{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4415", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4415, "subject": "Jonas", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2005-04-27T17:33:53+00:00", "last": "2005-05-06T15:43:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-04-27T17:33:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas bother me on several levels.\nFirst, there is his name: obviously a straight take off of the\nBiblical one right down to the spelling, and there is a commonality of\nlivelihood. But, I cannot see what Jonas' whale is. Could it be\nUrth, when he and his fellow sailors crashed? But that is not\nsatisfactory.\nSecond, Jonas, AFAIK, is, from Apprentice Sev's time frame, from the\ndeep past, who has only now returned, many years later, thanks to time\ndilation. But, consider: the only ship we know of, and are given\nstrong reasons to believe is in fact the *only* 'ship', is Tzadkiels\nin TUOTNS. All right you say, what of it? Well, first Sev doesn't see\nJonas on Tzadkiel's ship, which is fairly suspicious- if such an\nunlikely thing as Gunny meeting her younger self could happen, how\nmuch more likely should it be that Sev meet Jonas again, when the\nconnections betwixt them are so strong and old? It would work\nperfectly from a novelists perspective, since Jonas could easily be\nsearching for Jolenta again, or seeking a return to the past.\nThe problem here is that we know that Jonas couldn't have been on the\nTzadkiel, since his ship disastrously crashed when there were no\nfacilities to receive them, and the Tzadkiel never crashed. And it\ncould not have been one of the minor tenders and in-system vessels,\nsince those could never acheive the relativistic time warping effects\nthat plunged Jonas far into his future.\nThirdly, his accent and mannerisms. He certainly seems to speak as a\nsailor, with the mini-parables, and such. But Jonas was mechanical,\nbut not like Sidero remember. Sidero was a hollow man, and Jonas was\nnot. As well, Sev says that Jonas entire demeanour spoke to him of a\n'time when they lived in fear, and sought to alleviate it through\nconstant joking' (sorry for the paraphrase; can't even remember what\nbook it is in.) The sailors on the Tzadkiel certainly don't live in\nconstant fear.\n\nSo, we have a dude whose is from the past, shouldn't have been able to\nget into the future, who mimics sailors, but is not one, and\nmysteriously disapears to who-knows-where - the mirrors of Inire\ncoulda taken him clear to Briah or even more inscrutable times/places\n(remember too that in this relativistic framework, time is space is\ntime. Mirrors which serve to catapult/shanghai one through space can\nalso do thus through time), and never shows up again, despite being so\nimportant.\nAs I said, Jonas bothers me.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4270682B.8060709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-04-27T21:37:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maru Dubshinki wrote:\nJonas bother me on several levels.\nFirst, there is his name: obviously a straight take off of the\nBiblical one right down to the spelling, and there is a commonality of\nlivelihood. But, I cannot see what Jonas' whale is. Could it be\nUrth, when he and his fellow sailors crashed? But that is not\nsatisfactory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The biblical Jonah not necessarily a sailor, on his flight from Ninevah \nthe LJV has him paying a fare, not joining a crew. In light of his \nestablished position and relations to other area personages, he probably \nhas a relatively stationary profession like rabbi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, Jonas, AFAIK, is, from Apprentice Sev's time frame, from the\ndeep past, who has only now returned, many years later, thanks to time\ndilation. But, consider: the only ship we know of, and are given\nstrong reasons to believe is in fact the *only* 'ship', is Tzadkiels\nin TUOTNS. All right you say, what of it? Well, first Sev doesn't see\nJonas on Tzadkiel's ship, which is fairly suspicious- if such an\nunlikely thing as Gunny meeting her younger self could happen, how\nmuch more likely should it be that Sev meet Jonas again, when the\nconnections betwixt them are so strong and old? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a big, big ship, and while it can travel through time, not all \njourneys through time have to be the same journey through time. Gunny \nand Burgondofara are likely to meet because Gunny remembers being the \nplaces Burgondofara is likely to go, they probaly have the same bunking \npreferences, etc. How many other \"people\" are likely on the ship that \nSeverian doesn't meet? We only see one Sidero for instance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would work\nperfectly from a novelists perspective, since Jonas could easily be\nsearching for Jolenta again, or seeking a return to the past.