c001c51923$6143f300$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Is Sinew be Marrow's son?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy Lackey says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, no. Sinew was conceived in the Calde's \nPalace on the _Whorl_. (EXODUS,\n384) Marrow had nothing to do with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you talking about paperback or hardcover? \nI'm looking at the HC version on Amazon Search \nInside, and I don't see any reference to Nettle \nbeing pregnant on that page." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I say: be careful when you argue with Roy Lackey \nabout points of fact in Wolfe novels. He has, as \nI've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly\nalways being correct. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the amazon site searchable edition, Page " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "430. \"... Within that point of light Sinew\nhad been conceived, in all probability, in the \nCalde's Palace. It did not seem possible.\"\n\n-- Stone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00ce01c5193d$40ea6610$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-22T16:18:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<6C04FE95.3F742092.0299E010@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I say: be careful when you argue with Roy Lackey\nabout points of fact in Wolfe novels. He has, as\nI've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly\nalways being correct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not arguing with him (yet). But I did not find the information at the\nlocation he provided, so it is possible that he may have already tipped his\nhand to his mortality.\n\nI have three things to say for the record:\n\n1) I opened this question, not because I have a hard opinion, but because I\nconsidered the question dubious.\n\n2) I remember having problem with the timeline for this theory from\nsomething Horn said in \"The Short Sun\", but I can't remember where or what\nit was exactly. Yet the other issues still persist. Something is going on\nthere and Sinew as Marrow's son would definitely clear a lot up.\n(Incidentally there are problems with the timeline in SS no matter what you\nbelieve, such as \"how long has Horn been away?\")\n\n3) I've found Roy to be remarkable in his ability to recall a pertinent and\nimportant quote, but as human as the rest of us in his analysis. I would\ncertainly not scare anyone away from disagreeing with him before they've\neven started, and I can't imagine that he would want that either.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003801c5196e$42b3be20$373ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-02-22T22:09:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<00ce01c5193d$40ea6610$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush quoted Stone Ox and wrote:\nI say: be careful when you argue with Roy Lackey\nabout points of fact in Wolfe novels. He has, as\nI've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly\nalways being correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not arguing with him (yet). But I did not find the information at the\nlocation he provided, so it is possible that he may have already tipped his\nhand to his mortality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What can I say? I stand by my original statement. Stone Ox gave you the\npertinent quote. It comes from page 384 of EXODUS FROM THE LONG SUN, Tor,\nHardback, First Edition: November 1996. It's the last page of the book. If\nAmazon says something different, then they're wrong, or both my wife and I\nare hallucinating. Am I the only one here who bought the book?\n\nSheesh!\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-22T23:37:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<003801c5196e$42b3be20$373ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What can I say? I stand by my original statement. Stone Ox gave you the\npertinent quote. It comes from page 384 of EXODUS FROM THE LONG SUN, Tor,\nHardback, First Edition: November 1996. It's the last page of the book. If\nAmazon says something different, then they're wrong, or both my wife and I\nare hallucinating. Am I the only one here who bought the book?\n\nSheesh!\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The rest of us have sort of gotten by on reading a couple pages at a time \nfrom Amazon's inside the book search, and we share screenshots to paste the \nthing together. It takes a lot of work, but we have a lot of willpower and \nfree time, and not enough cash to buy a copy of the book and scan it.\n\nSeriously though, maybe Wolfe needs to be treated like the classics where \nthe original page number appears in the margin so that you can track the \nsame references in different editions. I didn't even try to look up your \nreference because I have the latest trade paperback versions and I assume \nthe page numbers are different.\n\nSomehow I don't think anyone anticipated anyone citing a sci-fi book to the \nextent that we do." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15BCFE76.541C395F.0299E010@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-02-23T15:03:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Crush," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I say: be careful when you argue with Roy Lackey\nabout points of fact in Wolfe novels. He has, as\nI've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly\nalways being correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not arguing with him (yet). But I did not find\nthe information at the location he provided, so it\nis possible that he may have already tipped his hand\nto his mortality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou haven't yet. The Amazon search copy (even the one\nlinked from the hardback edition) has the page numbers\nfrom the mass market paperback." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have three things to say for the record:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n... snipped." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) I've found Roy to be remarkable in his ability to\nrecall a pertinent and important quote, but as human\nas the rest of us in his analysis. I would certainly not\nscare anyone away from disagreeing with him before they've\neven started, and I can't imagine that he would want that\neither." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI wasn't trying to scare anyone away from disagreeing with\nhim. I did say points of fact, by which I meant to exclude\ninterpretations. There are at least two or three aspects of\nthe interpretation of Peace that I think Roy is wrong about\n(and several others that we've argued about that I've since\ncome around to his side on). Also, you're taking my post\nmore personally than I intended it. My intention was to\ncompliment Roy on his remarkable ability you note above, and\nnot to make a dig at you. My apologies if you interpreted it otherwise.\n \n-- Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000f01c51a0c$e0106df0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-23T17:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<15BCFE76.541C395F.0299E010@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had just sat down to post something about this and looky here..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stone Ox wrote:\nI'm not arguing with him (yet)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You haven't yet. The Amazon search copy (even the one\nlinked from the hardback edition) has the page numbers\nfrom the mass market paperback." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. I was able to find with the quote you provided. I missed it the first\ntime through. It had a \">\" at the start of if and I took for part of my\npost. Sorry about that. And thanks for the quote.\n\nAnd my last post came off more peevish than I intended. I'm working a lot of\nhours lately. Sorry 'bout that too. It might have contributed to the\npeevishness of Roy's post, but I'm not sure about that.\n\nNow as for that quote:\n\"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived, in all\nprobability, in the\nCalde's Palace. It did not seem possible.\" pg 430\n\nThat's a very good point and I don't have a ready answer for it.\n\nHowever, when I was shaving this morning I remembered something about that\n\"timeline problem\" in the SS that I mentioned in my post. When I was reading\nthe SS, I could not get the idea that Sinew's name seemed all wrong for\nHorn's son, but worked quite well for SILK's son. A sinew is a kind of\nthread and so is silk. And both names start with the same letter. But Horn\ngave a description of the timeline of Sinew's birth that made me convinced\n(aside from the normal disinclination's to the theory) that it was\nimpossible for Silk to be Sinew's father. Now Roy has reminded me of a\nreference I had forgotten about that puts Silk back on the spot.\n\nNow Roy (if I'm at all familiar with Roy and I am) will hit the roof a this.\nBut (mournings glory's assurances aside) Sinew's name has always smelled\nsuspicious to me. I suppose when I get back to Texas, I'll have re-read the\nLS and SS just to find the timeline problem that puts Sinew's conception\noutside of the Whorl.\n\nOh, before anyone mentions it, I'm well aware that Horn says Sinew looks\nexactly like him -- \"devilishly\" so (devilishly? Why should it be surprising\nat all?). But that doesn't surprise me in the least even if Sinew is not\nHorn's natural son, for reasons I'll be better able to explain if I can\ndecide -- to the degree of certainty that Roy has -- who Sinew's bio-dad is.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050223172251ef3dd3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-23T17:22:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<000f01c51a0c$e0106df0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Horn, Hoof, Hide and Sinew are all not-usually-eatable \nparts of an animal (not considered \"meat\"). They're also all\nparts that would be considered important by a maker of pen,\nink, and paper.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:05:04 -0500, James Wynn wrote:\nI had just sat down to post something about this and looky here...\n\nStone Ox wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not arguing with him (yet)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You haven't yet. The Amazon search copy (even the one\nlinked from the hardback edition) has the page numbers\nfrom the mass market paperback." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah. I was able to find with the quote you provided. I missed it the first\ntime through. It had a \">\" at the start of if and I took for part of my\npost. Sorry about that. And thanks for the quote.\n\nAnd my last post came off more peevish than I intended. I'm working a lot of\nhours lately. Sorry 'bout that too. It might have contributed to the\npeevishness of Roy's post, but I'm not sure about that.\n\nNow as for that quote:\n\"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived, in all\nprobability, in the\nCalde's Palace. It did not seem possible.\" pg 430\n\nThat's a very good point and I don't have a ready answer for it.\n\nHowever, when I was shaving this morning I remembered something about that\n\"timeline problem\" in the SS that I mentioned in my post. When I was reading\nthe SS, I could not get the idea that Sinew's name seemed all wrong for\nHorn's son, but worked quite well for SILK's son. A sinew is a kind of\nthread and so is silk. And both names start with the same letter. But Horn\ngave a description of the timeline of Sinew's birth that made me convinced\n(aside from the normal disinclination's to the theory) that it was\nimpossible for Silk to be Sinew's father. Now Roy has reminded me of a\nreference I had forgotten about that puts Silk back on the spot.\n\nNow Roy (if I'm at all familiar with Roy and I am) will hit the roof a this.\nBut (mournings glory's assurances aside) Sinew's name has always smelled\nsuspicious to me. I suppose when I get back to Texas, I'll have re-read the\nLS and SS just to find the timeline problem that puts Sinew's conception\noutside of the Whorl.\n\nOh, before anyone mentions it, I'm well aware that Horn says Sinew looks\nexactly like him -- \"devilishly\" so (devilishly? Why should it be surprising\nat all?). But that doesn't surprise me in the least even if Sinew is not\nHorn's natural son, for reasons I'll be better able to explain if I can\ndecide -- to the degree of certainty that Roy has -- who Sinew's bio-dad is.\n\n~ Crush\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Philip Loguinov", "address": "philipov at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-23T18:42:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050223172251ef3dd3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, this is my first post here, and it's a shame I don't have time to\nsay more :)\n\n\"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived,\nin all probability, in the Calde's Palace. It did not seem possible.\"\n\nIn all probability. It did not seem possible. Especially by wolfe\nstandards, this doesn't seem like very good evidence to place Sinew's\nconception. With so many things the narrator is certain of being\nfalse, how can we use as fact the conjectures even he doubts? I think\nall this quote tells us is that Horn doesn't actually know when Sinew\nwas concieved." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "[] Philip Loguinov\n[] philipov at gmail.com\n[] www.livejournal.com/users/philipov" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201c51ac0$c70e66e0$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-24T14:32:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sinew's parentage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived,\nin all probability, in the Calde's Palace. It did not seem possible.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In all probability. It did not seem possible. Especially by wolfe\nstandards, this doesn't seem like very good evidence to place Sinew's\nconception. With so many things the narrator is certain of being\nfalse, how can we use as fact the conjectures even he doubts? I think\nall this quote tells us is that Horn doesn't actually know when Sinew\nwas concieved.\nPhilip Loguinov" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My personal inclination (not ready to offer a proof yet) is that Sinew was\nconceived on the Whorl, probably in the Calde's Palace. But not as simply as\nany of us were conceived.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }