{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4374", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4374, "subject": "Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-03-14T04:31:41+00:00", "last": "2005-03-19T20:57:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Kertesz", "address": "zsetrek_a at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T04:31:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello everyone,\n\nI’m a student from Australia, and I’ve just discovered this mailing list \nafter a holiday well spent on a Gene Wolfe binge: I devoured the BotNS in a \nfew days after Christmas, and was – to put it mildly – awed. I promptly \nordered UotNS, Long Sun, and Short Sun.\n\nAt the moment, I’m nearly through a “refresher” re-reading of the BotNS, in \nanticipation of starting UotNS (the rest of the books waiting in a pile on \nmy floor), and I’ve come to you with a few questions that have been nagging \nme. In exchange, however, I thought I’d offer a theory that I’ve developed \nduring my second reading.\n\nFirst, my theory – one that revolves around the issue of Agilus’ mask. It’s \nnothing groundbreaking, and forgive me if this one has already been floated, \nbut I’m comparatively new to this ;)\n\nWe know that the Cacogens are not a single, unified, race – for example, the \nHeirodules Ossipago, Barbatus and Famulimus are described, in Sword of the \nLictor, as quite different from one annother:\n\n“One, if he had been truly a human being, would have been short and stout. \nThe other two were a good head taller than I, as tall as exultants… The \nmasks all three wore gave them the faces of refined men of middle age, \nthoughtful and poised; but I was aware that the eyes that looked out through \nthe slits in the masks of the two taller figures were larger than human \neyes, and that the shorter figure had no eyes at all, so that only darkness \nwas visible there.”\n\nThere are other references in the series which refer to the Cacogens as \n“races from beyond the stars” – none of which I can find on a quick flip \nthrough.\n\nIf we accept that the Cacogens are not identical, or even unified, then why \nnot assume that Agilus is a member of another “race” of Cacogen? It is \npossible that he differs from the three Heirodules (in that his disguise is \nmore efficient, his motives more opaque, and his nature less trustworthy), \nyet is in other ways, similar to them. Like Ossipago et. al, he wears a \nseries of masks (as the \"black ribbon\" indicates). However, he appears to \nwear his masks in a different fashion…\n\nThe Heirodules wear, firstly, a “human” mask, which conceals a monstrous \nmask, which, in turn, conceals their true (super) humanity. On the other \nhand, when Severian fist meets Agilus, the shopkeeper wears a death’s mask, \nwhich conceals a face identical to Agia’s.\n\nA pattern could be imposed on this:\n\nThe Heirodules wear:\n1)Human mask\n2)Inhuman mask\n3)Human face\n\nAgilus wears:\n1)Inhuman mask\n2)Human mask\n3)?\n\nI think that Agilus’ “Agia” face conceals his true, inhuman face – and, in \nthis way, he is an inverse of the Heirodules - an anti-Heirodule, if you \nwill. In keeping with this, his role in the narrative seems to be a negative \none, or at least antagonistic.\n\nI don’t know how one could expand on this theory though… Is Agilus openly \nagainst the New Sun (it seems like his sister is – but is she a Cacogen \ntoo?) or is he merely a bystander who becomes caught up in the story? I’m \nnot sure, but I think the general conceit of the theory is neat, at least.\n\nOk, so on to my questions:\n\n1)\tIs the boatman who sails the Gyoll (he helped rescue Severian from \ndrowning in Shadow of the Torturer and, later, ferried Severian to Dorcas’s \nhouse in Citadel of the Autarch) Jonas? His speech patterns suggest so, as \ndo some of his comments – but if so, who is his “niece”, who rides with him \nin Citadel?\n\n2)\tWho/what is Erebus? I was never very clear on this.\n\n3)\tIs Abia an alien, or was it once an “enhanced” human, like its \nhandmaidens and Baldanders?\n\nIf any of these are answered in UotNS, Long, or Short, a simple \"wait and \nsee\" is all that is required.\n\nWell, that’s enough for now – I hope my theory is somewhat constructive, and \nthat you guys can help me with these niggling questions.\n\nFinally, and most importantly - pleased to meet you!\n\nSincerely,\nAndrew Kertesz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370503141020108bc3b7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T10:20:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome to some very good reading.\n\nRegarding the Cacos - one of them is of the same nature as Jonas.\n\nInteresting point about Agilus' mask. Masks in general are a huge\ntheme in tBotNS (the torturer's uniform includes one...)\n\nRegarding your questions. \"Wait and see\" is semi-approipriate. I will\nsee if I can give you spoiler-free answers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Is the boatman who sails the Gyoll (he helped rescue Severian from\ndrowning in Shadow of the Torturer and, later, ferried Severian to Dorcas's\nhouse in Citadel of the Autarch) Jonas? His speech patterns suggest so, as\ndo some of his comments — but if so, who is his \"niece\", who rides with him\nin Citadel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The speech patterns seem to be generic to sailors in the Urth part of \nthis universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Who/what is Erebus? I was never very clear on this.\n3) Is Abia an alien, or was it once an \"enhanced\" human, like its\nhandmaidens and Baldanders?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a good example of the kind of thing you have to glerk from\ncontext in Wolfe - he gives you the pieces, but you have to assemble\nthe puzzle yourself.\n\nErebus and Abaia are both huge alien(?) beings -- the sort of thing that\nBaldanders may become in time - who play chess with humans as\npieces. Erebus lives at the South Pole, near the mountain of the same \nname; Abaia lives under the sea. There is a third, if you can catch the\nname.\n\nWelcome aboard.\n\n--Dan'l (Blattid)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "You probably do not want to know what that odor is." } ] }, { "message_id": "<42360451.7010702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T14:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370503141020108bc3b7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThis is a good example of the kind of thing you have to glerk from\n\ncontext in Wolfe - he gives you the pieces, but you have to assemble\nthe puzzle yourself.\n\nErebus and Abaia are both huge alien(?) beings -- the sort of thing that\nBaldanders may become in time - who play chess with humans as\npieces. Erebus lives at the South Pole, near the mountain of the same \nname; Abaia lives under the sea. There is a third, if you can catch the\nname.\n\nWelcome aboard.\n\n--Dan'l (Blattid)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you think Erebus/Abaia are aliens (cacogens)?\nIs it just because Baldanders seems to be like them, and non-human\n(which would explain why the cacogens take such trouble to teach him.)?\n\nThat said,: There was a third!?!\n\n~Maru\nLooks like I'll be re-reading it; makes me glad I dropped the money and \nactually bought'em,\nas is not my wont." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T15:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "<42360451.7010702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Abaia, Erebus & co. were described as aliens, if you believe the origin \nstory of where they came from. I am not 100% sure it is accurate to call \nthem \"cacogens\", because \"cacogens\" seems to have a more specific \nconnotation than simply any and all types of alien.\n\nAlien or not, at Baldander's castle mention is also made of the life cycle \nof his people/species/type (which is where the connection is made to \nAbaia/Erebus/etc), which does distinguish them as non-human at the very \nleast.\n\nI remember that there was a third, but I cannot remember its name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a good example of the kind of thing you have to glerk from\n\ncontext in Wolfe - he gives you the pieces, but you have to assemble\nthe puzzle yourself.\n\nErebus and Abaia are both huge alien(?) beings -- the sort of thing that\nBaldanders may become in time - who play chess with humans as\npieces. Erebus lives at the South Pole, near the mountain of the same \nname; Abaia lives under the sea. There is a third, if you can catch the\nname.\n\nWelcome aboard.\n\n--Dan'l (Blattid)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes you think Erebus/Abaia are aliens (cacogens)?\nIs it just because Baldanders seems to be like them, and non-human\n(which would explain why the cacogens take such trouble to teach him.)?\n\nThat said,: There was a third!?!\n\n~Maru\nLooks like I'll be re-reading it; makes me glad I dropped the money and \nactually bought'em,\nas is not my wont.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Samuel L.", "address": "exeunt at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T15:45:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scylla?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:21:36 +0000, Chris wrote:\nAbaia, Erebus & co. were described as aliens, if you believe the origin\nstory of where they came from. I am not 100% sure it is accurate to call\nthem \"cacogens\", because \"cacogens\" seems to have a more specific\nconnotation than simply any and all types of alien.\n\nAlien or not, at Baldander's castle mention is also made of the life cycle\nof his people/species/type (which is where the connection is made to\nAbaia/Erebus/etc), which does distinguish them as non-human at the very\nleast.\n\nI remember that there was a third, but I cannot remember its name." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-14T16:35:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370503141020108bc3b7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Erebus and Abaia are both huge alien(?) beings -- the sort of thing that\nBaldanders may become in time - who play chess with humans as\npieces. Erebus lives at the South Pole, near the mountain of the same\nname; Abaia lives under the sea. There is a third, if you can catch the\nname." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is actually a fourth: Arioch (IV, chap 1). And Blaithmaic's book in \nthe library of the Citadel, _Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians_, suggests \nthere may be as many as 13 more--all (or mostly?) unnamed.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c528f9$6d2d72f0$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-03-14T16:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alien or not, at Baldander's castle mention is also made of the life cycle\nof his people/species/type (which is where the connection is made to \nAbaia/Erebus/etc), which does distinguish them as non-human at the very \nleast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"non-human\" *now* perhaps. I understood that Baldanders' growth was \ntechnologically induced in a bid for eternal life.\n\nWelcome, Andrew. Perhaps you will be the one to finally straighten all this \nout.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<423D02C0.5020509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-03-19T20:57:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Newbie - a theory and some questions.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Kertesz wrote:\nFirst, my theory — one that revolves around the issue of Agilus? mask. \nIt’s nothing groundbreaking, and forgive me if this one has already \nbeen floated, but I’m comparatively new to this ;)\n\nWe know that the Cacogens are not a single, unified, race — for \nexample, the Heirodules Ossipago, Barbatus and Famulimus are \ndescribed, in Sword of the Lictor, as quite different from one annother:\n\n“One, if he had been truly a human being, would have been short and \nstout. The other two were a good head taller than I, as tall as \nexultants” The masks all three wore gave them the faces of refined men \nof middle age, thoughtful and poised; but I was aware that the eyes \nthat looked out through the slits in the masks of the two taller \nfigures were larger than human eyes, and that the shorter figure had \nno eyes at all, so that only darkness was visible there.\n\nThere are other references in the series which refer to the Cacogens \nas “races from beyond the stars” — none of which I can find on a quick \nflip through.\n\nIf we accept that the Cacogens are not identical, or even unified, \nthen why not assume that Agilus is a member of another “race” of \nCacogen? It is possible that he differs from the three Heirodules (in \nthat his disguise is more efficient, his motives more opaque, and his \nnature less trustworthy), yet is in other ways, similar to them. Like \nOssipago et. al, he wears a series of masks (as the \"black ribbon\" \nindicates). However, he appears to wear his masks in a different fashion?\n\nThe Heirodules wear, firstly, a “human” mask, which conceals a \nmonstrous mask, which, in turn, conceals their true (super) humanity. \nOn the other hand, when Severian fist meets Agilus, the shopkeeper \nwears a death’s mask, which conceals a face identical to Agia’s.\n\nA pattern could be imposed on this:\n\nThe Heirodules wear:\n1)Human mask\n2)Inhuman mask\n3)Human face\n\nAgilus wears:\n1)Inhuman mask\n2)Human mask\n3)?\n\nI think that Agilus? ?Agia? face conceals his true, inhuman face ? \nand, in this way, he is an inverse of the Heirodules - an \nanti-Heirodule, if you will. In keeping with this, his role in the \nnarrative seems to be a negative one, or at least antagonistic.\n\nI don’t know how one could expand on this theory though? Is Agilus \nopenly against the New Sun (it seems like his sister is — but is she a \nCacogen too?) or is he merely a bystander who becomes caught up in the \nstory? I’m not sure, but I think the general conceit of the theory is \nneat, at least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds like Raynor would like to chat wi' you : )\n\nBut seriously, if Agilus was a cacogen, and one that was opposed to the \nNew Sun, wouldn't he be\nassociated with Typhon and the magicians with claws\n(Side note: I actually own a pair of those weapons.\nWolfe doesn't mention that their primary use these days is for climbing \nvertically (usually paired with\na set for the feet as well.) not self-defense, though I understand the \nninja made heavy use of shuko.\nThis suggests an interesting thought to me: the cosmogony is up=good, \nand the magicians seek\nto gain power by putting the New Sun, thereby rising. Or climbing. Hmm....\nBut if you want to use them, you really gotta add padding. End digression.)\n, since if he is indeed a anti-cacogen (insofar only as his goals are \ndifferent. I don't think he would be a\ncreature even lower than Urthians. Doesn't seem fitting somehow) his \ngoals would coincide with\nthe two previously mentioned groups.\n\nFurther, one would expect his execution by Severian to be fraught with \nsignificance, or at least far deeper\nthan meets the eye. Now, I'm not particularly sharp in that arena (I am \ntold I missed essentially everything\nin the BotLS) so take my words with some salt, but I saw no more than \nthe usual human drama in it.\n\nFinally, if your ideas hold up, Agilus would almost have to be a \nloathsome creature below humanity and far\nbelow the cacogens we see directly, since the cacogens original mask \nthough a lie, ironically turns out to\nbe the truth; by analogy, the 'inhuman' mask of Agilus would 'ironically \nturns out to be the truth', making hime\ninhuman.\n\n~Maru" } ] } ] }