\nThe problem here is that we know that Jonas couldn't have been on the\nTzadkiel, since his ship disastrously crashed when there were no\nfacilities to receive them, and the Tzadkiel never crashed. And it\ncould not have been one of the minor tenders and in-system vessels,\nsince those could never acheive the relativistic time warping effects\nthat plunged Jonas far into his future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel is not the only craft that traveles between Urth and Yesod; the \nsaucer that visits Baldanders' keep is at least one other. There's also \nthe portals that lead from the machine planet back into Briah, possibly \nJonas and some other trial eidolons escaped through one.\n\nBut even if it was Tzadkiel, Tzadkiel is plenty big to carry an \norbit-to-ground craft, it may have some escape pods, etc. and Jonas \ncould have been on the losing side of a jibber battle and forced to bail \nout in an something that depended on later technology to work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thirdly, his accent and mannerisms. He certainly seems to speak as a\nsailor, with the mini-parables, and such. But Jonas was mechanical,\nbut not like Sidero remember. Sidero was a hollow man, and Jonas was\nnot. As well, Sev says that Jonas entire demeanour spoke to him of a\n'time when they lived in fear, and sought to alleviate it through\nconstant joking' (sorry for the paraphrase; can't even remember what\nbook it is in.) The sailors on the Tzadkiel certainly don't live in\nconstant fear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Jibbers and apports might, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, we have a dude whose is from the past, shouldn't have been able to\nget into the future, who mimics sailors, but is not one, and\nmysteriously disapears to who-knows-where - the mirrors of Inire\ncoulda taken him clear to Briah or even more inscrutable times/places\n(remember too that in this relativistic framework, time is space is\ntime. Mirrors which serve to catapult/shanghai one through space can\nalso do thus through time), and never shows up again, despite being so\nimportant.\nAs I said, Jonas bothers me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not _just_ relativistic travel, that wouldn't the mirror trick. \nThere's at least cyclical time and higher dimensions involved, and the \nmagic mirrors are only incidentally mirrored, otherwise there'd be \napports, monsters, and hiergrammates in every tailor's shop." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200504280808.j3S88Qc8027661@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-04-28T01:08:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas", "in_reply_to": "<4270682B.8060709@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor mentions the name of his ship (can't remember what it was), \nand Jonas says that his ship was called \"The Fortunate Cloud\", as \nfar as I recall. The idea that there is just one ship only comes up \nin UOTNS, and IMO it's a new idea Wolfe had for UOTNS, not part of \nthe earlier volumes. Or maybe this just refers to the Yesod run - \nie it's the only ship to cross between universes.\n\nJonas is indeed not like Sidero, but remember that Sev also sees \nrobots on the Ship who he thinks are more like Jonas would once \nhave been." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c55109$f0b20040$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-05-04T17:32:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maru said:\nJonas bother me on several levels.\nFirst, there is his name: obviously a straight take off of the\nBiblical one right down to the spelling, and there is a commonality of\nlivelihood. But, I cannot see what Jonas' whale is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be the human body that he took on.\n\nOr he could be named for St. Jonas. He was a 4th century monk who spent 85 \nyears in a desert hermitage. That sounds a bit like our marooned Jonas.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8C720A41C957BCA-360-175F3@mblk-d47.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "stoneox17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2005-05-06T15:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jonas", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c55109$f0b20040$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " James Wynn (Crush) said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maru said:\nJonas bother me on several levels.\nFirst, there is his name: obviously a straight take off of the\nBiblical one right down to the spelling, and there is a commonality \nof\nlivelihood. But, I cannot see what Jonas' whale is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It could be the human body that he took on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or he could be named for St. Jonas. He was a 4th century monk who \nspent\n85 years in a desert hermitage. That sounds a bit like our marooned \nJonas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But of course there's a whale. On page 125 of Shadow and Claw\nSeverian tells Agia the story of Domnina and Father Inire's mirrors,\nwhich he originally heard from Thecla. In the mirrors, Domnina sees\nthe reflection of a Fish, which Inire tells her would eventually \nsolidify\nand manifest itself. Later, Jonas disappears into the same mirrors.\nHis actual encounter with the Fish is left to our imagination.\n\nAnd my impression (which I don't see confirmed in the text in a quick\nglance through it) was that this Fish doesn't swim through water but\nspace.\n\n-- Stone Ox (Peter)" } ] } ] }