{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4402",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 4402,
    "subject": "Undines+humans =3D3D Green Man?",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2005-04-10T05:29:48+00:00",
    "last": "2005-04-11T06:46:15+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<200504101229.j3ACTN3w095181@mailserver3.hushmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com",
        "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com"
      },
      "date": "2005-04-10T05:29:48+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Undines+humans =3D3D Green Man?",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "The status of Abaia et al with the coming of Ushas has bugged me. \nThey survive (as far as I know), there's lots of water for them, \nand if they want to create a race of slaves it seems that they \nshould be ideally positioned to do it, given that the Commonwealth \nhas been destroyed & that humanity has been reduced to a scattered \nremnant. \n\nOne of the first descriptions we have of Abaia is in Sev's dream \nwhile he shares a bed with Baldanders: the undines say, \"... Abaia, \nwho will one day devour the continents.\" (Shadow, p98) To the \nextent that the ocean is the realm of Abaia et al, this is pretty \nmuch what happens with the coming of the New Sun.\n\nApart from a whole lot of people being killed and Urth becoming \nUshas, the coming of the New Sun also heralds the emergence of a \nnew race. We are given lots of hints about this (eg, in Talos' \nplay) & I guess it must necessarily be true, if the New Sun is \nvital for the eventual emergence of the Hieros.\n\nI have a notion that Abaia et al will play an essential part in \nthis. What examplar of a new race do we actually encounter, whose \nexistence is predicated on the New Sun? Obviously, the Green Man. I \ndon't think it's a big leap to see him as a stage in the evolution \ntowards Hiero-ness. What are his distinguishing characteristics vs \nold-style humans? Algae in the blood for energy and the ability to \ntime travel.  Who does that remind me of? The undines.\n\nMaybe a hint: while Sev prepares to torture junior Undine Idas in \nhis cabin on the ship, he has these thoughts about why he had not \nat first recognized Idas as an undine: \"The undine's [Juturna's] \nhair had been green, not white; perhaps that had done most of all. \nI should have realized then that such a true and vivid green is not \nfound in men or beasts with hair or fur, and when it seems to occur \nis the effect of algae, like that of the blood of the green man at \nSaltus.\"\n\nJuturna says of Abaia that his goal has been to \"make of us a great \npeople\". (UOTNS, p306) This, of course, is also one way of \nexpressing the goal of the Hieros.  Both have proceeded up until \nnow with equivalent harshness: Abaia by \"taming\" a swathe of urth's \npopulation, \"cutting out their conation\"; the Hieros by cutting the \nheart out of the Old Sun. \n\nImmediately after Juturna's speech, Sev reflects on Famulimus' \nSocratic question: \"Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have \nyou not thought it might be someting more?\" And then on aquastor-\nMalrubius' belief (taken from Sev's own mind) that Juturna had \nsaved him from drowning because \"I would be a torturer and an \nAutarch. It might be that neither he nor the undine were wholly \nwrong.\" \n\nHe recalls aquastor-Malrubius' image of humanity being forged \nbetween hammer and anvil. I believe these are the Plan of Abaia, \nand the Plan of the Hieros. With the coming of the New Sun, perhaps \na synthesis between the two is achieved, and perhaps it is indeed \nthe case that Sev has furthered the ends of both.\n\nOn this story, Abaia et al opposed the coming of the New Sun \nbecause they wished to work their Plan with Old Humans as the raw \nmaterial. Perhaps some species of compassion was involved. (If they \nare like the Mother on Blue, this is easy to believe: everything we \nsee of her is consistent a being who wants to be loved and \nworshipped & is extravagant with her gifts in return. She is \ndangerous, I think, not because she is evil, but because prayers to \nher are efficacious.)\n\nYou could argue that the Ascians and their war are not the work of \nbenevolent beings; but they same could be said of gutting the sun, \nand it takes two to make a lasting war.\n\nAnyway, continuing the made-up story: presented with the fait \naccompli of the New Sun, Abaia et al change tack. Now gigantism and \nretreat to the ocean are not the only option for longevity; a bit \nof Abaian genetic engineering and some pond scum will do instead. \nGreen Men instead of undines, and (somehow or other) we're on the \nevolutionary path towards Hiero-hood. \n\nYou also need to posit some kind of reconciliation between the aims \nof Abaia and the aims of the Hieros. Perhaps Sev is a \"Conciliator\" \nin this respect as well."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20050411134254.13978.qmail@web54203.mail.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "nastler",
        "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk"
      },
      "date": "2005-04-11T06:46:15+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Undines+humans =3D3D Green Man?",
      "in_reply_to": "<200504101229.j3ACTN3w095181@mailserver3.hushmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "No-one has yet replied to Andrews exciting post. I\nhave been wishing they would. It states plainly what\nothers have only dared hint at in the archives (for\nexample, marc talked about the similarities between\nthe pelagic powers Mother/seawrack and Tad/miniTad\nconglomerations).\n\nA \"deal\" between two powers (Abia/mother who deserves\n\"respect not worship\" and the Hieros as the legitimate\nexecutors of the Increate) with a human conciliator\n(or stud).\n\nThe powers of the deep could destroy Urthlings, but\ndon't because they want us as slaves. The Heirodules\ncould supply the Commonwealth with enough power to\ndefeat the Ascians, but don't (only enough to check\nthem) because they want our transendence (but not on\nTyphons terms and conditions). An impasse. A mexican\nstand-off.\n\nBoth see Sev as a sexual (genetic) object. If Sev had\njumped off the sandbank onto Juturna would she have\ndrowned him or made little undines with him (an Ida or\nSeaWrack?). Apheta needs Sevs genome too, but\n(presumably for Lamarkian reasons) he needs to resist\nthe advances of the deep powers until he has assended\nto heaven where he can deliver a consent to \"the plan\"\nand make a union between heaven and Urth. Apheta\nthereby extracts an \"optimised\" genome.\n\nUshas is born. The Undines leap with joy as this\n\"victory\" means they can now monopolise the surviving\nUrthlings and populate the globe with\nproto-greenmanians (Neighbours?). The Heirodules smile\nsmugly as this is all part of the bigger game plan, to\ncreate a race that will one day torture the Heiro's\ninto existence.\n\nnastler"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}