{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4390", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4390, "subject": "the Epitome", "messages": 19, "voices": 12, "first": "2005-04-02T01:00:27+00:00", "last": "2005-04-12T16:51:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001e01c53762$6875cb00$a53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-04-02T01:00:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam quoted Andrew and wrote:\nRoy says inter alia:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As I've said earlier, the destruction of Urth was largely a\nsymbolic\npunishment; symbolic because Urth was man's ancestral birthplace,\nand\nmankind was dispersed too far and wide in the galaxy (galaxies?)\nfor the\nHierogrammates to overcome entropy (135) and hit mankind all at\nonce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I feel that \"symbolic\" and \"punishment\" must both be wrong,\nsomehow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. As I read it, the punishment was placing the black hole in the Sun,\nand the New Sun is the lifting of that punishment. Tzadkiel's words to\nSeverian at the \"trial,\" and Apheta's words afterwards, make no sense if\nthe\ncoming of the New Sun is supposed to be a punishment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We three seem to be in agreement that mankind was being punished. The\ndifference is in the interpretation of the punishment. You see the\npunishment as being the wounding of the sun, and I agree. But the \"lifting\nof that punishment\" by bringing the New Sun is precisely what brought about\n\"the destruction of Urth\" that I mentioned. Had there been no black hole\nplaced in the sun, there would have been no need of a white fountain to fix\nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It must be that Ushas is a necessary part of the Plan. And it must,\n\nsomehow, be necessary for the victim to consent in the sacrfice, by\n\nthe assent of Sev as Epitome.\n\nI don't claim to know from the text why this should be the case,\nbut if it isn't, I don't think the narrative makes any sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Ushas is part of the \"Plan\" by the Hierogrammates to \"shape us\nnow as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their\nrevenge.\" (CITADEL, 242) The H's had the power, as I showed in an earlier\nquote, to make new worlds and new suns. But they didn't do that. They went\nthrough the rigmarole of sending in a white fountain and washing away Urth\nas it was, to make a new beginning, such as happened in Noah's time.The act\nwas largely symbolic because only Urth would be destroyed, not the tens of\nthousands of other worlds on which man resided. The Green Man was an\nevolutionary stage of the Plan that would culminate in the H's themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Personally, I find the idea of one person exemplifying the whole,\nand the idea of a Greater End requiring the death of multitudes, to\n\nbe quite repellant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once more, I agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian as Epitome is farcical. Most people on Urth would never even have\nheard of him. He was groomed, from before birth, to mindlessly obey whomever\nor whatever he was taught to regard as a higher authority than himself. When\nall the moral and ethical squirming stops, that comes down to 'might makes\nright'.\n\nIn the space of about six months, Sev went from a journeyman torturer raised\nin an artificially insulated corner of the Citadel, where he was woefully\nignorant of just about everything on Urth, to Autarch of the Commonwealth.\nThe ten years he held that position before leaving for Yesod were spent on\nbusywork; nothing he did then mattered at all.\n\nAs for the \"victim\" consenting to the \"sacrifice\", well, yes. That brings me\nback to that quote about the \"death agonies of the world you know will be\noffered to the Increate.\" I've said enough about that. And as I said on this\nlist years ago, it was an easy sacrifice for Sev, as Epitome, to make,\nbecause he didn't make it. It cost him _nothing_. He got his face and his\nleg fixed. His nascent godling powers were augmented. Oh, he may have felt\nbad for an hour or two, about the mess he made on Urth and all the dead, but\nhe got over it. It must have been awful for him, sitting on the beach on\nUshas, writing his memoirs and watching the native girls adore him as a god\nand wait on him hand and foot. Life is tough for a scapegoat.\n\nJust as there was no real \"trial\", the fight with the sailors afterwards was\na charade, and for the same reason. Tzadkiel had already looked into the\nfuture and seen that Sev would bring the New Sun. He could not die in that\nfight if he was to bring the New Sun. Besides, Sev and Apheta had already\nconceived the New Sun _before_ the mock trial or phony fight. It was already\non its way to Urth.\n\nThe H's had no need or desire for a sacrificial victim; they are not the\nIncreate. Their continued existence was not in jeopardy, no matter what\nhappened on Urth, because they lived in Yesod. That stuff I quoted in an\nearlier post about \"they shape us now as\nthey themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their\nrevenge\", is moot because _they already exist_. Unless they were just\ngetting their kicks by exacting \"revenge\" for wrongs done them in a dead\nuniverse an unimaginable time ago, then they had no reason to be concerned\nwith Urth.\n\nI know that Apheta says that the H's wanted Sev to succeed because that\nstrain of mankind born of Ushas might produce the Hieros, which would in\nturn shape the H's in Briah. But that doesn't change the fact that the H's\nalready exist and live in Yesod. There is no practical point in endlessly\nrepeating what has already been done in universe after universe. That's\nwhere the Increate comes in. They were doing his bidding. The goal was to\nimprove and transform mankind \"by some minute step\" in each cycle into\nsomething nearer and dearer to the Increate, just as they themselves had\nbeen transformed by mankind into a race that was \"united, compassionate,\njust.\" (CITADEL, 242)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42532B06.6060205@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "Matt Tillman", "address": "tillmas at verizon.net" }, "date": "2005-04-05T17:18:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c53762$6875cb00$a53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c53a70$f21a86a0$e03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-04-05T23:22:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<42532B06.6060205@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt Tillman wrote:\nSorry, cut out most of this because I just wanted to respond to one\nparagraph\n\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nI know that Apheta says that the H's wanted Sev to succeed because that\nstrain of mankind born of Ushas might produce the Hieros, which would in\nturn shape the H's in Briah. But that doesn't change the fact that the H's\nalready exist and live in Yesod. There is no practical point in endlessly\nrepeating what has already been done in universe after universe. That's\nwhere the Increate comes in. They were doing his bidding. The goal was to\nimprove and transform mankind \"by some minute step\" in each cycle into\nsomething nearer and dearer to the Increate, just as they themselves had\nbeen transformed by mankind into a race that was \"united, compassionate,\njust.\" (CITADEL, 242)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it implausible that the H's are working along a non-linear timeline\nto prevent anything from forestalling their own development. Certainly, it\ncould be said that if we could work outside of time and guide our lives from\nchildhood, we might do things differently with all of that 20/20 hindsight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now imagine that we have more than 20/20 hindsight, because we operate on a\ndifferent plane of existance than the creatures that we are gradually\nmanipulating.<<\n------------------------------------------------\n\nI don't know if my use of \"H's\" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is causing\nconfusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the\nhumans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the\nHierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in the\neyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate.\n\nAs I've already said, the H's already exist, in Yesod, independent of any\nfurther Briah-like iterations of universes. Their development is not an\nissue. If they found their creation to have been such a painful ordeal that\nmankind had to be punished for it, why would they want to repeat it\nendlessly if they didn't have to? And they didn't have to.\n\nLet me condense it this way: either the H's did what they did (mess with the\nSun, drown Urth, manipulate mankind, etc.) with the consent of the Increate,\nor they didn't. That they did have that consent is what I have argued. To\nargue that they only _thought_ they had that consent doesn't change\nanything; either they did or they didn't. The absence of divine sanction\nreduces the Pancreator to a spectator to events profoundly affecting his own\nCreation. From the Garden to Noah to the Christ, the Bible presents a\ndecidedly contrary portrait of Divine Right.\n\nIf the H's had their own agenda -- regardless of what that agenda may have\nbeen -- and were operating without the blessing of the Increate, then they\nlack the _moral authority_ to pass judgement on mankind. It's that simple.\nWithout moral authority, the H's are just cosmic cowboys, hypocrites guilty\nof precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned . They can be\nneither \"compassionate\" nor \"just\", as Wolfe says of them.\n\nFinally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that\nway? Why write it at all?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23f894a005040600017ab40032@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Kertesz", "address": "andrew.kertesz at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-06T00:01:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<001001c53a70$f21a86a0$e03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the H's had their own agenda -- regardless of what that agenda may have\nbeen -- and were operating without the blessing of the Increate, then they\nlack the _moral authority_ to pass judgement on mankind. It's that simple.\nWithout moral authority, the H's are just cosmic cowboys, hypocrites guilty\nof precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned . They can be\nneither \"compassionate\" nor \"just\", as Wolfe says of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Melito's story, the angel admits that it can only guesses the will\nof the Increate - both the cock and the angel are inifitely far from\nHim.\n\nWith that in mind, isn't it possible to be wise and just, and also to\nwork against the will of the Increate?\n\nAfter all, we know that the Heirogrammates and Humans exchange places\n- in modifying the humans, the H's condemn themselves. Why shouldn't\nthe destruction of Urth be part of the cycle?\n\nAnyways, I think that the BotNS has more relevance as a story of\npersonal redemption + discovery, not one of biblical floods and\nsourges." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-06T00:06:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<001001c53a70$f21a86a0$e03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hold up a second. This interpretation of the Hierodules/Hierogrammates is \nsomething that I find to be surprising, which is not to say it's incorrect \nnecessarily, but this was not how I was seeing things. This may be a \nstraightforward error on my part; I really ought to buy an electronic copy \nof the books if one is available just to look up things like this.\n\nI thought that what you are calling the creation of the Hierogrammates was a \n\"shaping\", that is, the men of the previous universe influenced their \ndevelopment rather than created them from whole cloth. And in turn the \nHierogrammates were influencing the humans of Severian's universe to return \nthe favor. Rather than being a great sin I thought this was something that \nwas supposed to elevate each in turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if my use of \"H's\" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is causing\nconfusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the\nhumans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the\nHierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in the\neyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that\nway? Why write it at all?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do authors intend every event they write about to be interpreted as a good \nthing? Well, that's not quite what I mean. How about: does Wolfe present it \nto us as a good thing, or is it *Severian* who presents it to us as a good \nthing? Again I think this is a shortcut to avoid rationally examining our \nreasons for thinking of the birth of Ushas to be a good thing. \nUnquestioningly accepting the value judgments of the narrator does not \nprovide us with solid ground for an interpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-06T04:29:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Chris\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that\nway? Why write it at all?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do authors intend every event they write about to be interpreted as a good \nthing? Well, that's not quite what I mean. How about: does Wolfe present it \nto us as a good thing, or is it *Severian* who presents it to us as a good \nthing? Again I think this is a shortcut to avoid rationally examining our \nreasons for thinking of the birth of Ushas to be a good thing. \nUnquestioningly accepting the value judgments of the narrator does not \nprovide us with solid ground for an interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Particularly if Wolfe intends (in some ways) to provide a critical analysis \nof (from a Christian perspective) of both the adequacies and inadequacies of \nan Old Testament approach to things. It'd thus be appropriate for there to \nbe Christ imagery surrounding Severian, as in some ways he's an Old \nTestament prophetic figure, and thus (in some Christian views, I think) \nprefigures - or in this case, maybe postfigures him (off the cuff, I think \nElijah or Elisha may be good analogues - despite the lack of bears eating \nunruly children in the narrative[1] - though I'll have to think about that, \nor possibly Joshua[2]).\n\nIn some sense, the whole thing could be an issuse of Severian mistaking a \nrenewed Earth for the Kindom of God. Or something.\n\nThe Long Sun/Short Sun books may be of some relevance to this - I'll have to \nreread the latter and finish reading the former, and think on that. If this \ntentative outline of preliminary possible theory survives the first round of \ncriticism, of course... :)\n\nIorwerth\n\n[1] In some ways a pity. I like bears, and think they should always be well \nfed.\n\n[2] In the book of Joshua, the attainment of the Promised Land is achieved \nvia genocide. Not the best start for a nation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-06T11:08:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iorwerth-the-ursiphile writing:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It'd thus be appropriate for there to be Christ imagery surrounding \nSeverian, as in some ways he's an Old Testament prophetic figure, and thus \n(in some Christian views, I think) prefigures - or in this case, maybe \npostfigures him (off the cuff, I think Elijah or Elisha may be good \nanalogues - despite the lack of bears eating unruly children in the \nnarrative[1] - though I'll have to think about that, or possibly \nJoshua[2])." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do alzabos count?\n\nMr. Andre-Driussi argues in his _Lexicon_ and elsewhere* that the alzabo may \nbe the \"ghoul-bear\" of Saint Anne, and young Severa, the daughter of Casdoe \nand Becan, is eaten by one.\n\n(*Vide http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/lions.htm)\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c53ae4$f3f4fa40$b03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-04-06T13:12:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nI thought that what you are calling the creation of the Hierogrammates was\na\n\"shaping\", that is, the men of the previous universe influenced their\ndevelopment rather than created them from whole cloth. And in turn the\nHierogrammates were influencing the humans of Severian's universe to return\nthe favor. Rather than being a great sin I thought this was something that\nwas supposed to elevate each in turn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true that the H's were shaped by man; it's also true that the H's were\ndoing unto man what had been done unto them. Man usurped the prerogative of\nthe Increate, a great wrong, and in the process caused great suffering,\nwhich the H's never forgot. It makes no sense for the H's to keep repeating\nthat wrong unless it is for a greater good than their own notions of revenge\nagainst the race that created them, a race they also are in awe of. That\n'greater good', I maintain, is that the human race \"advance my some minute\nstep\" with each repetition, to something nearer the desires of the Increate.\nAnd the H's might benefit also, I would add, by losing their awe of man and\nlearning to revere the Increate.\n\nI didn't want to have to do this, but maybe I should quote the whole\nrelevant passage from chapter XXXIV of CITADEL.\n-----------------------------------------------------------\nThese men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to\nsome degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them -\nthat they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and\nallies among their swarming worlds - they formed beings like themselves.\n\nIt was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died\nunder their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood.\nWhen their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that\nthe nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were\nsteered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the\nwork was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been\nmade was not a new race like humanity's, but a race such as humanity wished\nits own to be: united, compassionate, just.\n\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it\nsurvived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps\nit evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings humanity had shaped into\nwhat men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the\nuniverse higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they\nhad become." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking\nthey have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who\nshaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them - or our sons - or our\nfathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is\nat once their repayment and their revenge.\n\nThe Hierodules they were found too, and formed more quickly, to serve them\nin this universe. On their instructions, the Hierodules construct such ships\nas the one that bore me from the jungle to the sea, so that aquastors like\nMalrubius and Triskele may serve them also. With these tongs, we are held in\nthe forge.\n\nThe hammer they wield is their ability to draw their servants back, down\nthe corridors of time, and to send them hurtling forward to the future.\n(This power is in essence the same as that which permitted them to evade the\ndeath of their universe - to enter the corridors of time is to leave the\nuniverse.) 0n Urth at least, their anvil is the necessity of life: our need\nin this age to fight against an ever-more-hostile world with the resources\nof the depleted continents. Because it is as cruel as the means by which\nthey themselves were shaped, there is a conservation of justice; but when\nthe New Sun appears, it will be a signal that at last the earliest\noperations of the shaping are complete.\n---------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4255B216.4070705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-07T15:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nHold up a second. This interpretation of the Hierodules/Hierogrammates \nis something that I find to be surprising, which is not to say it's \nincorrect necessarily, but this was not how I was seeing things. This \nmay be a straightforward error on my part; I really ought to buy an \nelectronic copy of the books if one is available just to look up \nthings like this.\n\nI thought that what you are calling the creation of the Hierogrammates \nwas a \"shaping\", that is, the men of the previous universe influenced \ntheir development rather than created them from whole cloth. And in \nturn the Hierogrammates were influencing the humans of Severian's \nuniverse to return the favor. Rather than being a great sin I thought \nthis was something that was supposed to elevate each in turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if my use of \"H's\" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is \ncausing\nconfusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the\nhumans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the\nHierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in \nthe\neyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the \nIncreate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it \nthat\nway? Why write it at all?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do authors intend every event they write about to be interpreted as a \ngood thing? Well, that's not quite what I mean. How about: does Wolfe \npresent it to us as a good thing, or is it *Severian* who presents it \nto us as a good thing? Again I think this is a shortcut to avoid \nrationally examining our reasons for thinking of the birth of Ushas to \nbe a good thing. Unquestioningly accepting the value judgments of the \nnarrator does not provide us with solid ground for an interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True; Severian the Lame is not an uninterested party- the New Sun \nelevates him to levels of importance that couldn't help but gratify\nhis ego, and he could simply be embarassed at having been a little duped \ninto it (ref those earlier passages about how the assasin's\nstatements on the ship surprised him- did he really not realize what the \nNew Sun would do to make Urth Ushas?), and further more\nhe could well be retreating into that classic Christian's \napologia/defense of a God permitting or doing evil- 'Don't question \nGod/higher being;\nrather, have ''faith'' in their actions. All is for the best.'\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-04-07T17:02:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c53762$6875cb00$a53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/2/05 3:00 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nSeverian as Epitome is farcical. Most people on Urth would never even have\nheard of him. He was groomed, from before birth, to mindlessly obey whomever\nor whatever he was taught to regard as a higher authority than himself. When\nall the moral and ethical squirming stops, that comes down to 'might makes\nright'.\n\nIn the space of about six months, Sev went from a journeyman torturer raised\nin an artificially insulated corner of the Citadel, where he was woefully\nignorant of just about everything on Urth, to Autarch of the Commonwealth.\nThe ten years he held that position before leaving for Yesod were spent on\nbusywork; nothing he did then mattered at all.\n\nAs for the \"victim\" consenting to the \"sacrifice\", well, yes. That brings me\nback to that quote about the \"death agonies of the world you know will be\noffered to the Increate.\" I've said enough about that. And as I said on this\nlist years ago, it was an easy sacrifice for Sev, as Epitome, to make,\nbecause he didn't make it. It cost him _nothing_. He got his face and his\nleg fixed. His nascent godling powers were augmented. Oh, he may have felt\nbad for an hour or two, about the mess he made on Urth and all the dead, but\nhe got over it. It must have been awful for him, sitting on the beach on\nUshas, writing his memoirs and watching the native girls adore him as a god\nand wait on him hand and foot. Life is tough for a scapegoat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For that matter, the destruction of Urth doesn't cost the aquastors who\nfought with Severian anything, since they only exist inside Severian's head.\nThere are only two real people who fight for the New Sun, and one of these\nhas been indoctrinated from childhood to make this decision, as you pointed\nout." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as there was no real \"trial\", the fight with the sailors afterwards was\na charade, and for the same reason. Tzadkiel had already looked into the\nfuture and seen that Sev would bring the New Sun. He could not die in that\nfight if he was to bring the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure this is quite accurate. I know Tzadkiel at the trial talks as\nif Sev's success is certain; but later Apheta says that Tzadkiel \"had\nexamined the future and _found the chance high_ that you would bring a fresh\nsun to your Urth\" (160; emphasis mine); and the mini-Tzadkiel by the brook\ntells Sev \"you _have_ not failed. You could have on the ship and later; but\nyou couldn't die before the test, nor can you now, until your task is\naccomplished.\" (284; emphasis Wolfe's) The implication is that he could have\nindeed died during the test." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The H's had no need or desire for a sacrificial victim; they are not the\nIncreate. Their continued existence was not in jeopardy, no matter what\nhappened on Urth, because they lived in Yesod. That stuff I quoted in an\nearlier post about \"they shape us now as\nthey themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their\nrevenge\", is moot because _they already exist_. Unless they were just\ngetting their kicks by exacting \"revenge\" for wrongs done them in a dead\nuniverse an unimaginable time ago, then they had no reason to be concerned\nwith Urth.\n\nI know that Apheta says that the H's wanted Sev to succeed because that\nstrain of mankind born of Ushas might produce the Hieros, which would in\nturn shape the H's in Briah. But that doesn't change the fact that the H's\nalready exist and live in Yesod. There is no practical point in endlessly\nrepeating what has already been done in universe after universe. That's\nwhere the Increate comes in. They were doing his bidding. The goal was to\nimprove and transform mankind \"by some minute step\" in each cycle into\nsomething nearer and dearer to the Increate, just as they themselves had\nbeen transformed by mankind into a race that was \"united, compassionate,\njust.\" (CITADEL, 242)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apheta says: \"Your [Gunnie's] race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each\nother's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce\nyour ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would\nsay it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We\nhave wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he [Sev] has wanted to\nhimself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours;\nas we have saved ours of the future by saving yours.\" (UotNS, 159-60) This\nis after the New Sun's coming has been determined, so there is no reason why\nshe would lie. The most straightforward interpretation of this is that the\nUshas's strain of humanity will produce the \"next generation\" of\nHierogrammates. Earlier, iirc, you argued that this can't be true, because\nthe Hierogrammates, living in Yesod, are \"outside time\" and the\nbirth-and-collapse cycle of Briah. But, while they can indeed (apparently)\nmaneuver at will along the \"corridors of time\" in the current Briahtic\nuniverse, I don't recall any evidence that they are outside time in the\nsense that they are guaranteed to exist eternally, or that there can be no\n\"next generation\" of H's.\n\nOn the other hand, afaik nobody ever claims that the Increate has ordered\nthe New Sun to be brought, or Urth to be destroyed: neither Sev or the H's.\nIf the Increate had indeed given such an order, you would think that the\nfact would be important enough for somebody to mention it. It seems\nespecially odd that the H's would claim that they were killing millions of\npeople out of self-interest if this wasn't the case.\n\n(Granted, Wolfe deliberately (and pointlessly, to my mind) obfuscates this\nby suggesting in other places that the current humanity may produce the\ncurrent Hierogrammates. But this complication doesn't affect the point\ncurrently at issue.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-04-07T17:03:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<001001c53a70$f21a86a0$e03ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/6/05 12:21 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nI don't know if my use of \"H's\" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is causing\nconfusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the\nhumans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the\nHierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in the\neyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As far as I know, there is no evidence that the Increate considered the\nshaping of the Hierogrammates to be a sin. The Hieros' shaping of the\nHierogrammates is spoken of in terms equivalent to the Hierogrammates'\nshaping of Sev's race into the next \"generation\" of Hieros. There's nothing\nto indicate that one is a sin and the other isn't, or that one had the\nblessing of the Increate and the other didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me condense it this way: either the H's did what they did (mess with the\nSun, drown Urth, manipulate mankind, etc.) with the consent of the Increate,\nor they didn't. That they did have that consent is what I have argued. To\nargue that they only _thought_ they had that consent doesn't change\nanything; either they did or they didn't. The absence of divine sanction\nreduces the Pancreator to a spectator to events profoundly affecting his own\nCreation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Increate is omnipotent and omniscient, as the Christian God is, then\neverything that happens must be part of his \"plan\" in some sense. But it\ndoesn't follow that it all takes place at his order, or with his blessing.\nAn act can be part of God's plan, and yet still be a sin: the Crucifixion is\nan obvious example (speaking from a Christian point of view)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the Garden to Noah to the Christ, the Bible presents a decidedly contrary\nportrait of Divine Right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the first place, these examples are poor ones for your argument, since\nthey don't show God preventing sin, merely punishing it afterwards. In the\nsecond place, as I said before, there's no evidence in the New Sun books of\nthe Increate intervening directly in his creation at all. Even if you toss\nin the Long Sun and the Short Sun books, Wolfe's Increate is still far less\ninterventionist than the God of the Old Testament." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the H's had their own agenda -- regardless of what that agenda may have\nbeen -- and were operating without the blessing of the Increate, then they\nlack the _moral authority_ to pass judgement on mankind. It's that simple." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the H's explicitly say that they have their own agenda. As I say in my\nother post, it's hard to see why they would claim to have their own agenda\nif they actually don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without moral authority, the H's are just cosmic cowboys, hypocrites guilty\nof precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned. They can be\nneither \"compassionate\" nor \"just\", as Wolfe says of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe doesn't say it of them; Sev does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that\nway? Why write it at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe does indeed surround the coming of the New Sun with a religious aura,\nwhich makes it hard for me to simply say that he intended us see it as\nimmoral. But if by \"in a religious sense, a good thing\" you mean that it was\ndone at the Increate's order, I've been arguing that Wolfe didn't write it\nthat way, and I haven't yet seen anything to convince me otherwise. The\nhidden premise here seems to be that the destruction of Urth cannot be a\ngood thing unless it was ordered by the Increate. But there seem to be a lot\nof people on this list who don't agree, or who at least give reasons why\nit's a good thing without mentioning the Increate's orders. Wolfe may well\nhave seen things their way instead of yours.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4255EA64.5090300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "maru", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-07T19:20:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 4/6/05 12:21 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if my use of \"H's\" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is causing\nconfusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the\nhumans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the\nHierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in the\neyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I know, there is no evidence that the Increate considered the\nshaping of the Hierogrammates to be a sin. The Hieros' shaping of the\nHierogrammates is spoken of in terms equivalent to the Hierogrammates'\nshaping of Sev's race into the next \"generation\" of Hieros. There's nothing\nto indicate that one is a sin and the other isn't, or that one had the\nblessing of the Increate and the other didn't.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before we talk about what the Increate does and does not\nconsider a sin (and what is up with that name? A naive reading\nof it would make me think of a pan-theist cosmology but I'm\npretty sure that's not what Wolfe means.), let's establish\nwhether there have been any communications whatsoever\nfrom the Increate. \nAs far as my imperfect knowledge goes, the Increate never conveys anything\nand we are told that in the story of the cock.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Iorwerth Thomas", "address": "iorweththomas at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-08T03:15:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<4255EA64.5090300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: maru \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) the Epitome\nDate: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:20:20 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before we talk about what the Increate does and does not\nconsider a sin (and what is up with that name? A naive reading\nof it would make me think of a pan-theist cosmology but I'm\npretty sure that's not what Wolfe means.)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it may be a panentheistic set up (God permeates and transcends \nnature - hence the Increate refers to God active in Creation, the Pancreator \nrefers to God transcending nature; analogies to Spinoza can probably be \ndrawn here). Panentheism could be viewed as either the taking of certain \naspects of classical theism or pantheism to their logical conclusion, or as \na combination of aspects of the two (as in process theism). It _might_ be \nwhat Wolfe means, but I'm unwilling to bet on it at this point.\n\nIorwerth" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c53c77$47466e20$733ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-04-08T13:12:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam quoted me and wrote:\nJust as there was no real \"trial\", the fight with the sailors afterwards\nwas\na charade, and for the same reason. Tzadkiel had already looked into the\nfuture and seen that Sev would bring the New Sun. He could not die in\nthat\nfight if he was to bring the New Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure this is quite accurate. I know Tzadkiel at the trial talks as\nif Sev's success is certain; but later Apheta says that Tzadkiel \"had\nexamined the future and _found the chance high_ that you would bring a\nfresh\nsun to your Urth\" (160; emphasis mine); and the mini-Tzadkiel by the brook\ntells Sev \"you _have_ not failed. You could have on the ship and later; but\nyou couldn't die before the test, nor can you now, until your task is\naccomplished.\" (284; emphasis Wolfe's) The implication is that he could\nhave\nindeed died during the test." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is the implication, and Wolfe obviously intended it be read that\nway. I was aware of Apheta's statement of probability. But Tzadkiel (who\noutranks her [g] ), is unequivocal, saying \"you have already passed our\ntesting, which was an examination of the future you will create.\" Not\n\"_might_ create _if_ you survive the next few minutes of battle.\" If Sev had\ndied in that fight, Tzadkiel could not have looked into the future and\ndetermined that Sev would be the New Sun. The fortune-telling was over with\nbefore Sev ever set foot in the Hall of Justice; that's why he was there. As\nApheta told him \"Time runs as we ask here . . .\" (142) They had all\neternity, apparently, as many manvantaras as it took, from their base in\nYesod, to get it right. They got it right, or at least got the result they\nwere looking for in the future of Sev's Briah. That or the Increate ought to\nfire the whole damn bunch for unbelievable incompetence.\n\nAs for why Wolfe included the theoretical possibility of Sev's death in the\nfight with the sailors, I can only speculate. But I'd rather not, as it will\nonly lead to more religious arguments.\n\nBut, just for the sake of argument, suppose Sev _had_ been killed in the\nfight. What then? Would the H's just polish their halos and take up the\nharp? Game over? No further pursuit of their ultimate goal (whether that\ngoal was their own or the Increate's)? In other words, would Sev's death in\na brawl really change anything, in the long view? No. The H's would just\nwait for the next manvantara and try again. With the ability to scan time\nfrom one end of a universe to the other, and to manipulate outcomes, they\nheld all the high cards -- except the Joker.\n\nTzadkiel, as Zak, even left his \"demanding\" duties to board the Ship before\nit ever reached Yesod, so he could rub elbows with, and bask in the shadow\nof, the holy Conciliator, aka the New Sun, Sev. (152) If Sev had not been\nthat Conciliator, Zak would have been wasting his time. If Sev had died in\nthe fight, he could not have become the Conciliator. It was all a game, the\noutcome predetermined." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apheta says: \"Your [Gunnie's] race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each\nother's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you\nproduce\nyour ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would\nsay it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We\nhave wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he [Sev] has wanted to\nhimself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved\nours;\nas we have saved ours of the future by saving yours.\" (UotNS, 159-60) This\nis after the New Sun's coming has been determined, so there is no reason\nwhy\nshe would lie. The most straightforward interpretation of this is that the\nUshas's strain of humanity will produce the \"next generation\" of\nHierogrammates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier, iirc, you argued that this can't be true, because\nthe Hierogrammates, living in Yesod, are \"outside time\" and the\nbirth-and-collapse cycle of Briah. But, while they can indeed (apparently)\nmaneuver at will along the \"corridors of time\" in the current Briahtic\nuniverse, I don't recall any evidence that they are outside time in the\nsense that they are guaranteed to exist eternally, or that there can be no\n\"next generation\" of H's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did imply that there could be \"next generation\" H's as well as humans in a\npost subsequent to the one you are quoting here, the one where I gave that\nlong quote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, afaik nobody ever claims that the Increate has ordered\nthe New Sun to be brought, or Urth to be destroyed: neither Sev or the H's.\nIf the Increate had indeed given such an order, you would think that the\nfact would be important enough for somebody to mention it. It seems\nespecially odd that the H's would claim that they were killing millions of\npeople out of self-interest if this wasn't the case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And in a second post Adam wrote:\nBut the H's explicitly say that they have their own agenda. As I say in my\nother post, it's hard to see why they would claim to have their own agenda\nif they actually don't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Without moral authority, the H's are just cosmic cowboys, hypocrites\nguilty\nof precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned. They can\nbe\nneither \"compassionate\" nor \"just\", as Wolfe says of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe doesn't say it of them; Sev does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of\nUshas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that\nway? Why write it at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe does indeed surround the coming of the New Sun with a religious aura,\nwhich makes it hard for me to simply say that he intended us see it as\nimmoral. But if by \"in a religious sense, a good thing\" you mean that it\nwas\ndone at the Increate's order, I've been arguing that Wolfe didn't write it\nthat way, and I haven't yet seen anything to convince me otherwise. The\nhidden premise here seems to be that the destruction of Urth cannot be a\ngood thing unless it was ordered by the Increate. But there seem to be a\nlot\nof people on this list who don't agree, or who at least give reasons why\nit's a good thing without mentioning the Increate's orders. Wolfe may well\nhave seen things their way instead of yours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I gather that you want to keep the Increate out of the equation. Okay, then\n_what_ was the goal of generations of refinement of both humans and H's,\nfrom the H's perspective? Whence the moral high-horse they rode in on? Who\nhanded them the reins of Justice, allowing them to pass judgement on Urth\nand, ultimately, all of mankind? Did they take that function upon\nthemselves? What hubris!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier in this same post Adam wrote:\nIf the Increate is omnipotent and omniscient, as the Christian God is, then\neverything that happens must be part of his \"plan\" in some sense. But it\ndoesn't follow that it all takes place at his order, or with his blessing.\nAn act can be part of God's plan, and yet still be a sin: the Crucifixion\nis\nan obvious example (speaking from a Christian point of view)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the H's were simply unwitting instruments in God's plan, more's the pity\n(from a Christian viewpoint). Judas' kiss was such an act, which you have,\nin essence, labeled a sin. If the H's acted without the blessing of the\nIncreate, then they were sinners such as man has never seen on Urth, and\nbeyond. Nothing that Adam and Eve or Typhon ever did could begin to compare.\nThe H's have god-like powers and only entropy, it seems, can even slow them\ndown. And even that can be got around by just waiting in Yesod for the next\nBig Bang in Briah.\n\nAnd it makes Sev-the-Conciliator the dupe of a race of beings neither he nor\nanyone else have even a hope of thwarting. I just don't think that's the\nstory Wolfe wrote, or at least intended, to write.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004601c53c96$d1a09450$8787d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "from": { "name": "Alan Lewis", "address": "alanarc at frontiernet.net" }, "date": "2005-04-09T05:41:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c53c77$47466e20$733ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And then Severian said, \"I must believe in free will. I have no choice.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200504091251.j39Cpo3f030895@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-04-09T05:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<004601c53c96$d1a09450$8787d2d1@VALUED7B9600FA>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, just for the sake of argument, suppose Sev _had_ been killed \nin the\nfight. What then? Would the H's just polish their halos and take \nup the\nharp? Game over? No further pursuit of their ultimate goal \n(whether that\ngoal was their own or the Increate's)? In other words, would Sev's " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "death in\na brawl really change anything, in the long view? No. The H's \nwould just\nwait for the next manvantara and try again. With the ability to \nscan time\nfrom one end of a universe to the other, and to manipulate \noutcomes, they\nheld all the high cards -- except the Joker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would they have to wait for a new cycle? By the time of the trial, \nSev is an eidolon, created on the ship after he died encased in \nSidero. It was at that point Tzadkiel set the New Sun on its way, I \nbelieve. \n\n\"The winged woman of Father Inire's book awaited me in the wings. \nHer hands she clapped once, formally, as a great lady summons her \nmaid. As they parted there appeared between them a point of white \nlight, hot and flaming. It seemed to me that it was my own face, \nand my face a mask that stared into it.\" (p65)\n\nIf Sev the eidolon had died in the battle in Yesod, why not just \nmake a new eidolon and try again, until the they got the right \noutcome?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c53d99$d2f09540$523ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-04-09T23:52:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<200504091251.j39Cpo3f030895@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote:\nIf Sev the eidolon had died in the battle in Yesod, why not just\nmake a new eidolon and try again, until the they got the right\noutcome?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Logically, there is no reason not to. In fact, they did make a new eidolon\nagain when Sev died back in Apu's era. Venant's death was also logically\nmeaningless; if the Hierogrammates could, in effect, bring humans back to\nlife, they could do the same for their own kind. But this story isn't about\nreason -- it's about religion.\n\nThat's why I've maintained throughout that the destruction of Urth and the\nbirth of Ushas was largely symbolic. The H's told Sev there were but two\nchoices -- the New Sun or the ice future for Urth. If Sev died in the brawl\nthere would be no New Sun. If the H's were to be held to their word (and who\nbut the Increate could bind them?), and Sev had been killed by the\nice-future faction of sailors in that post-\"trial\" brawl, then they would\nhave been obliged to abide by the advertised rules of their own game to\nleave Urth to its long, slow decline. That or they were lying. And if they\nlied about that fundamental tenet, then everything about them is suspect,\nand Wolfe's story falls flat.\n\nThat's why, at a minimum, they would \"have to wait for a new cycle\".\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050411093031023a8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-11T12:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c53d99$d2f09540$523ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think not enough is being done to ask what is meant by \nthe Hieros in describing Severian as the \"epitome.\" To my\nmind it means that he is the most fully human in some sense.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "You probably do not want to know what that odor is. \nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-04-12T16:51:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) the Epitome", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050411093031023a8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI think not enough is being done to ask what is meant by\nthe Hieros in describing Severian as the \"epitome.\" To my\nmind it means that he is the most fully human in some sense.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Dryden quote was included in the 1913 Merriam Webster\ndictionary definition (but I don't know if that is true of the OED or\nSOD, which I believe is Wolfe's preference -- definitely the pun on\nApheta only works using the SOD):\n\nA man so various, that he seem'd to be\nNot one, but all mankind's epitome:\n\ncontinuing:\n\nStiff in opinions, always in the wrong;\nWas every thing by starts, and nothing long;\nBut, in the course of one revolving moon,\nWas chemist, fiddler, statesman, and buffoon:\nThen all for women, painting, rhyming, drinking,\nBesides ten thousand freaks that died in thinking.\n\nPerhaps overinterpretation, but I thought the Greek gloss of epitome\n\"cut into/onto/upon\" and perhaps even its meaning 1. an \"abridgement\"\nmight have made it attractive too.\n\nDavid Duffy," } ] } ] }