Subject: (urth) the Epitome

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 01:00:27 +0000

Adam quoted Andrew and wrote:
>> Roy says inter alia:
>>
>>> As I've said earlier, the destruction of Urth was largely a
>>> symbolic
>>> punishment; symbolic because Urth was man's ancestral birthplace,
>>> and
>>> mankind was dispersed too far and wide in the galaxy (galaxies?)
>>> for the
>>> Hierogrammates to overcome entropy (135) and hit mankind all at
>>> once.
>>
>> I feel that "symbolic" and "punishment" must both be wrong,
>> somehow.
>
>Agreed. As I read it, the punishment was placing the black hole in the Sun,
>and the New Sun is the lifting of that punishment. Tzadkiel's words to
>Severian at the "trial," and Apheta's words afterwards, make no sense if
the
>coming of the New Sun is supposed to be a punishment.

We three seem to be in agreement that mankind was being punished. The
difference is in the interpretation of the punishment. You see the
punishment as being the wounding of the sun, and I agree. But the "lifting
of that punishment" by bringing the New Sun is precisely what brought about
"the destruction of Urth" that I mentioned. Had there been no black hole
placed in the sun, there would have been no need of a white fountain to fix
it.

>> It must be that Ushas is a necessary part of the Plan. And it must,
>>
>> somehow, be necessary for the victim to consent in the sacrfice, by
>>
>> the assent of Sev as Epitome.
>>
>> I don't claim to know from the text why this should be the case,
>> but if it isn't, I don't think the narrative makes any sense.
>
>Again, I agree.

I agree that Ushas is part of the "Plan" by the Hierogrammates to "shape us
now as they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their
revenge." (CITADEL, 242) The H's had the power, as I showed in an earlier
quote, to make new worlds and new suns. But they didn't do that. They went
through the rigmarole of sending in a white fountain and washing away Urth
as it was, to make a new beginning, such as happened in Noah's time.The act
was largely symbolic because only Urth would be destroyed, not the tens of
thousands of other worlds on which man resided. The Green Man was an
evolutionary stage of the Plan that would culminate in the H's themselves.

>> (Personally, I find the idea of one person exemplifying the whole,
>> and the idea of a Greater End requiring the death of multitudes, to
>>
>> be quite repellant.
>
>Once more, I agree.

Severian as Epitome is farcical. Most people on Urth would never even have
heard of him. He was groomed, from before birth, to mindlessly obey whomever
or whatever he was taught to regard as a higher authority than himself. When
all the moral and ethical squirming stops, that comes down to 'might makes
right'.

In the space of about six months, Sev went from a journeyman torturer raised
in an artificially insulated corner of the Citadel, where he was woefully
ignorant of just about everything on Urth, to Autarch of the Commonwealth.
The ten years he held that position before leaving for Yesod were spent on
busywork; nothing he did then mattered at all.

As for the "victim" consenting to the "sacrifice", well, yes. That brings me
back to that quote about the "death agonies of the world you know will be
offered to the Increate." I've said enough about that. And as I said on this
list years ago, it was an easy sacrifice for Sev, as Epitome, to make,
because he didn't make it. It cost him _nothing_. He got his face and his
leg fixed. His nascent godling powers were augmented. Oh, he may have felt
bad for an hour or two, about the mess he made on Urth and all the dead, but
he got over it. It must have been awful for him, sitting on the beach on
Ushas, writing his memoirs and watching the native girls adore him as a god
and wait on him hand and foot. Life is tough for a scapegoat.

Just as there was no real "trial", the fight with the sailors afterwards was
a charade, and for the same reason. Tzadkiel had already looked into the
future and seen that Sev would bring the New Sun. He could not die in that
fight if he was to bring the New Sun. Besides, Sev and Apheta had already
conceived the New Sun _before_ the mock trial or phony fight. It was already
on its way to Urth.

The H's had no need or desire for a sacrificial victim; they are not the
Increate. Their continued existence was not in jeopardy, no matter what
happened on Urth, because they lived in Yesod. That stuff I quoted in an
earlier post about "they shape us now as
they themselves were shaped; it is at once their repayment and their
revenge", is moot because _they already exist_. Unless they were just
getting their kicks by exacting "revenge" for wrongs done them in a dead
universe an unimaginable time ago, then they had no reason to be concerned
with Urth.

I know that Apheta says that the H's wanted Sev to succeed because that
strain of mankind born of Ushas might produce the Hieros, which would in
turn shape the H's in Briah. But that doesn't change the fact that the H's
already exist and live in Yesod. There is no practical point in endlessly
repeating what has already been done in universe after universe. That's
where the Increate comes in. They were doing his bidding. The goal was to
improve and transform mankind "by some minute step" in each cycle into
something nearer and dearer to the Increate, just as they themselves had
been transformed by mankind into a race that was "united, compassionate,
just." (CITADEL, 242)

-Roy

---

From: Matt Tillman <tillmas at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:18:13 +0000

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:22:02 +0000

Matt Tillman wrote:

>Sorry, cut out most of this because I just wanted to respond to one
paragraph
>Roy C. Lackey wrote:

>>Why is it implausible that the H's are working along a non-linear timeline
to prevent anything from forestalling their own development.  Certainly, it
could be said that if we could work outside of time and guide our lives from
childhood, we might do things differently with all of that 20/20 hindsight.
Now imagine that we have more than 20/20 hindsight, because we operate on a
different plane of existance than the creatures that we are gradually
manipulating.<<
------------------------------------------------

I don't know if my use of "H's" as shorthand for Hierogrammates is causing
confusion with Hieros, or what. Anyway, to be clear, the Hieros were the
humans of a previous universe who caused the eventual creation of the
Hierogrammates. That creation was their great sin; a sin certainly in the
eyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate.

As I've already said, the H's already exist, in Yesod, independent of any
further Briah-like iterations of universes. Their development is not an
issue. If they found their creation to have been such a painful ordeal that
mankind had to be punished for it, why would they want to repeat it
endlessly if they didn't have to? And they didn't have to.

Let me condense it this way: either the H's did what they did (mess with the
Sun, drown Urth, manipulate mankind, etc.) with the consent of the Increate,
or they didn't. That they did have that consent is what I have argued. To
argue that they only _thought_ they had that consent doesn't change
anything; either they did or they didn't. The absence of divine sanction
reduces the Pancreator to a spectator to events profoundly affecting his own
Creation. From the Garden to Noah to the Christ, the Bible presents a
decidedly contrary portrait of Divine Right.

If the H's had their own agenda -- regardless of what that agenda may have
been -- and were operating without the blessing of the Increate, then they
lack the _moral authority_ to pass judgement on mankind. It's that simple.
Without moral authority, the H's are just cosmic cowboys, hypocrites guilty
of precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned . They can be
neither "compassionate" nor "just", as Wolfe says of them.

Finally, if Wolfe didn't intend the destruction of Urth and the birth of
Ushas to be, in a religious sense, a good thing, why did he write it that
way? Why write it at all?

-Roy

---

From: Andrew Kertesz <andrew.kertesz at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:01:54 +0000

> neither "compassionate" nor "just", as Wolfe says of them.

In Melito's story, the angel admits that it can only guesses the will
of the Increate - both the cock and the angel are inifitely far from
Him.

With that in mind, isn't it possible to be wise and just, and also to
work against the will of the Increate?

After all, we know that the Heirogrammates and Humans exchange places
- in modifying the humans, the H's condemn themselves. Why shouldn't
the destruction of Urth be part of the cycle?

Anyways, I think that the BotNS has more relevance as a story of
personal redemption + discovery, not one of biblical floods and
sourges.

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:06:54 +0000

Hold up a second. This interpretation of the Hierodules/Hierogrammates is 
something that I find to be surprising, which is not to say it's incorrect 
necessarily, but this was not how I was seeing things. This may be a 
straightforward error on my part; I really ought to buy an electronic copy 
of the books if one is available just to look up things like this.

I thought that what you are calling the creation of the Hierogrammates was a 
"shaping", that is, the men of the previous universe influenced their 
development rather than created them from whole cloth. And in turn the 
Hierogrammates were influencing the humans of Severian's universe to return 
the favor. Rather than being a great sin I thought this was something that 
was supposed to elevate each in turn.

>way? Why write it at all?

Do authors intend every event they write about to be interpreted as a good 
thing? Well, that's not quite what I mean. How about: does Wolfe present it 
to us as a good thing, or is it *Severian* who presents it to us as a good 
thing? Again I think this is a shortcut to avoid rationally examining our 
reasons for thinking of the birth of Ushas to be a good thing. 
Unquestioningly accepting the value judgments of the narrator does not 
provide us with solid ground for an interpretation.

---

From: Iorwerth Thomas <iorweththomas at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:29:47 +0000

>From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>

>provide us with solid ground for an interpretation.

Particularly if Wolfe intends (in some ways) to provide a critical analysis 
of (from a Christian perspective) of both the adequacies and inadequacies of 
an Old Testament approach to things.  It'd thus be appropriate for there to 
be Christ imagery surrounding Severian, as in some ways he's an Old 
Testament prophetic figure, and thus (in some Christian views, I think) 
prefigures - or in this case, maybe postfigures him (off the cuff, I think 
Elijah or Elisha may be good analogues - despite the lack of bears eating 
unruly children in the narrative[1] - though I'll have to think about that, 
or possibly Joshua[2]).

In some sense, the whole thing could be an issuse of Severian mistaking a 
renewed Earth for the Kindom of God.  Or something.

The Long Sun/Short Sun books may be of some relevance to this - I'll have to 
reread the latter and finish reading the former, and think on that.  If this 
tentative outline of preliminary possible theory survives the first round of 
criticism, of course... :)

Iorwerth

[1] In some ways a pity.  I like bears, and think they should always be well 
fed.

[2] In the book of Joshua, the attainment of the Promised Land is achieved 
via genocide.  Not the best start for a nation.

---

From: mournings glory <mourningsglory at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:08:05 +0000

Iorwerth-the-ursiphile writing:

>It'd thus be appropriate for there to be Christ imagery surrounding 
>Severian, as in some ways he's an Old Testament prophetic figure, and thus 
>(in some Christian views, I think) prefigures - or in this case, maybe 
>postfigures him (off the cuff, I think Elijah or Elisha may be good 
>analogues - despite the lack of bears eating unruly children in the 
>narrative[1] - though I'll have to think about that, or possibly 
>Joshua[2]).

Do alzabos count?

Mr. Andre-Driussi argues in his _Lexicon_ and elsewhere* that the alzabo may 
be the "ghoul-bear" of Saint Anne, and young Severa, the daughter of Casdoe 
and Becan, is eaten by one.

(*Vide http://artsweb.bham.ac.uk/jlaidlow/ultan/lions.htm)

msg

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:12:28 +0000

>was supposed to elevate each in turn.

It's true that the H's were shaped by man; it's also true that the H's were
doing unto man what had been done unto them. Man usurped the prerogative of
the Increate, a great wrong, and in the process caused great suffering,
which the H's never forgot. It makes no sense for the H's to keep repeating
that wrong unless it is for a greater good than their own notions of revenge
against the race that created them, a race they also are in awe of. That
'greater good', I maintain, is that the human race "advance my some minute
step" with each repetition, to something nearer the desires of the Increate.
And the H's might benefit also, I would add, by losing their awe of man and
learning to revere the Increate.

I didn't want to have to do this, but maybe I should quote the whole
relevant passage from chapter XXXIV of CITADEL.
-----------------------------------------------------------
These men encountered many beings on other worlds who had intelligence to
some degree, or at least the potential for intelligence, and from them -
that they might have comrades in the loneliness between the galaxies and
allies among their swarming worlds - they formed beings like themselves.

It was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and died
under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain and blood.
When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from galaxy that
the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the ships were
steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. Completed, the
work was greater than those who began it could have guessed. What had been
made was not a new race like humanity's, but a race such as humanity wished
its own to be: united, compassionate, just.

I was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it
survived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps
it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings humanity had shaped into
what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the
universe higher than our own, where they created worlds suited to what they
had become.

>>From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so looking
they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like that who
shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them - or our sons - or our
fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the truth.
However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were shaped; it is
at once their repayment and their revenge.

The Hierodules they were found too, and formed more quickly, to serve them
in this universe. On their instructions, the Hierodules construct such ships
as the one that bore me from the jungle to the sea, so that aquastors like
Malrubius and Triskele may serve them also. With these tongs, we are held in
the forge.

The hammer they wield is their ability to draw their servants back, down
the corridors of time, and to send them hurtling forward to the future.
(This power is in essence the same as that which permitted them to evade the
death of their universe - to enter the corridors of time is to leave the
universe.) 0n Urth at least, their anvil is the necessity of life: our need
in this age to fight against an ever-more-hostile world with the resources
of the depleted continents. Because it is as cruel as the means by which
they themselves were shaped, there is a conservation of justice; but when
the New Sun appears, it will be a signal that at last the earliest
operations of the shaping are complete.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

-Roy

---

From: maru <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:20:13 +0000

Chris wrote:

> Hold up a second. This interpretation of the Hierodules/Hierogrammates 
> is something that I find to be surprising, which is not to say it's 
> incorrect necessarily, but this was not how I was seeing things. This 
> may be a straightforward error on my part; I really ought to buy an 
> electronic copy of the books if one is available just to look up 
> things like this.
>
> I thought that what you are calling the creation of the Hierogrammates 
> was a "shaping", that is, the men of the previous universe influenced 
> their development rather than created them from whole cloth. And in 
> turn the Hierogrammates were influencing the humans of Severian's 
> universe to return the favor. Rather than being a great sin I thought 
> this was something that was supposed to elevate each in turn.
>
> Do authors intend every event they write about to be interpreted as a 
> good thing? Well, that's not quite what I mean. How about: does Wolfe 
> present it to us as a good thing, or is it *Severian* who presents it 
> to us as a good thing? Again I think this is a shortcut to avoid 
> rationally examining our reasons for thinking of the birth of Ushas to 
> be a good thing. Unquestioningly accepting the value judgments of the 
> narrator does not provide us with solid ground for an interpretation.

True; Severian the Lame is not an uninterested party- the New Sun 
elevates him to levels of importance that couldn't help but gratify
his ego, and he could simply be embarassed at having been a little duped 
into it (ref those earlier passages about how the assasin's
statements on the ship surprised him- did he really not realize what the 
New Sun would do to make Urth Ushas?), and further more
he could well be retreating into that classic Christian's 
apologia/defense of a God permitting or doing evil- 'Don't question 
God/higher being;
rather, have ''faith'' in their actions. All is for the best.'

~Maru

---

From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:02:45 +0000

> and wait on him hand and foot. Life is tough for a scapegoat.

For that matter, the destruction of Urth doesn't cost the aquastors who
fought with Severian anything, since they only exist inside Severian's head.
There are only two real people who fight for the New Sun, and one of these
has been indoctrinated from childhood to make this decision, as you pointed
out.

> fight if he was to bring the New Sun.

I'm not sure this is quite accurate. I know Tzadkiel at the trial talks as
if Sev's success is certain; but later Apheta says that Tzadkiel "had
examined the future and _found the chance high_ that you would bring a fresh
sun to your Urth" (160; emphasis mine); and the mini-Tzadkiel by the brook
tells Sev "you _have_ not failed. You could have on the ship and later; but
you couldn't die before the test, nor can you now, until your task is
accomplished." (284; emphasis Wolfe's) The implication is that he could have
indeed died during the test.

> been transformed by mankind into a race that was "united, compassionate,

Apheta says: "Your [Gunnie's] race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each
other's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce
your ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would
say it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We
have wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he [Sev] has wanted to
himself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours;
as we have saved ours of the future by saving yours." (UotNS, 159-60) This
is after the New Sun's coming has been determined, so there is no reason why
she would lie. The most straightforward interpretation of this is that the
Ushas's strain of humanity will produce the "next generation" of
Hierogrammates. Earlier, iirc, you argued that this can't be true, because
the Hierogrammates, living in Yesod, are "outside time" and the
birth-and-collapse cycle of Briah. But, while they can indeed (apparently)
maneuver at will along the "corridors of time" in the current Briahtic
universe, I don't recall any evidence that they are outside time in the
sense that they are guaranteed to exist eternally, or that there can be no
"next generation" of H's.

On the other hand, afaik nobody ever claims that the Increate has ordered
the New Sun to be brought, or Urth to be destroyed: neither Sev or the H's.
If the Increate had indeed given such an order, you would think that the
fact would be important enough for somebody to mention it. It seems
especially odd that the H's would claim that they were killing millions of
people out of self-interest if this wasn't the case.

(Granted, Wolfe deliberately (and pointlessly, to my mind) obfuscates this
by suggesting in other places that the current humanity may produce the
current Hierogrammates. But this complication doesn't affect the point
currently at issue.)

--Adam

---

From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:03:03 +0000

> eyes of the H's, but also, more importantly, in the eyes of the Increate.

As far as I know, there is no evidence that the Increate considered the
shaping of the Hierogrammates to be a sin. The Hieros' shaping of the
Hierogrammates is spoken of in terms equivalent to the Hierogrammates'
shaping of Sev's race into the next "generation" of Hieros. There's nothing
to indicate that one is a sin and the other isn't, or that one had the
blessing of the Increate and the other didn't.

> Creation.

If the Increate is omnipotent and omniscient, as the Christian God is, then
everything that happens must be part of his "plan" in some sense. But it
doesn't follow that it all takes place at his order, or with his blessing.
An act can be part of God's plan, and yet still be a sin: the Crucifixion is
an obvious example (speaking from a Christian point of view).

> From the Garden to Noah to the Christ, the Bible presents a decidedly contrary
portrait of Divine Right.

In the first place, these examples are poor ones for your argument, since
they don't show God preventing sin, merely punishing it afterwards. In the
second place, as I said before, there's no evidence in the New Sun books of
the Increate intervening directly in his creation at all. Even if you toss
in the Long Sun and the Short Sun books, Wolfe's Increate is still far less
interventionist than the God of the Old Testament.

> lack the _moral authority_ to pass judgement on mankind. It's that simple.

But the H's explicitly say that they have their own agenda. As I say in my
other post, it's hard to see why they would claim to have their own agenda
if they actually don't.

> of precisely the same sin for which mankind had been condemned. They can be

Wolfe doesn't say it of them; Sev does.

> way? Why write it at all?

Wolfe does indeed surround the coming of the New Sun with a religious aura,
which makes it hard for me to simply say that he intended us see it as
immoral. But if by "in a religious sense, a good thing" you mean that it was
done at the Increate's order, I've been arguing that Wolfe didn't write it
that way, and I haven't yet seen anything to convince me otherwise. The
hidden premise here seems to be that the destruction of Urth cannot be a
good thing unless it was ordered by the Increate. But there seem to be a lot
of people on this list who don't agree, or who at least give reasons why
it's a good thing without mentioning the Increate's orders. Wolfe may well
have seen things their way instead of yours.

--Adam

---

From: maru <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:20:44 +0000

>blessing of the Increate and the other didn't.
Before we talk about what the Increate does and does not
consider a sin (and what is up with that name? A naive reading
of it would make me think of a pan-theist cosmology but I'm
pretty sure that's not what Wolfe means.), let's establish
whether there have been any communications whatsoever
from the Increate. 
As far as my imperfect knowledge goes, the Increate never conveys anything
and we  are told that in the story of the cock.

~Maru

---

From: Iorwerth Thomas <iorweththomas at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 03:15:22 +0000

>From: maru <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
>Subject: Re: (urth) the Epitome
>Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:20:20 -0400

>pretty sure that's not what Wolfe means.),

I think it may be a panentheistic set up (God permeates and transcends 
nature - hence the Increate refers to God active in Creation, the Pancreator 
refers to God transcending nature; analogies to Spinoza can probably be 
drawn here).   Panentheism could be viewed as either the taking of certain 
aspects of classical theism or pantheism to their logical conclusion, or as 
a combination of aspects of the two (as in process theism).  It _might_ be 
what Wolfe means, but I'm unwilling to bet on it at this point.

Iorwerth

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:12:27 +0000

>indeed died during the test.

Yes, that is the implication, and Wolfe obviously intended it be read that
way. I was aware of Apheta's statement of probability. But Tzadkiel (who
outranks her [g] ), is unequivocal, saying "you have already passed our
testing, which was an examination of the future you will create." Not
"_might_ create _if_ you survive the next few minutes of battle." If Sev had
died in that fight, Tzadkiel could not have looked into the future and
determined that Sev would be the New Sun. The fortune-telling was over with
before Sev ever set foot in the Hall of Justice; that's why he was there. As
Apheta told him "Time runs as we ask here . . ." (142) They had all
eternity, apparently, as many manvantaras as it took, from their base in
Yesod, to get it right. They got it right, or at least got the result they
were looking for in the future of Sev's Briah. That or the Increate ought to
fire the whole damn bunch for unbelievable incompetence.

As for why Wolfe included the theoretical possibility of Sev's death in the
fight with the sailors, I can only speculate. But I'd rather not, as it will
only lead to more religious arguments.

But, just for the sake of argument, suppose Sev _had_ been killed in the
fight. What then? Would the H's just polish their halos and take up the
harp? Game over? No further pursuit of their ultimate goal (whether that
goal was their own or the Increate's)? In other words, would Sev's death in
a brawl really change anything, in the long view? No. The H's would just
wait for the next manvantara and try again. With the ability to scan time
from one end of a universe to the other, and to manipulate outcomes, they
held all the high cards -- except the Joker.

Tzadkiel, as Zak, even left his "demanding" duties to board the Ship before
it ever reached Yesod, so he could rub elbows with, and bask in the shadow
of, the holy Conciliator, aka the New Sun, Sev. (152) If Sev had not been
that Conciliator, Zak would have been wasting his time. If Sev had died in
the fight, he could not have become the Conciliator. It was all a game, the
outcome predetermined.

>Hierogrammates.

Agreed.

> Earlier, iirc, you argued that this can't be true, because

I did imply that there could be "next generation" H's as well as humans in a
post subsequent to the one you are quoting here, the one where I gave that
long quote.

>have seen things their way instead of yours.

I gather that you want to keep the Increate out of the equation. Okay, then
_what_ was the goal of generations of refinement of both humans and H's,
from the H's perspective? Whence the moral high-horse they rode in on? Who
handed them the reins of Justice, allowing them to pass judgement on Urth
and, ultimately, all of mankind? Did they take that function upon
themselves? What hubris!

>an obvious example (speaking from a Christian point of view).

If the H's were simply unwitting instruments in God's plan, more's the pity
(from a Christian viewpoint). Judas' kiss was such an act, which you have,
in essence, labeled a sin. If the H's acted without the blessing of the
Increate, then they were sinners such as man has never seen on Urth, and
beyond. Nothing that Adam and Eve or Typhon ever did could begin to compare.
The H's have god-like powers and only entropy, it seems, can even slow them
down. And even that can be got around by just waiting in Yesod for the next
Big Bang in Briah.

And it makes Sev-the-Conciliator the dupe of a race of beings neither he nor
anyone else have even a hope of thwarting. I just don't think that's the
story Wolfe wrote, or at least intended, to write.

-Roy

---

From: Alan Lewis <alanarc at frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 05:41:49 +0000

And then Severian said, "I must believe in free will.  I have no choice."

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 05:52:07 +0000

Roy says:

>goal was their own or the Increate's)? In other words, would Sev's 

>death in

Would they have to wait for a new cycle? By the time of the trial, 
Sev is an eidolon, created on the ship after he died encased in 
Sidero. It was at that point Tzadkiel set the New Sun on its way, I 
believe. 

"The winged woman of Father Inire's book awaited me in the wings. 
Her hands she clapped once, formally, as a great lady summons her 
maid. As they parted there appeared between them a point of white 
light, hot and flaming. It seemed to me that it was my own face, 
and my face a mask that stared into it." (p65)

If Sev the eidolon had died in the battle in Yesod, why not just 
make a new eidolon and try again, until the they got the right 
outcome?

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 23:52:15 +0000

>make a new eidolon and try again, until the they got the right

Logically, there is no reason not to. In fact, they did make a new eidolon
again when Sev died back in Apu's era. Venant's death was also logically
meaningless; if the Hierogrammates could, in effect, bring humans back to
life, they could do the same for their own kind. But this story isn't about
reason -- it's about religion.

That's why I've maintained throughout that the destruction of Urth and the
birth of Ushas was largely symbolic. The H's told Sev there were but two
choices -- the New Sun or the ice future for Urth. If Sev died in the brawl
there would be no New Sun. If the H's were to be held to their word (and who
but the Increate could bind them?), and Sev had been killed by the
ice-future faction of sailors in that post-"trial" brawl, then they would
have been obliged to abide by the advertised rules of their own game to
leave Urth to its long, slow decline. That or they were lying. And if they
lied about that fundamental tenet, then everything about them is suspect,
and Wolfe's story falls flat.

That's why, at a minimum, they would "have to wait for a new cycle".

-Roy

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:38:21 +0000

I think not enough is being done to ask what is meant by 
the Hieros in describing Severian as the "epitome." To my
mind it means that he is the most fully human in some sense.

--Dan'l

-- 
You probably do not want to know what that odor is. 
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:51:19 +0000

> mind it means that he is the most fully human in some sense.

Well, the Dryden quote was included in the 1913 Merriam Webster
dictionary definition (but I don't know if that is true of the OED or
SOD, which I believe is Wolfe's preference -- definitely the pun on
Apheta only works using the SOD):

A man so various, that he seem'd to be
Not one, but all mankind's epitome:

continuing:

Stiff in opinions, always in the wrong;
Was every thing by starts, and nothing long;
But, in the course of one revolving moon,
Was chemist, fiddler, statesman, and buffoon:
Then all for women, painting, rhyming, drinking,
Besides ten thousand freaks that died in thinking.

Perhaps overinterpretation, but I thought the Greek gloss of epitome
"cut into/onto/upon" and perhaps even its meaning 1. an "abridgement"
might have made it attractive too.

David Duffy,