Subject: (urth) Various Short Sun Matters

From: studio at studiobl.com <studio at studiobl.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:27:43 +0000

I am just finishing a third(?) reading of RTTW.  I felt that I was 
beginning to get some inklings of new insight, and have resolved to 
re-read the entire BOTN, making marginal notes.

I have a few thoughts and questions, though.

Has anyone worked out a timeline of events.  I found that this time, I 
was able to keep track of the different time sequences better than 
previously, but on beginning to reread the first book, I started 
becoming confused just where SilkHorn's time in Gaon fit into the 
timeline.

Why is Seawrack missing a limb.  At one point, I thought Babbie had 
bitten it off, resulting in some kind of psyche transference, but I'm 
not so sure of this now.

Does Seawrack's ability to trigger uncontrollable rutting behavior have 
any thing to do with inter-species breeding experiments?

What is the encrusted thing that climbs aboard Horn's boat?

I thought the broken dome on the island had most likely been a 
greenhouse for genetic experiments.  Possibly human/plant hybrids 
resulting in the Neighbors.  --The Neighbors would then be humans 
transformed to meet new environmental stresses.  Why then, would 
similar domes be at the bottom of the sea, as Seawrack mentions?

Is Horn made part Neighbor on the island?  Or just what the heck 
happens in the pit?

If the Neighbors allowed the Imhumi to became part human in order to 
compare the result with the result of Inhumi infused with Neighbor 
blood, where are the Neighbor/Inhumi?

Why does Horn's son see a Neighbor sitting on a "tree branch" when he 
looks through Horn's ring?

I think much of this fits together as a breeding or hybridization 
program.  The three races (Neighbors, Humans and Inhumi) are brought 
together to create hybrids that are desirable somehow to someone.  This 
is accomplished, in part by bringing the colonists from the Whorl to 
Blue and Green.  The Whorl is to be sent away with a cargo of pure 
human stock, presumably with the idea to repeat the hybridization in 
another 600 years or so.  Possibly this is why the Neighbors have 'gone 
away' --to preserve remaining pure stock for future hybridization.

Have the Neighbors really gone anywhere if you can find one just by 
peeping through one of their rings?  What is that damn ring anyway?  It 
seemed like Horn left it on Green when he was placed into Silk's body.  
Then he got a different ring that seem to turn, over time into the 
original ring.

Is one of the three races the method of hybridization, rather than a 
base stock?  Possibly the Inhumi?

If the gods have hidden in animals, is Echidna in Babbie?  Is someone 
in Oreb?  Is Oreb even the original Oreb?  Could Scylla be in Oreb for 
some reason?  I'm not sure why I think this last, I seem to remember 
some connection between the two, possibly from the Long Sun Books.  A 
lot of what happened around Lake Limna seemed fishy to me.  I think 
there is a lot of hints in that portion of the book that I couldn't 
quite get.

Anything about the ocean-dwelling giants confuses me.  I still don't 
quite get it about Abaia and whatnot.  Was he just an alien who was 
scheming to take over Urth?  Where does the Mother (in Blue's ocean) 
fit into the picture?  She seems to be less malign than Abaia and his 
wives.

I wonder if Mucor is able to assist with the transference of the 
psyches others--kind of like a human Sacred Window.  If she could 
appear to the blind Pig, she may have offered to release the trapped 
PasSilk.  She may also have been removing some rider from Babbie when 
Horn returned to Maytera's island with her eye.  ...either Echidna, 
some part of Echidna, or even part of herself...a sort of recording 
mechanism by which Mucor could plant part of herself, then retrieve it 
later and access its memory.

I don't doubt that some of these questions have been answered 
before...searching the Urth archives can be kind of frustrating, 
though--lots of slogging through barely related material.

Possibly more questions than thoughts...

Brian Lovely

Studio bl
http://www.studiobl.com

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:22:08 +0000

Ah! How nice to get some Short Sun questions. Personally, I'm so "over" the 
New Sun issues right now.

>Is Horn made part Neighbor on the island?  Or just what the heck happens in 
>the pit?

My opinion:
http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/000274.html

>Has anyone worked out a timeline of events.  I found that this time, I was 
>able to keep track of the different time sequences better than previously, 
>but on beginning to reread the first book, I started becoming confused just 
>where SilkHorn's time in Gaon fit into the timeline.

Have you really read "The Short Sun" twice without resolving this? That's a 
little depressing. Is the end of RTTW 2 years or three years since Horn left 
Lizard? Are Sinew's sons so "old" because Green has a shorter year or 
because the Narrator arrives at a different time?

It seems that he can from the the grandmother's story in IGJ where she sees 
the wizard whose bird says "Beware". She names one of her sons "Incanto" 
after that wizard and the Narrator is given that name...which is who he is 
all the time. Another Wolfean cycle where a thing is ostensibly named after 
something else which is its true identity. If the Narrator was at that 
grave, he must have gone there because he heard the grandmother's story. 
Also, remember when Silk sees "Pike's ghost" at the manteon? Did you note 
that he disappeared not like a gothic ghost but like someone "spirit 
traveling"? That would also explain how Silk saw Oreb fly out of his bedroom 
window and disappear when Oreb could not fly at that time.

