{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4372", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4372, "subject": "TWK: Mag?", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-02-25T00:29:46+00:00", "last": "2005-08-07T22:37:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c51b14$2a4ccfa0$fa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-02-25T00:29:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----------------------------------------------\n \"'Oh, son . . .'\n \"It was a peasant woman. I had seen many fairer, though she was fair.\n \"'You are my son.'\n \"I knew that she was wrong, and it came to me that if I were to lie upon\nthe ground, and she to bend over me, I would see her in the way I had just\nrecalled her. Then I understood that she was the fairest of women.\" (W, 263)\n---------------------------------------------------\n\nThis exchange took place in the Room of Lost Love, when Art first\nencountered Mag, and just before his rendering of her note. For me, that\nlast paragraph is the most enigmatic in TWK.\n\nIn context, the pronouns \"she\" and \"her\" can only refer to the woman who\ncalls herself Mag. In the space of an inch of text she seems to go from\nmerely a \"fair\" woman to \"the fairest of women\". How can that be?\n\nA memory was triggered in the short time it took her to say those few words,\na specific memory. If Wolfe is playing fair with us, that recollection\nshould be somewhere in the text. There is an instance where Lynnet is\nsitting by a campfire when the persona of Mag takes over, and Art lies on\nthe ground with his head in her lap while she speaks to him of her girlhood\nin America, but that doesn't happen for another 70 pages, so that can't be\nit. I even went back and read KNIGHT again, looking for the original\nincident.\n\nI found two possibilities, both of which confuse me even further. The first\nis at the beginning of the book when Art is lying on the hill looking up at\nthe \"pictures\" in the clouds, one of which is \"a beautiful lady who smiled\ndown at me\". (K, 20) The other comes when he is camped for the night with\nBerthold beside the Griffin and is \"Flat on my back after our meal\". (33)\nThen, \"A lovely, pointed face lit by great lustrous eyes like harvest moons\npeered down into mine, then vanished.\" (34) That face was green and was, of\ncourse, Disiri's. (58) During his account of his tryst with Disiri in the\ncave he wrote, \"She was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen in my life\n(she still is) and I had to shut my eyes, which made her laugh again.\" (57)\n\nI'm tempted to say that the \"beautiful lady\" was The Lady of Skai, since all\nof the other \"pictures\" he saw in the sky were otherworldly, but I can't see\nwhat she would have to do with his mother. And I refuse to believe that\nDisiri in any way, shape or form was his mother. Besides, he hadn't\nforgotten Disiri, so he knew he wouldn't find her in the Room, as he takes\npains to say. _But_, after telling Mag about his being \"taken by the Aelf\"\nand being playmate to Disiri, he realized that it was only then that his\nmemories of Aelfrice had returned. And with his memories he also found his\n\"lost\" love of the Aelf. (W, 265) He had told Parka on their first meeting\nthat \"I don't like them.\" (K, 22)\n\nSo where does that leave us? Is it merely that, upon seeing and hearing Mag,\nArt had a flash of a nondescript, early-childhood memory of his \"lost\"\nmother bending over him, and had idealized that memory of vanished Mother\ninto \"the fairest of women\", which ideal can be distinguished from the more\ncarnal \"most beautiful woman I had ever seen\"? If that's all it is, then Art\nwasn't paying attention in English class.\n\nAnyone have any other ideas?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17E2EAE8.3651DEB2.0299E010@aol.com>", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-02-28T11:51:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c51b14$2a4ccfa0$fa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" quotes (with regard to Mag)\n\n\"... it came to me that if I were to lie upon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the ground, and she to bend over me, I would see her in the way I had just\nrecalled her. Then I understood that she was the fairest of women.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and then writes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A memory was triggered in the short time it took her to say those few words,\na specific memory. If Wolfe is playing fair with us, that recollection\nshould be somewhere in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I found two possibilities, both of which confuse me even further. The first\nis at the beginning of the book when Art is lying on the hill looking up at\nthe \"pictures\" in the clouds, one of which is \"a beautiful lady who smiled\ndown at me\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm really confused here, as well. I do remember that somewhere Wolfe implies\nthat the Valfather is a stand-in for everybody's father. If that's true, maybe \nthe Lady of Skai is in some sense everybody's mother, in which case having \nMag remind Able of her would be fair.\n\nI'm also confused about whether Mythgarthr really exists, or is just an \ninternal construction of Able's (while he's really being whisked off in an\nambulance). If everything is internal, then the identification of the\nLady with his mother makes more sense. Do any defenders/opponents of \nthis interpretation want to weigh in? In fact, is Mythgarthr necessarily\neither internal or external, or could it somehow be both at once?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-02-28T12:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": "<17E2EAE8.3651DEB2.0299E010@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact, is Mythgarthr necessarily" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "either internal or external, or could it somehow be both at once?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nMythgarthyr = the clearing where tales are told \n\nMidgard = Middle World = America \n\n\nNot the same" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4223836C.4080200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-02-28T12:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": "<17E2EAE8.3651DEB2.0299E010@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "StoneOx17 at aol.com wrote:\n\nI'm really confused here, as well. I do remember that somewhere Wolfe implies\nthat the Valfather is a stand-in for everybody's father. If that's true, maybe \nthe Lady of Skai is in some sense everybody's mother, in which case having \nMag remind Able of her would be fair.\n\nI'm also confused about whether Mythgarthr really exists, or is just an \ninternal construction of Able's (while he's really being whisked off in an\nambulance). If everything is internal, then the identification of the\nLady with his mother makes more sense. Do any defenders/opponents of \nthis interpretation want to weigh in? In fact, is Mythgarthr necessarily\neither internal or external, or could it somehow be both at once?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll take the 'Unbeliever' route out: Mythgarthr is both. As for the \nValfather\nand co. (Are they Overcyns? The Knight implies so, but I don't know \nwhat The Wizard\nsez.) since they are the gods of that plane, we should expect them to be \nmythic\nor archetypal, since those interpretations would have more adherents; \nparents\nare of course achetypal, and the Lady's association with the Moon even \nmore so.\n\n~Maru\nI could, of course, be wrong; but since when has that stopped any of us?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b501c51dda$5a3bc630$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-02-28T13:13:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": "<17E2EAE8.3651DEB2.0299E010@aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm also confused about whether Mythgarthr really exists, or is just an\ninternal construction of Able's (while he's really being whisked off in an\nambulance). If everything is internal, then the identification of the\nLady with his mother makes more sense. Do any defenders/opponents of\nthis interpretation want to weigh in? In fact, is Mythgarthr necessarily\neither internal or external, or could it somehow be both at once?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Setr, Garsecg, Abel, Valfather, and Michael, are all in a sense\nArthur himself.\n\nI suppose it could be both at once but I think it is absolutely significant\nthat Valfather bows to Michael and in Germany the shrines to Odin were\nreplaced with chapels to St. Michael.\n\nIn another sense, Arnthor, Weiland, Ravd, Toug and all the other heroes are\nArthur as well. And Idnn and the Lady and the Witch and Parka and Mag are\nall Able's mother. Berthold and Thor are both Ben (Thor had a stone lodged\nin his head from an ax wound that never got properly removed and so did\nBerthold).\n\nA knight does not conquer Ogres. He primarily tests, learns from, and\nconquers himself.\n\nDoes Wolfe expect anyone to probe that far? I suppose so since he had Able\nsee the ambulance.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-02-28T15:46:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: ontology", "in_reply_to": "<00b501c51dda$5a3bc630$4c1e4b0a@vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI think Setr, Garsecg, Abel, Valfather, and Michael, are all in a sense\nArthur himself.