Subject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3

From: turin <turin at hell.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:04:18 +0000

In Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness", those flying interstellar starfish with axial symmetry (Elder Gods?) who live in Antartica are similar to Erebus (the glacial equivalent to Abaia)only that he lives somewhere near the North Pole like a diabolic Santa Claus. But he does control armies which he is hurling at the Commonwealth, so is not humanity already at war with with these monsters? I am sure Erebus does his own thing and probably doesn't invite Abaia over for coffee and cake, but an evil superintelligence is an evil superintelligence after all, and if they are out to get you they are out to get you. Other than that, I don't see any profound affect on Wolfe by Lovecraft but I have not done a very close or thorough reading of Lovecraft so I could very well be wrong.

EOT;

--- urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net wrote:

From: urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net
Date: Fri,  3 Jun 2005 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT)
To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net
Subject: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

   1.  cthulhu mythos, BotNS (don doggett)
   2. SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (nastler)
   3. SV: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan (nastler)
   4. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson)
   5. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (pthwndxrclzp)
   6. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Andy Robertson)
   7.  powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos, BotNS)
      (David DiGiacomo)
   8. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Chris)
   9. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (James Wynn)
  10. Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS (Maru Dubshinki)
  11. Re:  powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos,
      BotNS) (Maru Dubshinki)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com>
Subject: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: urth <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <20050602213656.36325.qmail at web32402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I googled to see if this had been touched on in the
archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me if
I'm going over old ground.  I'm in the process of
reading a collection of short stories by August
Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe.  The stories are
quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps
Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater
influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and
the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's.  The
very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as
Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc) against
the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in
Orion.  There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to
the best of my knowledge.  There is also mention of
some of these creatures living forward in time and
plenty of references to something thundering in places
beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of
saltus is uncanny).  Another persistent theme I have
noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of
forbidden knowledge to corrupt.  The simple reading of
passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil texts
from these stories is often enough to set a character
on the path to his doom.  This makes me wonder about
Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17
Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his
sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie.

Don

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:46:37 +0200 (CEST)
From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk>
Subject: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <20050603074637.46661.qmail at web54208.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the
sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting"
influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla,
who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs...

I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old
Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced
before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are
usually done on this list....  :-)

nastler

--- don doggett <kingwukong at yahoo.com> skrev:

> I googled to see if this had been touched on in the
> archives and I didn't find anything, but forgive me
> if
> I'm going over old ground.  I'm in the process of
> reading a collection of short stories by August
> Derleth, set in Lovecraft's universe.  The stories
> are
> quite good so far, and it seems to me that perhaps
> Derleth, rather than Lovecraft, was a greater
> influence on Wolfe regarding the nature of Abaia and
> the rest and their conflict with the Hiero's.  The
> very fact of a conflict seems to bear this out as
> Derleth sets the Great Old Ones (Cthulhu etc)
> against
> the Elder Gods who, interestingly enough, reside in
> Orion.  There is no such dichotomy in Lovecraft, to
> the best of my knowledge.  There is also mention of
> some of these creatures living forward in time and
> plenty of references to something thundering in
> places
> beneath the earth (the resemblance to the mines of
> saltus is uncanny).  Another persistent theme I have
> noticed in Derleth's stories is the ability of
> forbidden knowledge to corrupt.  The simple reading
> of
> passages from the Necronomicon or the other evil
> texts
> from these stories is often enough to set a
> character
> on the path to his doom.  This makes me wonder about
> Severian's possession of the Lives of the 17
> Megatherians (isn't that one of the books in his
> sabertache?) and where his loyalties lie.
> 
> Don
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
> 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:53:46 +0200 (CEST)
From: nastler <nastler at yahoo.dk>
Subject: SV: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan
To: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>,	The Urth Mailing List
	<urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <20050603075346.28346.qmail at web54204.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Or Hethor...

--- James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> skrev:

> Just a general obsession with dolls...treating them
> like people ala the 
> concern that chaining them would be cruel. My first
> thought when I read the 
> article was TAD.
>  (shrug)
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Maru Dubshinki" <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
> To: "The Urth Mailing List"
> <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) "There Are Doors" Comes To Japan
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid I plumb missed the 'There are doors'
> connection- I don't
> see how it ties in. Explanation please?
> 
> ~Maru
> 
> On 5/23/05, James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > Japanese man gets jail time for 'kidnapping' dolls
> >
> > May 23, 6:12 AM (ET)
> >
> > TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese man has been
> sentenced to five-and-a-half 
> > years
> > in jail for snatching mannequins used by a cake
> shop chain to tout its
> > wares.
> > "Peko-chan," a round-eyed doll around the size of
> a six-year-old, has been
> > used by Fujiya Co. Ltd. to sell sweets for five
> decades and her grinning
> > countenance is a familiar sight in front of shops
> around Japan.
> >
> > Recently, however, she has become a favorite of
> collectors, leading to a
> > rash of "Peko-chan" snatchings.
> >
> > Takeishi Shibuya, 31, was convicted of stealing 15
> of the large dolls,
> > valued at about 1.1 million yen ($10,170), a court
> official in Yamagata
> > prefecture, northern Japan, said on Monday.
> >
> > In several cases, Shibuya used pepper spray and
> spray paint to fend off
> > store employees, leading prosecutors to demand a
> sentence of nine years in
> > prison.
> >
> > "But he has reflected on his crimes and feels bad
> about what he did, so 
> > the
> > sentence was lighter as a result," the official
> said.
> >
> > After a wave of "Peko-chan" disappearances last
> year, the company 
> > suggested
> > chaining the dolls down, but customers complained
> that this would be 
> > cruel.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Urth Mailing List
> > To post, write urth at urth.net
> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
> 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:49:59 +0100
From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <E1DeBcd-0007VC-GI at oceanus.uk.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"

nastler writes: 

