{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4387", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4387, "subject": "TWK: Mag & Stuff I Don't Understand About Dragons", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2005-03-27T01:04:02+00:00", "last": "2005-03-27T08:19:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<200503270903.j2R93wAF070279@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-03-27T01:04:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag & Stuff I Don't Understand About Dragons", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA1\n\nAndrew here, digging himself out of a spam deluge as Thalassocrat\n...\n\nI see from the archives that Roy a while back had some comments\nabout Mag and the question of whether or not she is the physical\nmother of Art and Ben.\n\nRoy thinks that she is; I still don't, mainly because of what Mag-\nin-Lynnet says towards the end of Wizard.\n\nOn pp458-9, she says: \"Good evening, Sir Able. I had a son of that\nname once. You aren't my son, I know, but I'd like to think of you\nas a son.\" Then: \"You've always been my boy, because I love the\nboy you were before I met you.\" And finally: \"My son Able came to\n[the Isle of Glas], Sir Able, not you.\"\n\nAfter the final battle, before Art heals her, she says this (p474):\n\n\"You are not my son, and yet you are.\"\n\nI think there is also some telling negative evidence. If Mag really\n\nwere his mother, would Art not seek to destroy Setr as soon as he\nfound out that she had been enslaved as sailor-bait?\n\nBut of course there is definitely some kind of connection between\nMag and Art's mother, and Mag's girlhood was spent in America.\nOriginally I concocted a baroque story where Art's mom visited\nDream and Aelfrice, leaving behind a copy of herself which became\nMag. But I guess it's simpler to suppose that she was like Art,\nwith an American version and a Mythgathr version, and that somehow\nthey swapped, like Art and Able, when they were young.\n\nSo Art had a mother from Mythgathr, and Able a mother from America.\n\nArt says of himself that he always preferred being outdoors when he\n\nwas a kid. I wonder if Able was troubled by strange visions of\nshopping malls?\n\nI think there's a slight possibility the Mag/Ma swap happened after\n\nthe birth of Berthold/Ben. Evidence, if you can call it that: Mag\nis willing to be tricked into going with Setr-as-Garsec to check\nout a place of refuge, even though she knows it is probably \"too\nsmall\" for Berthold. Ben and Berthold seem to be firmly rooted in\ntheir contexts, on track to settle down with girls and stuff, but I\n\nget the impression that Art/Able are \"different\".\n\nRoy also noted the time issue: Art thinks he spent something less\nthan 10 years in Aelfrice before emerging though Parka's cave,\nwhereas 30-40 years seem to have passed in Mythgathr, judging from\nBerthold's age. Presumably this is explained by the time\ndifferential between the two places.\n\nBut it does raise an interesting point: it seems that Art/Able's\nbirth must have occured 40-50 years before the story starts, in\nMythgarthr terms - so around the same time as Arnthor's?\n\nThat leads in a tenuous kind of way to Stuff I Don't Understand\nAbout Dragons, viz:\n\n1. Why does Grengarm reappear in Mythgathr after escaping from Art\nin the cave? The dragon as pitiable dwarf (presumably because he's\nnot strong in Mythgarthr) jumps into the pool which leads to\nAelfrice. Shortly afterwards, he reappears riding a storm-front.\nArt says later that Grengarm was seeking to escape to Aelfrice\nduring Art's pursuit. But why did the dragon come back at all? A\ntentative story: Grengarm could not reach Muspel from Aelfrice,\nbecause Kulili blocked the portal associated with the pool in the\ncave, confronting him as monstrous white dragon. So he had to\nreturn to Mythgarthr to try to find another way.\n\n2. Why doesn't Setr keep women on Glas as sailor-bait any more?\n\n3. Why do Art and Setr have to battle their way up the stairs of\nthe Tower of Glas? Why doesn't Setr simply reveal himself to the\nKhimarae and tell them to scram?\n\n4. Art asks Uri towards the end of Knight how Setr expects him to\nkill Kulili, when Setr + a host of Aelf couldn't do it? (How would\nyou go about killing Kulili anyway?) He says he knows the answer to\n\nhis question, but I don't. Setr is terrified of Art after his\nhealing; so why did he heal him? Even if Art did kill her, wouldn't\n\nit be a net loss for Setr - replacing one threat by a stronger one?\n\nWhy didn't he just eat Art when he was weak?\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nNote: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify\nVersion: Hush 2.4\n\nwkYEARECAAYFAkJGdvAACgkQBctFqdKBBTvZjgCgiKeFL59Cd0w+cgxjLd2Ly1w0aw4A\noJPcDPNcDnySsTu+KUEWzh8X6G3m\n=ylEu\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008a01c532e2$4d8f1eb0$1087d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc at frontiernet.net" }, "date": "2005-03-27T07:33:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag & Stuff I Don't Understand About Dragons", "in_reply_to": "<200503270903.j2R93wAF070279@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Andrew that Mag is not Art's mother, for the same reasons he \ngives." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That leads in a tenuous kind of way to Stuff I Don't Understand\n\n2. Why doesn't Setr keep women on Glas as sailor-bait any more?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess on this one is Setr stopped the practice because he trapped Mag up \nthere, which in the future will lead to a scenario where he has Art discover \nher remains up there. I think it possible Setr was thinking that far ahead \nto try to manipulate Art, but Art gets much bigger than Setr anticipates and \nwinds up much harder to control." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Why do Art and Setr have to battle their way up the stairs of\nthe Tower of Glas? Why doesn't Setr simply reveal himself to the\nKhimarae and tell them to scram?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This answer I'm almost sure of -- because he doesn't want Art to know who he \nis. In the form of Garsceg he's got a pretty good chance of manipulating \nArt into helping him take over Aelfrice. With his cover blown, it becomes \nmuch harder, as we see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Art asks Uri towards the end of Knight how Setr expects him to\nkill Kulili, when Setr + a host of Aelf couldn't do it? (How would\nyou go about killing Kulili anyway?) He says he knows the answer to\nhis question, but I don't. Setr is terrified of Art after his\nhealing; so why did he heal him? Even if Art did kill her, wouldn't\nit be a net loss for Setr - replacing one threat by a stronger one?\nWhy didn't he just eat Art when he was weak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only in retrospect does it become obvious that Art would become a threat to \nSetr. Keep in mind Setr seems to be locked into a stand-off with Kulili for \na long time, and bringing in Art is his attempt to tip the balance with a \nwild card. Of course he wants Art to be as strong as possible, and it helps \nthat Art is coming from Mythgathr also. I don't know for sure how Art \nthinks he can kill Kulili, but my guess is it would involve him using his \npower as an Overcyn and becoming as big as Kulili before he fights her. As \nwe know, he doesn't defeat her, and we know he doesn't break his promise to \nthe Valfather at that time, so I think that supports the case also, since he \ndidn't want to win.\n\nAlan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200503271619.j2RGJ9st092432@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-03-27T08:19:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Mag & Stuff I Don't Understand About Dragons", "in_reply_to": "<008a01c532e2$4d8f1eb0$1087d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA1\n\nAlan answers my questions:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. Why do Art and Setr have to battle their way up the stairs of\nthe Tower of Glas? Why doesn't Setr simply reveal himself to the\nKhimarae and tell them to scram?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This answer I'm almost sure of -- because he doesn't want Art to\nknow who he\nis. In the form of Garsceg he's got a pretty good chance of\nmanipulating\nArt into helping him take over Aelfrice. With his cover blown, it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "becomes\nmuch harder, as we see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree this is pretty likely, but I still feel there might be\nsomething else going on. Why not eg just tell Art to wait\nsomewhere, go to the tower & tell the K. to scram, and then come\nback and get him? As it is, Setr goes a long way to blowing his\ncover by changing into a kind of mini-dragon thing on the stairs.\nApart from anything else, it's really dangerous - Art almost get\nkilled - and I would have expected Setr to take a little bit more\ncare of things.\n\nBut maybe Setr's idea was to put Art in a position where Setr would\nsave his life, and so stregthen his hold over him. Art saving\nhimself would fit with the idea that Setr didn't realize just how\nstrong Art would become." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "4. Art asks Uri towards the end of Knight how Setr expects him\nto\nkill Kulili, when Setr + a host of Aelf couldn't do it? (How\nwould\nyou go about killing Kulili anyway?) He says he knows the answer" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to\nhis question, but I don't. Setr is terrified of Art after his\nhealing; so why did he heal him? Even if Art did kill her,\nwouldn't\nit be a net loss for Setr - replacing one threat by a stronger\none?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why didn't he just eat Art when he was weak?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only in retrospect does it become obvious that Art would become a\nthreat to\nSetr. Keep in mind Setr seems to be locked into a stand-off with\nKulili for\na long time, and bringing in Art is his attempt to tip the balance" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with a\nwild card. Of course he wants Art to be as strong as possible,\nand it helps\nthat Art is coming from Mythgathr also. I don't know for sure how" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Art\nthinks he can kill Kulili, but my guess is it would involve him\nusing his\npower as an Overcyn and becoming as big as Kulili before he fights" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "her. As\nwe know, he doesn't defeat her, and we know he doesn't break his\npromise to\nthe Valfather at that time, so I think that supports the case\nalso, since he\ndidn't want to win." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Art's conversation with Uri happens before he goes to Skai - he\ndoesn't know he's going to be an Overcyn at that point. I'm still\nstuck on how you kill something that can decompose into a huge\nswarm of worms and scatter; as Art says in the name-list at the\nbeginning of Wizard, this makes her \"pretty hard to catch\".\n\nI have a hare-brained idea that maybe Setr intended Art to fail.\nHaving sworn to kill her, and failed, Art would be in Setr's debt.\nSetr could then use him to help take over Mythgarthr. Recall the\noffers he makes later - to be emperor of Mythgarthr etc. Art\nhimself wonders if he might be able to get out of his promise by\ndoing a few other favors for Setr, after his first meeting with\nKulili. Perhaps Setr never thought that the Aelf could defeat her,\neither. Maybe his intention all along was for them to be decimated\nand demoralized, and thus more easily ruled.\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nNote: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify\nVersion: Hush 2.4\n\nwkYEARECAAYFAkJG3MoACgkQBctFqdKBBTvq7gCgrO69VHt/Wjto4eB7MWiKfdutat8A\nn3GPa4XbldD/fsVOEZAV1smNAKbf\n=Kc/g\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----" } ] } ] }