\n\nI suppose it could be both at once but I think it is absolutely significant\nthat Valfather bows to Michael and in Germany the shrines to Odin were\nreplaced with chapels to St. Michael.\n\nIn another sense, Arnthor, Weiland, Ravd, Toug and all the other heroes are\nArthur as well. And Idnn and the Lady and the Witch and Parka and Mag are\nall Able's mother. Berthold and Thor are both Ben (Thor had a stone lodged\nin his head from an ax wound that never got properly removed and so did\nBerthold)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, you would see it as _Peace_, but with a happy ending ;)\n\n\nA few bits and pieces which I have had trouble sending at the time:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "someone wrote:\n... Maybe the spelling of Setr is just meant as\nacknowledgment of this. If it's more than that and a hint towards \"Set\" I\nhave no suggestions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely Set is correct: Osiris-Isis-Set\n Arnthor-Morcaine-Setr\n Able-Disiri-Berthold\n\nA. and D. were brought up together as if brother and sister.\n\nBerthold was also ruler of the waste land and is appropriately wounded.\nLeader of the group of giants that ransacked Griffinsford - Schildstarr.\n\nBeginning of Knight: \"If I slept here tonight,\" I suggested, \"I could wake you if you had a bad\ndream.\" \"Schildstarr,\" the bearded man muttered.\n\nEnd of Wizard: \"There we saw [...] Bold Berthold slay Schildstarr\"\n\n\"I knew then that the name of our town had not been Griffinsford. Perhaps\nit is Griffin -- or Griffinsburg or something like that.\"\n\nGifford IL ? The gazetteers give a few Griffins in various states.\n\nAnd has someone previously pointed out?\n\nMACLURA\n\nDESCRIPTION: Maclura is the botanical name for a medium sized, spiny tree called the Osage Orange.\nThis tree can grow up to 60 feet in height and was originally found growing from Arkansas to Texas.\nThis tree is mainly grown for interest as it isn't a particularly beautiful tree. It grows well in\nother parts of the country besides its native range. It is valued as a hedge plant and as a tree for\nwindbreaks and poor soil. The leaves are simple and alternately arranged on the twigs. They are\novate with pointed tips and smooth edges. They grow from 3 to 5 inches long and 2 or 3 inches wide.\nThey are shiny dark green on top and paler and smooth beneath. Male and female flowers grow on\nseparate trees, but neither have any decorative value. The interesting fruits resemble oranges, thus\nthe common name, Osage Orange. They are fairly large with wrinkled skin and are colored green at\nfirst, turning an orange hue later. The \"oranges\" consist of a number of closely packed drupes,\nwhich when punctured, secrete a bitter, milky juice that turns black upon exposure. The wood of this\ntree is hardy, strong and durable and has a bright orange color. The Indians used it for making bows\nand it has been considered to be one of the best bow woods. Because of this, it has been given other\ncommon names such as \"Bow-wood\" and \"Bois d'arc\". It is also used for fence posts, insulator pins,\npulley docks and a number of other things. The wood also produces a bright yellow dye.\n\nHowever, the relationship of Americans-Native Americans and Humans-Aelf\ndoesn't really hold up." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-07T22:37:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c51b14$2a4ccfa0$fa3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, all. I just finished Wizard and am reading through some of the discussion.\n\nOn 2/25/05, Roy C. Lackey asked about this passage:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----------------------------------------------\n \"'Oh, son . . .'\n \"It was a peasant woman. I had seen many fairer, though she was fair.\n \"'You are my son.'\n \"I knew that she was wrong, and it came to me that if I were to lie upon\nthe ground, and she to bend over me, I would see her in the way I had just\nrecalled her. Then I understood that she was the fairest of women.\" (W, 263)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's what I think is going on here:\n\nMag calls Art her son. Art's initial response is to believe she is\nwrong, mistaking him in the same way Berthold mistakes Art for Able.\n\nBut as he looks at her, Art has a memory from when he was a child\nlooking up at his own mother and realizes that Mag's face is the same\none he remembers, except now he's grown and sees her face-to-face. \nMag *is* his mother, his lost love, and for that reason the fairest of\nwomen (to him).\n\nAs to how Art's mother comes to be in Mythgarthr, on the Isle of\nGlass, I have no idea.\n\n-- Rostrum" } ] } ] }