> Small point; The book 17 Megatherians dosn't go in the
> sabertache, it stays in the library. The "corrupting"
> influence on Sev probably comes to him through Thecla,
> who is a good bet for having read 17 Megs... 
> 
> I'd like to hear more discussion about the Great Old
> Ones / Elder Gods. I think it's only been referenced
> before, not chewed to the marrow the way things are
> usually done on this list....  :-) 
> 
> nastler

I honestly don't think there is much direct reference. 

However, Lovecraft's "Old Ones" were really non-supernatural alien entities 
of such power that they could not be distinguished from gods, from the human 
perspective. 

It's arguable that he was the first really influential writer to do this - 
to address the idea of gods, from a rigorously non-supernatural perspective. 

Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are 
godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing 
really supernatural about them. 

.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:27:42 -0700
From: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <2124d6b1050603092713cffcd1 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary
intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really
have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind
of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim"
through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something?

> Wolfe has many non-omnipotent "gods" of this type: Erebus and Abia are
> godlike in their power as far as humans are concerned, but there is nothing
> really supernatural about them.

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:36:43 +0100
From: "Andy Robertson" <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: pthwndxrclzp <aquastor at gmail.com>,	The Urth Mailing List
	<urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <E1DeFA3-0004Bt-Ay at oceanus.uk.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"

pthwndxrclzp writes: 

> What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"? Despite lots of scary
> intimations and background threats, it doesn't seem as if we really
> have much information on what such creatures can do, beyond some kind
> of low-level mind control (and perhaps having their lieutenants "swim"
> through time upon occasion). Or am I missing something?

Much like Cthulhu's.   They have half-human submarine servitors; they 
control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world.   But 
more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their 
enslaved human servants. 

They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to 
chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth.

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: david at slack.com (David DiGiacomo)
Subject: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu mythos,
	BotNS)
To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net
Message-ID: <10506031643.AA01346 at slack.com>

> What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"?

They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be
immortal.  Those are pretty good powers!  It's interesting that Severian
shares them.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:29:45 +0000
From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net
Message-ID: <BAY102-F12B4595764CACBB9EC932386070 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I take that "rise in the last days to take the world" bit with a grain of 
salt; it seems more like a bit of standard mythology crusted on to whatever 
the original story was. The big bad nasties *always* rise in the last days 
to contend for dominion over the world. And any self-respecting 
big-bad-nasty will make sure everyone fears that, one of these days, it will 
be back...

Andy said:
>Much like Cthulhu's.   They have half-human submarine servitors; they 
>control dreams; they will rise in the last days to take the world.   But 
>more to the point they control much of the Urth's surface through their 
>enslaved human servants.
>
>They are not exactly GOO's but then Cthulhu was small beans compared to 
>chappies like YogSothoth or Azathoth.

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:28:57 -0500
From: "James Wynn" <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <003001c5686a$5db87940$60a3f63f@wynnhouse>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

>I honestly don't think there is much direct reference.

Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on 
Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for 
"Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of 
Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT.

~ Crush

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:47:01 -0400
From: Maru Dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: SV: (urth) cthulhu mythos, BotNS
To: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>,	The Urth Mailing List
	<urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <f5238c305060311474bea3e47 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 6/3/05, James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >I honestly don't think there is much direct reference.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. But there is some evidence that Wolfe wet his whistle on
> Lovecraft for THE WIZARD KNIGHT. The only literary reference I know of for
> "Skai" is the farmland-belted River SKAI beyond which lies the city of
> Ulthar where it is illegal to kill a CAT.
> 
> ~ Crush

I take it that that reference for Skai is drawn for a Lovecraft story?

~Maru

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:48:30 -0400
From: Maru Dubshinki <marudubshinki at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) powers of Erebus and Abaia (was Re: cthulhu
	mythos, BotNS)
To: david at slack.com,	The Urth Mailing List
	<urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
Message-ID: <f5238c30506031148366ca8ed at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 6/3/05, David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com> wrote:
> > What exactly are Erebus and Abaia's "powers"?
> 
> They resurrect Severian when he drowns in the Gyoll, and they seem to be
> immortal.  Those are pretty good powers!  It's interesting that Severian
> shares them.

pace Frazer, much magic is 'contagious'.

But I think the 'shared' powers are more likely from the New Sun-
that's just what UotNS seemed to me to be about.

~Maru

------------------------------

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