{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4434", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4434, "subject": "urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2005-06-03T12:04:18+00:00", "last": "2005-06-03T12:04:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050603190413.96E6F3947@sitemail.everyone.net>", "from": { "name": "turin", "address": "turin at hell.com" }, "date": "2005-06-03T12:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Lovecraft's \"At the Mountains of Madness\", those flying interstellar starfish with axial symmetry (Elder Gods?) who live in Antartica are similar to Erebus (the glacial equivalent to Abaia)only that he lives somewhere near the North Pole like a diabolic Santa Claus. But he does control armies which he is hurling at the Commonwealth, so is not humanity already at war with with these monsters? I am sure Erebus does his own thing and probably doesn't invite Abaia over for coffee and cake, but an evil superintelligence is an evil superintelligence after all, and if they are out to get you they are out to get you. Other than that, I don't see any profound affect on Wolfe by Lovecraft but I have not done a very close or thorough reading of Lovecraft so I could very well be wrong.\n\nEOT;\n\n\n--- urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net wrote:\n\nFrom: urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT)\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nSubject: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3\n\nSend urth-urth.net mailing list submissions to\n\turth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n\thttp://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n\turth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n\turth-urth.net-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of urth-urth.net digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. cthulhu mythos, BotNS (don doggett)\n 2. SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (nastler)\n 3. SV: Re: (urth) \"There Are Doors\" Comes To Japan (nastler)\n 4. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson)\n 5. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (pthwndxrclzp)\n 6. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson)\n 7. powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS)\n (David DiGiacomo)\n 8. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Chris)\n 9. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (James Wynn)\n 10. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Maru Dubshinki)\n 11. Re: powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos,\n BotNS) (Maru Dubshinki)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: don doggett \nSubject: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: urth \nMessage-ID: <20050602213656.36325.qmail at web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\nI googled to see if this had been touched on in the\narchives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me if\nI'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of\nreading a collection of short stories by August\nDerleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories are\nquite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps\nDerleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater\ninfluence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and\nthe rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The\nvery fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as\nDerleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) against\nthe Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in\nOrion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to\nthe best of my knowledge. There is also mention of\nsome of these creatures living forward in time and\nplenty of references to something thundering in places\nbeneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of\nsaltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have\nnoticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of\nforbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading of\npassages from the Necronomicon or the other evil texts\nfrom these stories is often enough to set a character\non the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about\nSeverian's possession of the Lives of the 17\nMegatherians (isn't that one of the books in his\nsabertache?) and where his loyalties lie.\n\nDon\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around \nhttp://mail.yahoo.com \n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:46:37 +0200 (CEST)\nFrom: nastler \nSubject: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <20050603074637.46661.qmail at web54208.mail.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\nSmall point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the\nsabertache, it stays in the library. The \"corrupting\"\ninfluence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla,\nwho is a good bet for having read 17 Megs...\n\nI'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old\nOnes / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced\nbefore, not chewed to the marrow the way things are\nusually done on this list.... :-)\n\nnastler\n\n\n--- don doggett skrev:\n\nI googled to see if this had been touched on in the\narchives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me\nif\nI'm going over old ground. I'm in the process of\nreading a collection of short stories by August\nDerleth, set in Lovecraft's universe. The stories\nare\nquite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps\nDerleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater\ninfluence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and\nthe rest and their conflict with the Hiero's. The\nvery fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as\nDerleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc)\nagainst\nthe Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in\nOrion. There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to\nthe best of my knowledge. There is also mention of\nsome of these creatures living forward in time and\nplenty of references to something thundering in\nplaces\nbeneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of\nsaltus is uncanny). Another persistent theme I have\nnoticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of\nforbidden knowledge to corrupt. The simple reading\nof\npassages from the Necronomicon or the other evil\ntexts\nfrom these stories is often enough to set a\ncharacter\non the path to his doom. This makes me wonder about\nSeverian's possession of the Lives of the 17\nMegatherians (isn't that one of the books in his\nsabertache?) and where his loyalties lie.\n\nDon\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam\nprotection around \nhttp://mail.yahoo.com \n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:46 +0200 (CEST)\nFrom: nastler \nSubject: SV: Re: (urth) \"There Are Doors\" Comes To Japan\nTo: James Wynn ,\tThe Urth Mailing List\n\t\nMessage-ID: <20050603075346.28346.qmail at web54204.mail.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\nOr Hethor...\n\n--- James Wynn skrev:\n\nJust a general obsession with dolls...treating them\nlike people ala the \nconcern that chaining them would be cruel. My first\nthought when I read the \narticle was TAD.\n (shrug)\n\n----- Original Message ----- \nFrom: \"Maru Dubshinki\" \nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\"\n\nSent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:56 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"There Are Doors\" Comes To Japan\n\n\n\nI'm afraid I plumb missed the 'There are doors'\nconnection- I don't\nsee how it ties in. Explanation please?\n\n~Maru\n\nOn 5/23/05, James Wynn \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Japanese man gets jail time for 'kidnapping' dolls\n\nMay 23, 6:12 AM (ET)\n\nTOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese man has been\nsentenced to five-and-a-half \nyears\nin jail for snatching mannequins used by a cake\nshop chain to tout its\nwares.\n\"Peko-chan,\" a round-eyed doll around the size of\na six-year-old, has been\nused by Fujiya Co. Ltd. to sell sweets for five\ndecades and her grinning\ncountenance is a familiar sight in front of shops\naround Japan.\n\nRecently, however, she has become a favorite of\ncollectors, leading to a\nrash of \"Peko-chan\" snatchings.\n\nTakeishi Shibuya, 31, was convicted of stealing 15\nof the large dolls,\nvalued at about 1.1 million yen ($10,170), a court\nofficial in Yamagata\nprefecture, northern Japan, said on Monday.\n\nIn several cases, Shibuya used pepper spray and\nspray paint to fend off\nstore employees, leading prosecutors to demand a\nsentence of nine years in\nprison.\n\n\"But he has reflected on his crimes and feels bad\nabout what he did, so \nthe\nsentence was lighter as a result,\" the official\nsaid.\n\nAfter a wave of \"Peko-chan\" disappearances last\nyear, the company \nsuggested\nchaining the dolls down, but customers complained\nthat this would be \ncruel.\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:49:59 +0100\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nnastler writes: \n\nSmall point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the\nsabertache, it stays in the library. The \"corrupting\"\ninfluence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla,\nwho is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... \n\nI'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old\nOnes / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced\nbefore, not chewed to the marrow the way things are\nusually done on this list.... :-) \n\nnastler\n\nI honestly don't think there is much direct reference. \n\nHowever, Lovecraft's \"Old Ones\" were really non-supernatural alien entities \nof such power that they could not be distinguished from gods, from the human \nperspective. \n\nIt's arguable that he was the first really influential writer to do this - \nto address the idea of gods, from a rigorously non-supernatural perspective. \n\nWolfe has many non-omnipotent \"gods\" of this type: Erebus and Abia are \ngodlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing \nreally supernatural about them. \n\n\n.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:27:42 -0700\nFrom: pthwndxrclzp \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <2124d6b1050603092713cffcd1 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nWhat exactly are Erebus and Abaia's \"powers\"? Despite lots of scary\nintimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really\nhave much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind\nof low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants \"swim\"\nthrough time upon occasion). Or am I missing something?\n\nWolfe has many non-omnipotent \"gods\" of this type: Erebus and Abia are\ngodlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing\nreally supernatural about them.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:36:43 +0100\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson\" \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: pthwndxrclzp ,\tThe Urth Mailing List\n\t\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\npthwndxrclzp writes: \n\nWhat exactly are Erebus and Abaia's \"powers\"? Despite lots of scary\nintimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really\nhave much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind\nof low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants \"swim\"\nthrough time upon occasion). Or am I missing something?\n\nMuch like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they \ncontrol dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But \nmore to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their \nenslaved human servants. \n\nThey are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to \nchappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth.\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: david at slack.com (David DiGiacomo)\nSubject: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos,\n\tBotNS)\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <10506031643.AA01346 at slack.com>\n\nWhat exactly are Erebus and Abaia's \"powers\"?\n\nThey resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be\nimmortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian\nshares them.\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:29:45 +0000\nFrom: \"Chris\" \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed\n\nI take that \"rise in the last days to take the world\" bit with a grain of \nsalt; it seems more like a bit of standard mythology crusted on to whatever \nthe original story was. The big bad nasties *always* rise in the last days \nto contend for dominion over the world. And any self-respecting \nbig-bad-nasty will make sure everyone fears that, one of these days, it will \nbe back...\n\nAndy said:\nMuch like Cthulhu's. They have half-human submarine servitors; they \ncontrol dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world. But \nmore to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their \nenslaved human servants.\n\nThey are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to \nchappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 9\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:28:57 -0500\nFrom: \"James Wynn\" \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: <003001c5686a$5db87940$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>\nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=\"iso-8859-1\";\n\treply-type=response\n\n\nI honestly don't think there is much direct reference.\n\nMaybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on \nLovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for \n\"Skai\" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of \nUlthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT.\n\n~ Crush\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 10\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:47:01 -0400\nFrom: Maru Dubshinki \nSubject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS\nTo: James Wynn ,\tThe Urth Mailing List\n\t\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nOn 6/3/05, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I honestly don't think there is much direct reference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on\nLovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for\n\"Skai\" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of\nUlthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT.\n\n~ Crush\n\nI take it that that reference for Skai is drawn for a Lovecraft story?\n\n~Maru\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 11\nDate: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:30 -0400\nFrom: Maru Dubshinki \nSubject: Re: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu\n\tmythos, BotNS)\nTo: david at slack.com,\tThe Urth Mailing List\n\t\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nOn 6/3/05, David DiGiacomo wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's \"powers\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be\nimmortal. Those are pretty good powers! It's interesting that Severian\nshares them.\n\npace Frazer, much magic is 'contagious'.\n\nBut I think the 'shared' powers are more likely from the New Sun-\nthat's just what UotNS seemed to me to be about.\n\n~Maru\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] } ] }