{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4444", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4444, "subject": "gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-06-12T16:14:55+00:00", "last": "2005-06-19T00:38:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050612231450.CCB3837DB2@sitemail.everyone.net>", "from": { "name": "turin", "address": "turin at hell.com" }, "date": "2005-06-12T16:14:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i have discussed several months ago the ambience and aesthetic similarties \ni think exist between tolkien and wolfe's work and cyberpunk.\n\nbut something occured to me about genre conventions today. i was thinking about a protest in new york that i saw several years and remembered the riot gear of the police, and that got me to thinking about the recent ghost in the shell television series and the popularity of \"cop drams\" and the reasons why we enjoy detective stories and crime stories especiallytough and heroic cops or detectives.. who sometimes have a philosophical side and always are more vulnerable and mechancholy than they let on. (which is a role severian often plays)\n\n one of our first reality television shows in a contemporary sense besides things like game shows, talk shows, and the news (i'll stand by the claim that the news is reality tv) was of course \"cops\".\n\nin william gibson's bridge trilogy, rydell, is a policeman and then a security guard, and is a candidate for the reality tv show \"cops in trouble.\" this is more of a joke than anything, and not very central to the story. but gibson is enamoured with mystery and crime noire. his last book \"pattern recognition\" was i think not even crime noire but an actual mystery.\n\nwhile wolfe is definitely not cop drama, his work is as we have said a kind of detective story and that is only a short step away from crime noire which permeates cyberpunk.\n\narguably the first cyberpunk novel, do androids dream of electric sheep is a detective story and crime noire, and the ridley scott's film blade runner had such an effect on japan that a subgenre of scifi anime has always been cyberpunk whether as adventure or mystery.\n\nin the case of the ghost in the shell films and recently the television series, we actually do have not only a mystery but also crime noire, cop drama, and a detective story with the theme machine transcendance if not divine transcendace (though in the as i have said oshi mamoru was trained as a catholic priest). \n\ni find it very interesting that oshi has unlike gibson has put together a more identical set of motifs to wolfe's and yet produced something so different, though they seem to address many of the same things. \n\ni guess what i am claiming, is that besides the bildungsroman or the \"heroic quest\" (i think campbell is very shallow) or spiritual meditation (i won't say allegory), a good chunk of wolfe actually is cyberpunk....\n\ni am afraid my memory is going bad but someone just said that after reading (there are doors? which i have not read) that it was the best philip k. dick book not written by philip k. dick.\n\nthat is the point i am trying to make exactly. if cyberpunk isn't looking at wolfe (and it might be though i have no evidence or thought about it much) it is looking to dick and i have not read enough dick, but i think, in his position, wolfe cannot looking at dick.\n\nin any case, wolfe is to some degree a cyberpunk author or cyberpunk is, if any genre can cliam to be, in the same tradition as wolfe.\n\nEOT;" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050613041922.97819.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "thapaguru", "address": "thapaguru at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-12T21:19:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<20050612231450.CCB3837DB2@sitemail.everyone.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt Wolfe is cyberpunk. CP mainly deals with a\nnear future or alternate reality where technology has\ncreated a bizarre society or people. His main works\nare either set so far in the future that the trappings\nof modern society no longer exists (BoNS,LS,SS), or in\nthe distant and mythological past (TWK, Latro). There\nAre Doors is somewhat in the present, but it's purely\na Philip K. Dick writing excercise, and it's more of\nan alternate universe than cyber-related.\n\nOshii isn't of a Christian or American/European\nbackground. I bet his stuff would mean much more to a\nperson familiar with Japanese\nculture/traditions/beliefs. I believe your take on\nWolfe to be another ode to the man's aptitude at\ncreating a flexible framework for us to bring\nexperiences and thoughts to.\n\nThapa\n\n\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42AE62E4.2000106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-06-13T21:54:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<20050613041922.97819.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thapaguru wrote:\nI doubt Wolfe is cyberpunk. CP mainly deals with a\nnear future or alternate reality where technology has\ncreated a bizarre society or people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention where crime and drug use is so prominent, even among the \n\"heroes\" of the story....oh wait, have you read \"The Fifth Head of \nCerberus?\" :)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050616090253.04231eb0@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T08:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<42AE62E4.2000106@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:10 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:\narguably the first cyberpunk novel, do androids dream of electric sheep is \na detective story and crime noire, and the ridley scott's film blade \nrunner had such an effect on japan that a subgenre of scifi anime has \nalways been cyberpunk whether as adventure or mystery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I think the art direction of David Snyder and his dark depiction of the \nfuture probably had more of an impact on anime than did Scott's ponderous \nhollywoodization of DADoES. Certainly GitS was influenced by Blade Runner's \ntheme. I'm looking forward to watching Stand Alone Complex, as soon as AS \nwill reair the first four episodes so I can see it in order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "i am afraid my memory is going bad but someone just said that after \nreading (there are doors? which i have not read) that it was the best \nphilip k. dick book not written by philip k. dick.\n\nthat is the point i am trying to make exactly. if cyberpunk isn't looking \nat wolfe (and it might be though i have no evidence or thought about it \nmuch) it is looking to dick and i have not read enough dick, but i think, \nin his position, wolfe cannot looking at dick." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure I understand, but I recall reading in one of the interviews with \nGene that he had read (and I believe liked) PKD. In fact, I'm currently \nreading Free Live Free and there also seems to be somewhat of a PKD flavor, \nbut not as obvious as in There are Doors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in any case, wolfe is to some degree a cyberpunk author or cyberpunk is, \nif any genre can cliam to be, in the same tradition as wolfe.\n\nEOT;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree to the degree that it's a testament to Wolfe's ability to stretch \nhis craft into other themes and genres. But I wouldn't pigeonhole him as a \ncyberpunk author or see how cyberpunk could claim him as one of their own.\nWhat little I recall of a class on the advent of cyberpunk left the \nimpression that every so often there's some type of backlash in the \nliterary world that spawns anew, reinvents or reintroduces a genre. The \ninstructors maintained that cyberpunk was one of these waves that actually \nhad it's roots in SF and fantasy shorts that appeared in '70's glossies. I \nthink that some of Wolfe's short stories may have a CP bent, such as The \nOther Dead Man or the HORARS of War but I'm not sure I would include them \nin a cyberpunk anthology unless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of \nCyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors who influenced \nthe authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave.\n\nDan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42B23AB7.1020001@pressroom.com>", "from": { "name": "David Kirby", "address": "dbkirby at pressroom.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T19:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050616090253.04231eb0@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan wrote:\nAt 02:10 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "arguably the first cyberpunk novel, do androids dream of electric \nsheep [. . .]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think the art direction of David Snyder and his dark depiction of the \nfuture probably had more of an impact on anime than did Scott's \nponderous hollywoodization of DADoES. Certainly GitS was influenced by \nBlade Runner's theme. I'm looking forward to watching Stand Alone \nComplex, as soon as AS will reair the first four episodes so I can see \nit in order." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, the abbreviation \"DADoES\" is probably familiar enough to SF fans,\neven without my inclusion above of the improbably capitalized \"do\nandroids dream of electric sheep.\"\n\nBut \"GitS\"? \"AS\"? I have no idea what you're talking about here.\n(That statement may pin me as an ol' fogey -- the first time I've\nbeen so pinned -- but I suspect many written SF contributors will\nagree with its sentiment.) These may have been explained earlier\nin the thread, but they aren't explained in this message, and they\nshould have been. One of the advantages of Usenet or mailing lists\nis that a reader or participant doesn't have to know *everything*\nthat has gone before in order to participate. (Most Web-based\ndiscussion forums I've seen don't have or don't encourage a\n[\"here's what I had to say\" --> \"here's what you respond\"] format.)\n\n(Top-posting is also appreciated, if appropriate, although\n\"interleaved\" posting is perfectly accepted when appropriate.\nBottom-posting is not appreciated and indicates, at least to\nme, that you've not read carefully the post you're responding\nto.)\n\nCan we, please, try to be a bit more inclusive in future\nmessages?\n\nThanks,\n\n -- David" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "==============================================================\n\"It is possible I already had some presentiment of my future.\"\n== Gene Wolfe, Shadow of the Torturer\n David B. Kirby, dbkirby at pressroom.com\n==============================================================" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T21:27:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<42B23AB7.1020001@pressroom.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there you go: he has lapsed into anime vocabularly, so don't feel bad.\n\nIn case you were wondering, GitS was discussed earlier- it is \"Ghost\nin the Shell\".\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_shell\n\nAS stands for the popular programming segment Cartoon Network airs\nlate at night, called \"Adult Swim\".\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_Swim\n(The name comes form the fact that at night, the kids aren't watching\nso they can show more mature 'adult' stuff- kinda like a pool. Get it,\nadult swim=... ah never mind.)\n\n~Maru\nOn a very side note, I'm surpised you don't like bottom-posting- every\nforum Usenet or otherwise, has told me to bottom post, and definitely\nnot top- but you seem to prefer top, so I shall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/16/05, David Kirby wrote:\nOkay, the abbreviation \"DADoES\" is probably familiar enough to SF fans,\neven without my inclusion above of the improbably capitalized \"do\nandroids dream of electric sheep.\"\n\nBut \"GitS\"? \"AS\"? I have no idea what you're talking about here.\n(That statement may pin me as an ol' fogey -- the first time I've\nbeen so pinned -- but I suspect many written SF contributors will\nagree with its sentiment.) These may have been explained earlier\nin the thread, but they aren't explained in this message, and they\nshould have been. One of the advantages of Usenet or mailing lists\nis that a reader or participant doesn't have to know *everything*\nthat has gone before in order to participate. (Most Web-based\ndiscussion forums I've seen don't have or don't encourage a\n[\"here's what I had to say\" --> \"here's what you respond\"] format.)\n\n(Top-posting is also appreciated, if appropriate, although\n\"interleaved\" posting is perfectly accepted when appropriate.\nBottom-posting is not appreciated and indicates, at least to\nme, that you've not read carefully the post you're responding\nto.)\n\nCan we, please, try to be a bit more inclusive in future\nmessages?\n\nThanks,\n\n -- David" } ] }, { "message_id": "<42B520F9.4040502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-06-19T00:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk", "in_reply_to": "<42B23AB7.1020001@pressroom.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Kirby wrote:\n(Top-posting is also appreciated, if appropriate, although\n\"interleaved\" posting is perfectly accepted when appropriate.\nBottom-posting is not appreciated and indicates, at least to\nme, that you've not read carefully the post you're responding\nto.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sounds backwards. By top-posting, do you somehow mean the original \npost on top of the reply?\n\nhttp://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html\n\nhttp://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting.html" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }