{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4401", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4401, "subject": "Abraham", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2005-04-09T08:54:16+00:00", "last": "2005-04-12T08:53:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050409155412.55213.qmail@web54406.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-04-09T08:54:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another Hyperion fan! Excellent...\nSimmons answer is rather ingenious, but also still flawed.\nI mean, suppose he had tested Yaweh, and Yaweh turned out to\nnaught but another flase god, that apparently abounded at the time\nof the Pentateuch's composition; Abraham would turn out to have\nbeen not just a sucker, but also a... whatever -cide applies to a guy\nwho just killed his son in a rather nasty way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But you also have to remember that Yaweh had (apparently) given Abraham that son. \nThis situation for Abraham (if you buy this story) is radically different from\nanything we experience. Imagine that someone, who is so much more powerful than you\nthat you believe He might be all-powerful, speaks to you and tells you that He is\ngoing to help you out and that your descendents are going to be His special people. \nYou scoff because you are old and your wife is barren, but this being tells you that\nyour wife is going to bear a child. She does, and so now you're starting to wonder\nif maybe it wasn't just the pizza and beer talking. Then this same being commands\nyou to sacrifice your new son, which feels like a gift from him, back to him. For\nAbraham, now he really is tested the nature of the universe. If this being he's\nspeaking to really is all-powerful, and He really wants Abraham to kill his own son,\nthen it seems the universe is actually being run by a demon, and so there's not much\nto look forward to anyway. Even if he's not all-powerful, he's much more powerful\nthan Abraham, and so the world is a cruel place where capricious spirits give and\ntake back life according to their own whims. But if somehow everything works out,\nthen Abraham has a son and a promise of safeguard from a benevolent divinity. It's\na rough spot to be in, and pretty uncomparable to most moral dilemmas, I think. I\nmean, just the premise, \"a god speaks to you and . . .,\" kind of throws most of our\nmoral systems off base, doesn't it? We don't account for that kind of stuff because\nit doesn't happen much.\n\nI don't think the question, \"Why did Abraham do as he did?\" is as puzzling as the\nquestion, \"Why would a benevolent God ask his follower to sacrifice his own son?\" \nIt seems like a pretty awful place to put someone in, because on the one hand, you\nwant complete devotion, but on the other, you don't want your follower to be the\nkind of person who would kill their own son! The only answer I can think of from a\nBiblical perspective is that God wants his followers to be like Him, and God was\nprepared to sacrifice His own Son.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705041109215818e6cd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-11T12:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": "<20050409155412.55213.qmail@web54406.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nathan,\n\nThe \"Sacrifice of Isaac\" (or \"Abraham's Sacrifice\") is a huge topic\nin Jewish theology. Aside from the entire discussion of Abraham\ntrusting the God who had given him this son when it shoudl have\nbeen impossible, there's a question of Isaac - as a common \nancestor of all the Tribes - being in some way emblematic of the\nTribes as a sacrifice for all the world (\"In your name shall all\nnations be blessed\"). And, it's tied into the theology of survival\nand the Remnant.\n\nIt isn't small in Christian theology either, of course, with the \nsacrifice of a miraculously-born son being a \"type\" of the Father's\nsacrifice of His Son.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "You probably do not want to know what that odor is. \nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601c53ede$1bf54d90$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-04-11T14:35:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705041109215818e6cd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It isn't small in Christian theology either, of course, with the\nsacrifice of a miraculously-born son being a \"type\" of the Father's\nsacrifice of His Son." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who has a ram provided by God sacrificed in his place. In Christian \ntheology, Isaac is a \"type\" for the Christ *and* mankind. The story is \nliterally stewing in available Christian symbolism. Just the sort of \noverloading of symbolism that Wolfe is so keen on.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050411222151.93528.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nathan Spears", "address": "spearofsolomon at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-04-11T15:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": "<003601c53ede$1bf54d90$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm with you. But for those who believe in the story literally, or even those who\nlook to Biblical story as templates for their own actions, the fact that it is\nsymbolic of later events doesn't change the facts of the almost-sacrifice of Isaac\nitself. In other words, God wouldn't have acted this way, or even told such a\nstory, in order to simply illustrate a future event. The actions of the story also\nhave to be consistent with the way God behaves, right?\n\nNate" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It isn't small in Christian theology either, of course, with the\nsacrifice of a miraculously-born son being a \"type\" of the Father's\nsacrifice of His Son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who has a ram provided by God sacrificed in his place. In Christian \ntheology, Isaac is a \"type\" for the Christ *and* mankind. The story is \nliterally stewing in available Christian symbolism. Just the sort of \noverloading of symbolism that Wolfe is so keen on.\n\n~ Crush \n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705041115445e29c5fb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-11T15:44:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": "<20050411222151.93528.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 11, 2005 3:21 PM, Nathan Spears wrote:\nI'm with you. But for those who believe in the story literally, or even\nthose who look to Biblical story as templates for their own actions, the\nfact that it is symbolic of later events doesn't change the facts of the\nalmost-sacrifice of Isaac itself. In other words, God wouldn't have\nacted this way, or even told such a story, in order to simply illustrate\na future event. The actions of the story also have to be consistent\nwith the way God behaves, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it does. \n\nOne thing it seems to indicate - to Christians and Jews alike - is that God \nasks us to be willing to sacrifice everything, and doesn't promise to provide\n a ram (Abraham went to the mountain fully expecting to sacrifice his son).\n\nAnother: God keeps promises. But does not promise that it will look\nthat way. \n\nAnother: That obdience will sometimes be painful and terrifying.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "You probably do not want to know what that odor is. \nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003201c53f77$bb5f72e0$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-04-12T08:53:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Abraham", "in_reply_to": "<20050411222151.93528.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nIt isn't small in Christian theology either, of course, with the\nsacrifice of a miraculously-born son being a \"type\" of the Father's\nsacrifice of His Son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush wrote:\nWho has a ram provided by God sacrificed in his place. In Christian\ntheology, Isaac is a \"type\" for the Christ *and* mankind. The story is\nliterally stewing in available Christian symbolism. Just the sort of\noverloading of symbolism that Wolfe is so keen on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nathan wrote:\nI'm with you. But for those who believe in the story literally, or even\nthose who look to Biblical story as templates for their own actions,\nthe fact that it is symbolic of later events doesn't change the facts of\nthe almost-sacrifice of Isaac itself. In other words, God wouldn't\nhave acted this way, or even told such a story, in order to simply\nillustrate a future event. The actions of the\nstory also have to be consistent with the way God behaves, right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure they have to be consistent.\nGod didn't have Abraham perform a human sacrifice; he only asked Abraham to\nshow that he WOULD...that the gift was not more precious to him than the\nGiver. That Pharisee the Apostle Paul asserted that Abraham himself did not\nbelieve that Isaac would be ultimately murdered because of God's promise. He\nsaid Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead (more\nChristian imagery). Since God did not permit a human sacrifice, I don't see\nanything inconsistent to his stated nature.\n\nA historical reading of the text does not preclude the typological reading.\nMuch to the contrary, those who read it historically ALL read it JUST\nlike the woman in tBotNS who said \"the reason\nthings were made so was so the cathedral would rise just like it did...the\nHand in nature.\"\n\nThose who read the story as an historical event believe God did what he did\nwith Abraham to reveal Himself to him personally but they believe that at\nthe same time God had his eye to a larger audience. He didn't *have* to\ndo it they way he did with the sacrifice but He opted to to place Abraham\nunwittingly on a stage with the future generations in the audience. Thus\n(they say) God had Abraham go through a test, the results of which He\nalready knew the outcome since He knew Abraham's thoughts and heart. In\nNumbers, He sends snakes to bite rebellious Israelites and has Moses\nmake a graven image (talk about your inconsistencies)...a bronze serpent...\nand lift it on a pole so that whoever looked at it would be healed.\nHe does this even though He could have healed them directly in order\nto present an image of Christ's crucifixion and his \"becoming sin for us\".\nIn Deuteronomy, He punished Moses for striking a rock with his staff\ninstead of talking to it with the seemingly arbitrarily severe (yet, they\nwould say, entirely just) punishment of denying him access to the\nPromised Land to show that the Law could take the Jews only so\nfar and they would need Joshua (the same name as Jesus [Y'shua])\nto lead them out of the wilderness of Zin (possibly phonetically\nindistinguishable from \"sin\"). I'm not prepared to\nprove it, but I suspect typological reading of the Bible is something\nChristians inherited from the Jews.\n\nThis is just like the way Wolfe presents rationalizations for Christian\nmysteries (such as the Trinity) within SF stories that have nothing\nostensibly to do with the Bible, Jesus, etc.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }