Subject: (urth) Sinew's parentage

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:29:29 +0000

In case Kieran's post doesn't "take" I'll offer this one.

Is Sinew be Marrow's son?

Consider:
1) Sinew doesn't "quite" fit with Horn's name. Not the way Hoof and Hide do.
But it does work with Marrow.

2) Marrow bailed out Horn and Nettle when their farming venture failed, so
they could get a fresh start. He didn't sell them into slavery as he did
with others. What did Marrow get in return?

3) When Horn leaves New Viron in his boat, Marrow tosses his cane into the
boat _just as Sinew tossed his knife_ as Horn left Lizard Island. I believe
the text makes this precise comparison.

4) Horn harbors a distinct resentment for Sinew that is not explainable by
any of Sinew's actions.

Well?

~ Crush

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:47:11 +0000

This isn't as good as a reasoned argument for the subject, but for what it's 
worth I got the same impression fairly directly - that is, the scenario with 
Horn/Marrow/Nettle had taken place, and that Horn strongly suspected he was 
not Sinew's father. I almost want to say "knew", but there's a sort of deep 
ambivalence in Horn about his own relationship with Sinew that gave me the 
impression that he had some doubts that he might have been Sinew's father 
after all.

I don't know that there's anything there that establishes beyond a doubt who 
Sinew's father is. It shouldn't matter, ultimately, and I don't think this 
is something Horn needs to discover because he knows it from the beginning; 
this isn't the only thread of the book which brings out a tension between 
knowing the right way to behave/live and actually living that way.

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From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:09:03 +0000

>Is Sinew Marrow's son?

>But it does work with Marrow.

Not sure I agree. Most cultures that process their own meat (as opposed to 
shopping at a supermarket) consider horns, hooves, hides (skin) and sinews 
(tendons) to be inedible; all, however, can be rendered down into gelatin. 
So "sinew" at least for me seems part of a logical subset of possible filial 
names.

"Marrow," on the other hand, may be meant to suggest another crimelord in 
another Viron; i.e., Blood.

>4) Horn harbors a distinct resentment for Sinew that is not explainable by

The -ew ending of Sinew may be a Roman-a-clef-type-clue that he represents 
Wolfe's estranged son Matthew--something at least family members and close 
friends would recognize.

msg

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:46:04 +0000

>Is Sinew be Marrow's son?

No, no. Sinew was conceived in the Calde's Palace on the _Whorl_. (EXODUS,
384) Marrow had nothing to do with it.

-Roy

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:13:43 +0000

>384) Marrow had nothing to do with it.

Are you talking about paperback or hardcover? I'm looking at the HC version
on Amazon Search Inside, and I don't see any reference to Nettle being
pregnant on that page.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0812539052/ref=sib_vae_pg_384/002-9285863-1383208?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=384&p=S0B2&twc=1&checkSum=KirphXU9BP8A6XV2%2B8XJNacZmoGJyf6GB6Ximl2kq88%3D#reader-page

~ Crush

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From: StoneOx17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:20:21 +0000

Crush asks:

> Are you talking about paperback or hardcover? 
> I'm looking at the HC version on Amazon Search 
> Inside, and I don't see any reference to Nettle 
> being pregnant on that page.

I say: be careful when you argue with Roy Lackey 
about points of fact in Wolfe novels.  He has, as 
I've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly
always being correct. 

>>From the amazon site searchable edition, Page 
430.  "... Within that point of light Sinew
had been conceived, in all probability, in the 
Calde's Palace.  It did not seem possible."

-- Stone Ox

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:18:55 +0000

>I've come to realize, the annoying habit of nearly

I'm not arguing with him (yet). But I did not find the information at the
location he provided, so it is possible that he may have already tipped his
hand to his mortality.

I have three things to say for the record:

1) I opened this question, not because I have a hard opinion, but because I
considered the question dubious.

2) I remember having problem with the timeline for this theory from
something Horn said in "The Short Sun", but I can't remember where or what
it was exactly. Yet the other issues still persist. Something is going on
there and Sinew as Marrow's son would definitely clear a lot up.
(Incidentally there are problems with the timeline in SS no matter what you
believe, such as "how long has Horn been away?")

3) I've found Roy to be remarkable in his ability to recall a pertinent and
important quote, but as human as the rest of us in his analysis. I would
certainly not scare anyone away from disagreeing with him before they've
even started, and I can't imagine that he would want that either.

~ Crush

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:09:40 +0000

>location he provided, so it is possible that he may have already tipped his

What can I say? I stand by my original statement. Stone Ox gave you the
pertinent quote. It comes from page 384 of EXODUS FROM THE LONG SUN, Tor,
Hardback, First Edition: November 1996. It's the last page of the book. If
Amazon says something different, then they're wrong, or both my wife and I
are hallucinating. Am I the only one here who bought the book?

Sheesh!

-Roy

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:37:26 +0000

>are hallucinating. Am I the only one here who bought the book?

