# 5HC : Unbound Simulator *The Urth list — 9 messages, 7 voices, 16 Jun 2005* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Jim Raylor *16 Jun 2005, 06:20* My own theories on the significance of M. Million being an unbound simulator are probably idiosyncratic. Playfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million, making his full name Million Million Million etc. This distinguishes him from a finite or bound simulator. Given infinite processing capacity could a machine simulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet M. Million seems the most humane member of the household... Also pure word association makes me think of Prometheus. Viewing 5HOC as a whodunnit, or more precisely a whodunwhat, M Million should not be disregarded as a suspect but I personally believe him innocent of murder. Some aspects of this character (M. M.) are reminiscent of Ossipago http://prisoner143.50megs.com/ I am not a number I am a free person! --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *16 Jun 2005, 07:21 · in reply to Jim Raylor* > On 6/16/05, Jim Raylor wrote: > Playfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million, > making his full name Million Million Million etc. Ummm... I think it's short for "Monsieur." --Dan'l ``` I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him. -- St Teresa of Avila http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer ``` --- ### Chris *16 Jun 2005, 10:55 · in reply to Jim Raylor* > Given infinite processing capacity could a machine > simulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet > M. Million seems the most humane member of the > household... Most sentimental, perhaps, although it's hard to get a handle on Five's sentimentality with the way he writes; such things may be systematically omitted, from embarrassment or whatever reason. It certainly does seem that Five has passions under the surface of what he writes, and he is certainly capable of profound hatred. With regard to simulating humanity, I would suggest that the question is purely grammatical. Can you pretend to think? Well, it would seem like if you really went through the motions you would *be* thinking, not just pretending. "But couldn't I do everything else I normally do when thinking, but not think?" -- well, you could perhaps scrunch up your eyes and make a face without thinking (much), such that it would fool an outside observer. But is scrunching up your eyes and making a face necessary to thinking at all - I mean, you are not pretending to *think*, you are just making faces, and making faces has nothing to do with thinking. Similarly "humanity" - I assume we're not talking about the trivial biological sense of the term - is not something that can be simulated. If we grammatically allow that machine is the kind of thing which *can* simulate humanity, then if it behaves in such and such a way it is not *simulating* humanity, it is *being* human. And on the other hand if you assume that a machine is not the kind of thing which can do that, then its behaving in such and such a way is not simulating humanity *or* being human, it is simply a meaningless conjunction of circumstances. --- ### Hmpf MacSlow *16 Jun 2005, 11:08 · in reply to Chris* http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Conciliator&picImage=pic16.JPG What do you think? It doesn't really *look* like anything I remember from the book... but why else call the picture 'The Claw of the Conciliator'? The artist is Yoshitaka Amano, a renowned fantasy illustrator who collaborated with Neil Gaiman on 'Sandman: The Dream Hunters'. He seems to like doing random illustrations for fantasy stuff - there's some Elric illustrations on that website, too. Basically, high-calibre fan art. *g* Anyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe illustration, then what do you suppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely not!) Hm. Hmpf --- "I don't get out much, so I read." Pilot, Farscape --- ### Andy Robertson *16 Jun 2005, 13:56 · in reply to Hmpf MacSlow* Hmpf MacSlow writes: > http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Concilia > tor&picImage=pic16.JPG > > What do you think? Elric. --- ### Hmpf MacSlow *16 Jun 2005, 14:38 · in reply to Andy Robertson* > At 10:56 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote: > Hmpf MacSlow writes: >> http://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Concilia >> tor&picImage=pic16.JPG >> What do you think? > Elric. Nah. He did Elric, too, but Elric was usually clearly identified as Elric. (Actually he's apparently the official Michael Moorcock illustrator in Japan - I've done some research ;-)) Here's some of his Elric stuff: http://www.amanosworld.com/html/work/moorcock.html I can't really see Severian in the 'Claw of the Conciliator' pic, either, and I can't think of anyone it *could* be - but neither do I see why Amano would title that pic thus if it wasn't intended as some form of Wolfe illustration. Actually, what throws me most is the apparently white/grey/silver hair. Of course, there is the possibility that the website may have attributed the wrong title to the pic, quite simply. Hmpf --- "Everyone get out of the plot and help me push." Patrick O'Shaughnessy: Triangle & Robert --- ### Sarah Dorrance-Minch *16 Jun 2005, 20:42 · in reply to Hmpf MacSlow* > --- Hmpf MacSlow wrote: > Anyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe > illustration, then what do you > suppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely > not!) Not quite how I originally pictured Severian, but it could work. I like the artist. I have _The Dream Hunters_, but this is the first I've seen of his other work. Some of it is reminiscent of Klimt, and I like Klimt. Midori/Sarah Ah, love couldst thou and I conspire/ To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire/ Would we not break it all to bits, and then/ Remold it nearer to the heart's desire - Omar Khayyam Reach me a gentian, give me a torch let me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower down the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness. - D.H. Lawrence, "Bavarian Gentians" --- ### Christina Hansen *17 Jun 2005, 02:22 · in reply to Sarah Dorrance-Minch* > I like the artist. I have _The Dream Hunters_, but > this is the first I've seen of his other work. Some of > it is reminiscent of Klimt, and I like Klimt. If you like Amano check out the movie 'Angel's Egg' he worked on with Mamoru Oshii. It's *very* Wolfean in regards to atmosphere, and even more incomprehensible than your average Wolfe. I also suspect there's some religious/philosophical stuff going on in it, but even the writer/director admits (or claims) he has no clue what it's about. ;-) There's a fan page for it: http://www.cultivatetwiddle.com/angelsegg/ Hmpf ``` Weitersagen: GMX DSL-Flatrates mit Tempo-Garantie! Ab 4,99 Euro/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ``` --- ### James Wynn *17 Jun 2005, 17:02 · follows Chris* Sandwalker is simulator of a human being. Also, as a Shadow Child, he personality is bound with the other Shadow Children. He is also connected to his twin brother. So he is a bound simulator. ~ Crush ---