But for the Narrator to be able to travel in time as well as in space it 
only complicates the timeline. It doesn't explain the discrepancy in Horn 
and Hide's account of how long Horn has been gone.

>Why is Seawrack missing a limb.  At one point, I thought Babbie had bitten 
>it off, resulting in some kind of psyche transference, but I'm not so sure 
>of this now.

I don't see any reason to doubt that she tried to come aboard the ship at 
night and Babbie attacked her. Why do you doubt it?

>Does Seawrack's ability to trigger uncontrollable rutting behavior have any 
>thing to do with inter-species breeding experiments?

Well, the Narrator refers to her as "bait" so Mother is certainly trying to 
lure Horn for some purpose.

> What is the encrusted thing that climbs aboard Horn's boat?

Are you talking about the leatherskin?

>I thought the broken dome on the island had most likely been a greenhouse 
>for genetic experiments.  Possibly human/plant hybrids resulting in the 
>Neighbors.  --The Neighbors would then be humans transformed to meet new 
>environmental stresses.  Why then, would similar domes be at the bottom of 
>the sea, as Seawrack mentions?

Do you have a quote for this?

>compare the result with the result of Inhumi infused with Neighbor blood, 
>where are the Neighbor/Inhumi?
>Why does Horn's son see a Neighbor sitting on a "tree branch" when he looks 
>through Horn's ring?

It seems clear to me that the Neighbors *are* the trees somehow. They are 
dryads. That's why when the Narrator meets with the Neighbors in the scene 
where they give him the deed to Blue, one of them is lying down. he in a 
fallen tree.

>I think much of this fits together as a breeding or hybridization program. 
>The three races (Neighbors, Humans and Inhumi) are brought together to 
>create hybrids that are desirable somehow to someone.  This is 
>accomplished, in part by bringing the colonists from the Whorl to Blue and 
>Green.  The Whorl is to be sent away with a cargo of pure human stock, 
>presumably with the idea to repeat the hybridization in another 600 years 
>or so.  Possibly this is why the Neighbors have 'gone away' --to preserve 
>remaining pure stock for future hybridization.
>Is one of the three races the method of hybridization, rather than a base 
>stock?  Possibly the Inhumi?

Hmm...you should check out Marc Aramini's Short Sun theory:
http://www.urth.org/whorlmap/chras-writers/default.htm

>Have the Neighbors really gone anywhere if you can find one just by peeping 
>through one of their rings?  What is that damn ring anyway?  It seemed like 
>Horn left it on Green when he was placed into Silk's body.  Then he got a 
>different ring that seem to turn, over time into the original ring.

I think they have a dual nature with the trees and vines...or is it the 
Inhumi that have a dual nature with the vines? They can go away in a sense 
and still be present in a sense, but I don't see that Wolfe has explained 
how.

>If the gods have hidden in animals, is Echidna in Babbie?

Where do you see that? I think it is obvious that the person in Babbie (at 
least near the end of RTTW) is Silk. But how that is I cannot say at this 
time.

>Is someone in Oreb? Is Oreb even the original Oreb? Could Scylla be in Oreb 
>for some reason?

Yes. It is Scylla, the daughter of Pas. Isn't that obvious?

 >I'm not sure why I think this last, I seem to remember
>some connection between the two, possibly from the Long Sun Books.

I'm curious what that would be. Do tell.

>A lot of what happened around Lake Limna seemed fishy to me.

hee hee

>Anything about the ocean-dwelling giants confuses me.I still don't quite 
>get it about Abaia and whatnot.  Was he just an alien who was scheming to 
>take over Urth?  Where does the Mother (in Blue's ocean) fit into the 
>picture?  She seems to be less malign than Abaia and his wives.

In suggesting a connection between Mother and the aliens of Urth, you have 
inadvertantly stumbled in to a contentious debate regarding the connection 
between Urth's solar system and that of Blue and Green. Before we go any 
further, I'd like to know why you draw the connection between Mother and 
Abia. (I think the story draws a blatant connection between Mother and the 
Urth tyrant Scylla whom Typhon's daughter conspired with against her 
father).

>I wonder if Mucor is able to assist with the transference of the psyches 
>others--kind of like a human Sacred Window.  If she could appear to the 
>blind Pig, she may have offered to release the trapped PasSilk.

PasSilk? I believe the god in Pig was Silver Silk. The fact that Pig sees 
Mucur seems to suggest that she does not actually travel through space but 
imprints her image on the minds of those to whom she appears.

> She may also have been removing some rider from Babbie when Horn returned 
> to Maytera's island with her eye.  ...either Echidna, some part of 
> Echidna, or even part of herself...a sort of recording mechanism by which 
> Mucor could plant part of herself, then retrieve it later and access its 
> memory.

Again...why Echidna?

>though--lots of slogging through barely related material.

Very little in "The Short Sun" has been answered to my satisfaction. Thanks 
for starting the thread.
:-)

~ Crush