Subject: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator

From: Jim Raylor <rjraylor at yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 06:20:31 +0000

My own theories on the significance of M. Million
being an unbound simulator are probably idiosyncratic.

Playfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million,
making his full name Million Million Million etc.

This distinguishes him from a finite or bound
simulator.
Given infinite processing capacity could a machine
simulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet
M. Million seems the most humane member of the
household...

Also pure word association makes me think of
Prometheus.

Viewing 5HOC as a whodunnit, or more precisely a
whodunwhat, M Million should not be disregarded as a
suspect but I personally believe him innocent of
murder.

Some aspects of this character (M. M.) are reminiscent
of Ossipago

http://prisoner143.50megs.com/

I am not a number I am a free person!

___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:21:28 +0000

> making his full name Million Million Million etc.

Ummm... I think it's short for "Monsieur."

--Dan'l

-- 
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:55:45 +0000

>M. Million seems the most humane member of the

Most sentimental, perhaps, although it's hard to get a handle on Five's 
sentimentality with the way he writes; such things may be systematically 
omitted, from embarrassment or whatever reason. It certainly does seem that 
Five has passions under the surface of what he writes, and he is certainly 
capable of profound hatred.

With regard to simulating humanity, I would suggest that the question is 
purely grammatical. Can you pretend to think? Well, it would seem like if 
you really went through the motions you would *be* thinking, not just 
pretending. "But couldn't I do everything else I normally do when thinking, 
but not think?" -- well, you could perhaps scrunch up your eyes and make a 
face without thinking (much), such that it would fool an outside observer. 
But is scrunching up your eyes and making a face necessary to thinking at 
all - I mean, you are not pretending to *think*, you are just making faces, 
and making faces has nothing to do with thinking.

Similarly "humanity" - I assume we're not talking about the trivial 
biological sense of the term - is not something that can be simulated. If we 
grammatically allow that machine is the kind of thing which *can* simulate 
humanity, then if it behaves in such and such a way it is not *simulating* 
humanity, it is *being* human. And on the other hand if you assume that a 
machine is not the kind of thing which can do that, then its behaving in 
such and such a way is not simulating humanity *or* being human, it is 
simply a meaningless conjunction of circumstances.

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From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:08:46 +0000

What do you think? It doesn't really *look* like anything I remember from 
the book... but why else call the picture 'The Claw of the Conciliator'? 
The artist is Yoshitaka Amano, a renowned fantasy illustrator who 
collaborated with Neil Gaiman on 'Sandman: The Dream Hunters'. He seems to 
like doing random illustrations for fantasy stuff - there's some Elric 
illustrations on that website, too. Basically, high-calibre fan art. *g*

Anyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe illustration, then what do you 
suppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely not!)

Hm.

Hmpf

---
"I don't get out much, so I read."
Pilot, Farscape

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:56:50 +0000

Hmpf MacSlow writes: 

> http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Concilia 
> tor&picImage=pic16.JPG 
> 
> What do you think? 

Elric.

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From: Hmpf MacSlow <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:38:41 +0000

>>http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Concilia 

Nah. He did Elric, too, but Elric was usually clearly identified as Elric. 
(Actually he's apparently the official Michael Moorcock illustrator in 
Japan - I've done some research ;-))

Here's some of his Elric stuff:

http://www.amanosworld.com/html/work/moorcock.html

I can't really see Severian in the 'Claw of the Conciliator' pic, either, 
and I can't think of anyone it *could* be - but neither do I see why Amano 
would title that pic thus if it wasn't intended as some form of Wolfe 
illustration.

Actually, what throws me most is the apparently white/grey/silver hair.

Of course, there is the possibility that the website may have attributed 
the wrong title to the pic, quite simply.

Hmpf

---
"Everyone get out of the plot and help me push."
Patrick O'Shaughnessy: Triangle & Robert

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From: Sarah Dorrance-Minch <isobelwren at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:42:40 +0000

> suppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely

Not quite how I originally pictured Severian, but it
could work. 

I like the artist. I have _The Dream Hunters_, but
this is the first I've seen of his other work. Some of
it is reminiscent of Klimt, and I like Klimt.

Midori/Sarah

Ah, love couldst thou and I conspire/ To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire/ Would we not break it all to bits, and then/ Remold it nearer to the heart's desire - Omar Khayyam

Reach me a gentian, give me a torch
let me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower
down the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness.
 - D.H. Lawrence, "Bavarian Gentians"

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From: Christina Hansen <hmpf1998 at gmx.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:22:39 +0000

> it is reminiscent of Klimt, and I like Klimt.

If you like Amano check out the movie 'Angel's Egg' he worked on with Mamoru
Oshii. It's *very* Wolfean in regards to atmosphere, and even more
incomprehensible than your average Wolfe. I also suspect there's some
religious/philosophical stuff going on in it, but even the writer/director
admits (or claims) he has no clue what it's about. ;-)

There's a fan page for it:

http://www.cultivatetwiddle.com/angelsegg/

Hmpf

-- 
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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:02:11 +0000

Sandwalker is simulator of a human being. Also, as a Shadow Child, he personality is bound with the other Shadow Children. He is also connected to his twin brother. So he is a bound simulator.

~ Crush