The rest of us have sort of gotten by on reading a couple pages at a time 
from Amazon's inside the book search, and we share screenshots to paste the 
thing together. It takes a lot of work, but we have a lot of willpower and 
free time, and not enough cash to buy a copy of the book and scan it.

Seriously though, maybe Wolfe needs to be treated like the classics where 
the original page number appears in the margin so that you can track the 
same references in different editions. I didn't even try to look up your 
reference because I have the latest trade paperback versions and I assume 
the page numbers are different.

Somehow I don't think anyone anticipated anyone citing a sci-fi book to the 
extent that we do.

---

From: StoneOx17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:03:24 +0000

Hi Crush,

> I'm not arguing with him (yet). But I did not find
> the information at the location he provided, so it
> is possible that he may have already tipped his hand
> to his mortality.
                                                                                
You haven't yet.  The Amazon search copy (even the one
linked from the hardback edition) has the page numbers
from the mass market paperback.
                                                                                
> I have three things to say for the record:
                                                                                
... snipped.
                                                                                
> 3) I've found Roy to be remarkable in his ability to
> recall a pertinent and important quote, but as human
> as the rest of us in his analysis. I would certainly not
> scare anyone away from disagreeing with him before they've
                                                                                
I wasn't trying to scare anyone away from disagreeing with
him.  I did say points of fact, by which I meant to exclude
interpretations.  There are at least two or three aspects of
the interpretation of Peace that I think Roy is wrong about
(and several others that we've argued about that I've since
come around to his side on).   Also, you're taking my post
more personally than I intended it.  My intention was to
compliment Roy on his remarkable ability you note above, and
not to make a dig at you.  My apologies if you interpreted it otherwise.
                                                                                
-- Stone Ox (Peter)

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:05:07 +0000

I had just sat down to post something about this and looky here...

Stone Ox wrote:
>> I'm not arguing with him (yet).
>

Yeah. I was able to find with the quote you provided. I missed it the first
time through. It had a ">" at the start of if and I took for part of my
post. Sorry about that. And thanks for the quote.

And my last post came off more peevish than I intended. I'm working a lot of
hours lately. Sorry 'bout that too. It might have contributed to the
peevishness of Roy's post, but I'm not sure about that.

Now as for that quote:
"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived, in all
probability, in the
Calde's Palace.  It did not seem possible." pg 430

That's a very good point and I don't have a ready answer for it.

However, when I was shaving this morning I remembered something about that
"timeline problem" in the SS that I mentioned in my post. When I was reading
the SS, I could not get the idea that Sinew's name seemed all wrong for
Horn's son, but worked quite well for SILK's son. A sinew is a kind of
thread and so is silk. And both names start with the same letter. But Horn
gave a description of the timeline of Sinew's birth that made me convinced
(aside from the normal disinclination's to the theory) that it was
impossible for Silk to be Sinew's father. Now Roy has reminded me of a
reference I had forgotten about that puts Silk back on the spot.

Now Roy (if I'm at all familiar with Roy and I am) will hit the roof a this.
But (mournings glory's assurances aside) Sinew's name has always smelled
suspicious to me. I suppose when I get back to Texas, I'll have re-read the
LS and SS just to find the timeline problem that puts Sinew's conception
outside of the Whorl.

Oh, before anyone mentions it, I'm well aware that Horn says Sinew looks
exactly like him -- "devilishly" so (devilishly? Why should it be surprising
at all?). But that doesn't surprise me in the least even if Sinew is not
Horn's natural son, for reasons I'll be better able to explain if I can
decide -- to the degree of certainty that Roy has -- who Sinew's bio-dad is.

~ Crush

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:22:17 +0000

Well, Horn, Hoof, Hide and Sinew are all not-usually-eatable 
parts of an animal (not considered "meat"). They're also all
parts that would be considered important by a maker of pen,
ink, and paper.

--Dan'l

-- 
"We're going to sit on Scorsese's head"
     -- The Goodfeathers

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From: Philip Loguinov <philipov at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:42:25 +0000

Hi, this is my first post here, and it's a shame I don't have time to
say more :)

"... Within that point of light [the Whorl] Sinew had been conceived,
in all probability, in the Calde's Palace.  It did not seem possible."

In all probability. It did not seem possible. Especially by wolfe
standards, this doesn't seem like very good evidence to place Sinew's
conception. With so many things the narrator is certain of being
false, how can we use as fact the conjectures even he doubts? I think
all this quote tells us is that Horn doesn't actually know when Sinew
was concieved.

-- 
[]  Philip Loguinov
[]  philipov at gmail.com
[]  www.livejournal.com/users/philipov

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:32:57 +0000

>Philip Loguinov

My personal inclination (not ready to offer a proof yet) is that Sinew was
conceived on the Whorl, probably in the Calde's Palace. But not as simply as
any of us were conceived.

~ Crush