{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4449", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4449, "subject": "Severian's skin color", "messages": 47, "voices": 15, "first": "2005-06-16T12:38:36+00:00", "last": "2005-06-25T15:32:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<5bce95c8650ca44c14f4b37c9fb40eae@ou.edu>", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at ou.edu" }, "date": "2005-06-16T12:38:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Begin forwarded message:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Message: 8\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:08:15 +0200\nFrom: Hmpf MacSlow \nSubject: (urth) Is this a BotNS illustration?\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616200223.03762390 at pop.gmx.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nhttp://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3? \npicName=The+Claw+of+the+Conciliator&picImage=pic16.JPG\n\nWhat do you think? It doesn't really *look* like anything I remember \nfrom\nthe book... but why else call the picture 'The Claw of the \nConciliator'?\nThe artist is Yoshitaka Amano, a renowned fantasy illustrator who\ncollaborated with Neil Gaiman on 'Sandman: The Dream Hunters'. He \nseems to\nlike doing random illustrations for fantasy stuff - there's some Elric\nillustrations on that website, too. Basically, high-calibre fan art. \n*g*\n\nAnyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe illustration, then what do \nyou\nsuppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely not!)\n\nHm.\n\nHmpf" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What color is Severian's skin? I always thought it was quite dark, but \nmaybe I've been mistaken all along...\n\nKieran Mullen" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\n\"I don't get out much, so I read.\"\nPilot, Farscape\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20050616214700.01c47158@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2005-06-16T12:51:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<5bce95c8650ca44c14f4b37c9fb40eae@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What color is Severian's skin? I always thought it was quite dark, but\nmaybe I've been mistaken all along...\n\nKieran Mullen" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, it's fairly light, for Commonwealth standards - I think that's one of \nthe things that gets him being 'mistaken' for an exultant occasionally. Of \ncourse, to judge what 'light' in that context means we'd need to know what \n'normal'/'dark' would mean in the Commonwealth. *g*\n\nAnd it's been a while since I read the book, so I may be wrong, anyway.\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\n\"Senseless property destruction has failed me, and so I must resort to \nwackiness.\"\n- Patrick Shaughnessy, Triangle and Robert " } ] }, { "message_id": "<006701c572ae$8ea39b90$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T13:04:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<5bce95c8650ca44c14f4b37c9fb40eae@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Kieran Mullen\" \nWhat color is Severian's skin? I always thought it was quite dark, but \nmaybe I've been mistaken all along..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought he was described as very pale-skinned with black hair.\n\n-- Dave Lebling aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Seth Lombardi", "address": "sethlombardi at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T17:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<006701c572ae$8ea39b90$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What color is Severian's skin? I always thought it was quite dark, but\nmaybe I've been mistaken all along..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought he was described as very pale-skinned with black hair.\n\n-- Dave Lebling aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here. I have the first issue of the comic adaption and he looks a lot \nlike Neil Gaiman's Morpheus. The guy's pretty much a goth.\n\nseth\n*****************************\nSeth Lombardi\nsethlombardi at hotmail.com\nhttp://sethlombardi.blogspot.com/\nAIM: melombardi\n\"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their \nlikeness makes us laugh\" -Pascal" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506162013140667ef@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T20:13:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a clear case of artists assuming that the generic SFF hero\nis white no matter what the writer says.\n\nSomewhere in there Wolfe (or Severian) makes a comment to\nthe effect that each of the continents has a characteristic \nphysical \"type,\" and that peoples who live on a continent long\nenough will tend towards that \"type.\" (Something like a hundred\ngenerations?) Since the Commonwealth (a) is on - roughly - \nthe South American continent, and (b) has been there a long \ntime, we can reasonably conclude that its citizens resemble \ncontemporary native South Americans.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050617034448.33382.qmail@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T20:44:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<006701c572ae$8ea39b90$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- David Lebling wrote:\nI thought he was described as very pale-skinned with\nblack hair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just like his mother. The \"blonde\" fan art picture\nmust be borrowing his father's hair colour...\n\n\n\nMidori/Sarah\n\nAh, love couldst thou and I conspire/ To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire/ Would we not break it all to bits, and then/ Remold it nearer to the heart's desire - Omar Khayyam\n\nReach me a gentian, give me a torch\nlet me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower\ndown the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness.\n - D.H. Lawrence, \"Bavarian Gentians\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050617034734.30597.qmail@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T20:47:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Seth Lombardi wrote:\nSame here. I have the first issue of the comic\nadaption and he looks a lot \nlike Neil Gaiman's Morpheus. The guy's pretty much a\ngoth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ooh! Ooh! There's a graphic novel version of the\nTimescape series? I can see where my next tax refund\nis going.\n\n\n\nMidori/Sarah\n\nAh, love couldst thou and I conspire/ To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire/ Would we not break it all to bits, and then/ Remold it nearer to the heart's desire - Omar Khayyam\n\nReach me a gentian, give me a torch\nlet me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower\ndown the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness.\n - D.H. Lawrence, \"Bavarian Gentians\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050617035143.94118.qmail@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T20:51:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506162013140667ef@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSomewhere in there Wolfe (or Severian) makes a\ncomment to\nthe effect that each of the continents has a\ncharacteristic \nphysical \"type,\" and that peoples who live on a\ncontinent long\nenough will tend towards that \"type.\" (Something\nlike a hundred\ngenerations?) Since the Commonwealth (a) is on -\nroughly - \nthe South American continent, and (b) has been there\na long \ntime, we can reasonably conclude that its citizens\nresemble \ncontemporary native South Americans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indigenous, or descendants of European colonists? I\nused to be an ESL tutor; most of the businessmen I\ntutored were pretty pale, especially the Brazilians,\nsome of whom (from southern Brazil) had German\nsurnames and seemed to be an average of six feet four.\n\nIt's a big continent. There are currently as many\n\"types\" as in North America. As a side note, I wonder\nwhat the typical North American will look like\nmillions of years from now...\n\n\n\n\n\nMidori/Sarah\n\nAh, love couldst thou and I conspire/ To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire/ Would we not break it all to bits, and then/ Remold it nearer to the heart's desire - Omar Khayyam\n\nReach me a gentian, give me a torch\nlet me guide myself with the blue, forked torch of this flower\ndown the darker and darker stairs, where blue is darkened on blueness.\n - D.H. Lawrence, \"Bavarian Gentians\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050617044436.80614.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T21:44:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050617034448.33382.qmail@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:\nJust like his mother. The \"blonde\" fan art picture\nmust be borrowing his father's hair colour..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, yes. This brings me to something I had nearly\nforgotten. I'm assuming you're implying that Typhon\nis Sev's father (which is not a terribly popular\nopinion here since it's generally accepted that Ouen\nis sev's pop). This may be true but it's just as\nlikely that Piaton is his father since Typhon's head\nis grafted onto him at some point. Ymar is certainly\nthe son of Typhon or Piaton, and if Sev is not\nactually Ymar (meaning he's a clone), he's certainly a\nvessel for the first Autarch. In my mind this\nexplains the parallels between Sev's and Ymar's lives\nand Sev's confused memories. All my humble opinion,\nof course.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Seth Lombardi", "address": "sethlombardi at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-17T16:09:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506162013140667ef@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a clear case of artists assuming that the generic SFF hero\nis white no matter what the writer says.\n\nSomewhere in there Wolfe (or Severian) makes a comment to\nthe effect that each of the continents has a characteristic\nphysical \"type,\" and that peoples who live on a continent long\nenough will tend towards that \"type.\" (Something like a hundred\ngenerations?) Since the Commonwealth (a) is on - roughly -\nthe South American continent, and (b) has been there a long\ntime, we can reasonably conclude that its citizens resemble\ncontemporary native South Americans.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But much of South America is peopled by people who do not necessarily \nresemble \"native\" South Americans.\n\nAssuming Severian's theory be true, then we also have to assume that the \npeople who happen to live there have lived there in isolation without \ninvasion or other ethnic turmoil for a hundred generations, and also that \nthere have been no significant changes in diet or environment on that \ncontinent between now and TBOTNS. We already know that the sun has dimmed \nsignificantly. It is also harped on that Severain is tall and may or may not \nhave some exultant blood in him, and it's not even clear if exultants are \nnatives of Urth, much less what was once called South America. So, while I \nthink it may be reasonable to assume that Sevarian may be tale, pale and \nsunken-cheeked only by the standards of his community and not that of \ncontemporary Europeans, I think it's a bigger stretch to assert one way or \nanother that he or the people of Nessus look like contemporary native South \nAmericans, or any other ethnic group we can imagine.\n\nseth\n\n*****************************\nSeth Lombardi\nsethlombardi at hotmail.com\nhttp://sethlombardi.blogspot.com/\nAIM: melombardi\n\"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their \nlikeness makes us laugh\" -Pascal" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23f894a005061716432eb2d7c9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Andrew Kertesz", "address": "andrew.kertesz at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-17T16:43:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I was under the impression that the people of Severian's day\n(at least those of the \"lower\" social orders) are somewhat\nNeanderthalic. Wolfe makes a few references to high foreheads and\nthick brow-bones (IIRC - I may be completely off-base here...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/18/05, Seth Lombardi wrote:\nThis is a clear case of artists assuming that the generic SFF hero\nis white no matter what the writer says.\n\nSomewhere in there Wolfe (or Severian) makes a comment to\nthe effect that each of the continents has a characteristic\nphysical \"type,\" and that peoples who live on a continent long\nenough will tend towards that \"type.\" (Something like a hundred\ngenerations?) Since the Commonwealth (a) is on - roughly -\nthe South American continent, and (b) has been there a long\ntime, we can reasonably conclude that its citizens resemble\ncontemporary native South Americans.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But much of South America is peopled by people who do not necessarily\nresemble \"native\" South Americans.\n\nAssuming Severian's theory be true, then we also have to assume that the\npeople who happen to live there have lived there in isolation without\ninvasion or other ethnic turmoil for a hundred generations, and also that\nthere have been no significant changes in diet or environment on that\ncontinent between now and TBOTNS. We already know that the sun has dimmed\nsignificantly. It is also harped on that Severain is tall and may or may not\nhave some exultant blood in him, and it's not even clear if exultants are\nnatives of Urth, much less what was once called South America. So, while I\nthink it may be reasonable to assume that Sevarian may be tale, pale and\nsunken-cheeked only by the standards of his community and not that of\ncontemporary Europeans, I think it's a bigger stretch to assert one way or\nanother that he or the people of Nessus look like contemporary native South\nAmericans, or any other ethnic group we can imagine.\n\nseth\n\n*****************************\nSeth Lombardi\nsethlombardi at hotmail.com\nhttp://sethlombardi.blogspot.com/\nAIM: melombardi\n\"Two faces are alike; neither is funny by itself, but side by side their\nlikeness makes us laugh\" -Pascal\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050618033318.24604.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-17T20:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050617044436.80614.qmail@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- don doggett wrote:\nAh, yes. This brings me to something I had nearly\nforgotten. I'm assuming you're implying that Typhon\nis Sev's father" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I was under the impression that the waiter Ouen is\nin fact his biological father. I recently took the\npairing _Sword and Citadel_ from the library, and I\nremember reading near the end of _Citadel of the\nAutarch_ that Ouen had fair hair. At least I hope I\nread that right. I will confess that my short term\nmemory can sometimes be almost as bad as Dori's memory\n(the Imperial Blue Tang fish in Finding Nemo, who\n\"suffers from short term memory loss\")\n\nI find this alternative interpretation of Severian's\nparentage intriguing, although it's warping my mind.\nAll right, I admit it, my brain cells aren't turning\nthe hamster wheel of my mind fast enough today. What's\nthe rationale behind it?\n\nOddly, I don't find it all that odd that one of\nSeverian's closest love interests was his dead\ngrandmother. I'm afraid to ask myself what that says\nabout me.\n\n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie and Liesl and militant lactivist cult member" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050618034919.79087.qmail@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-17T20:49:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Seth Lombardi wrote:\nSo, while I \nthink it may be reasonable to assume that Sevarian\nmay be tale, pale and \nsunken-cheeked only by the standards of his\ncommunity and not that of \ncontemporary Europeans, I think it's a bigger\nstretch to assert one way or \nanother that he or the people of Nessus look like\ncontemporary native South \nAmericans, or any other ethnic group we can imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your explanation was a lot clearer than mine. And yes,\nthat's what I had been trying to say. \n\n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie and Liesl and militant lactivist cult member" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-06-18T00:50:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, \nwhile I think it may be reasonable to assume that Sevarian may be tale, \npale and sunken-cheeked only by the standards of his community and not \nthat of contemporary Europeans, I think it's a bigger stretch to assert \none way or another that he or the people of Nessus look like contemporary \nnative South Americans, or any other ethnic group we can imagine. \n\nseth" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nThe people of the Commonwealth do look like contemporary south Americans. \nThere's a largely European upper class (some of whom have pale/blond hair \nand blue eyes), a lower class of Amerindian \"autocthons\" with dark skin and \nstraight thick dark hair, and a mixed group between. \n\nIn the far South there are people who look like contemporary Scandinavians \nwith \"pale hair and speckled skin\" (ref innkeeper describing the levies as \nhe chats to Severian in Nessus). \n\nI agree this makes zero sense at umpty zillion AD, but Wolfe describes these \ngroups quite clearly. \n\n. \n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050619235910.20620.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-19T16:59:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050618033318.24604.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:\n\nI find this alternative interpretation of Severian's\nparentage intriguing, although it's warping my mind.\nAll right, I admit it, my brain cells aren't turning\nthe hamster wheel of my mind fast enough today.\nWhat's\nthe rationale behind it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been discounted by most people on the list, but\nthe rationale in a nutshell is the parallels between\nSev's life and Ymar's, clues in the Tale of Frog\n(sorry, my books are on unintentionaly permanent loan\n- I should know better by now.) And the fact that\nSev's confrontation with Typhon reflects the hero's\nconfrontation with his father in Joseph Campbell's\nwhatever-you-call-it theory. Here's the links to my\nargument from long ago. \nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0303/3022.txt.shtml\nand\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0303/3023.txt.shtml\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<30712710.1119304439136.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-20T14:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050619235910.20620.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find this [Typhon/Piaton/Severian] alternative\ninterpretation of Severian's\nparentage intriguing, although it's warping my\nmind...What's the rationale behind it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been discounted by most people on the list, but\nthe rationale in a nutshell is the parallels between\nSev's life and Ymar's, clues in the Tale of Frog\n(sorry, my books are on unintentionaly permanent loan\n- I should know better by now.) And the fact that\nSev's confrontation with Typhon reflects the hero's\nconfrontation with his father in Joseph Campbell's\nwhatever-you-call-it theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, I concur with the gist of the interpretation\nalthough I couldn't say what the parallels between Sev &\nYmar's life are, I didn't originally find Don's interpretation\nof the Tale of the Frog drastically compelling, and I'm\ncontemptuous Campbell's interpretation of myth and don't\nsee it as much of an influence on Wolfe.\n\nI believed it, initially, because the Short Sun declared that \nSeverian's crypt held Typhon's immediate family. After that,\nthings began to fall into place and make more sense. \n\nIn an interview with Nick Gevers he was asked:\nhttp://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm\n\nNG: Why did you choose in Short Sun to have your\ncharacters cross over into the milieu of New Sun? In\nparticular, do the meetings of Horn/Silk and Severian have\na decisive impact on the destinies of both? \n\nGW: Because the books would have been lame if they had\nnot. Once you see that Pas is or was Typhon, and know the\nRajan can travel by astral projection, he's got to do that.\n\nWhat Wolfe doesn't explain to my satisfaction is why it was\nnecessary. It doesn't seem that obvious to me. I mean,\nit would seem more obvious for the Rajan to go back and\nmeet Typhon wouldn't it? Or at least stand over his\nlifeless body. Why Severian?\n\nIn some interview that I can't currently place, Wolfe said\nthat early on in the writing of the Long Sun, he came to\nrealize it had to be a story about the family of Typhon.\nWhich made me say \"Hmm...I thought it was about Silk\nand Tussah and Pike and Marble and Awk and Chenille \nand Horn.\"\n\nWell? That's why I think Severian *had* to make an appearance.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-20T15:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<30712710.1119304439136.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can think of another way to read this than an implication that the Rajan \nshould go back and meet Typhon. Basically Pas was Typhon, but became \nsomething a little different (and perhaps a little more). Recall that Silk \nat this point is maybe not the original, but comes from \"Silver Silk\" which \nsupplanted Pas, but probably incorporated at least some elements from Pas. \nThus in a certain way the Rajan *is*, or is descended from, Typhon.\n\nSo the Rajan, as a stand-in for Typhon, fittingly gets to visit Severian in \nhis formative years. Though of course whatever influence he exerts over \nSeverian is not what the original Typhon would have chosen.\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: Because the books would have been lame if they had\nnot. Once you see that Pas is or was Typhon, and know the\nRajan can travel by astral projection, he's got to do that.\n\nWhat Wolfe doesn't explain to my satisfaction is why it was\nnecessary. It doesn't seem that obvious to me. I mean,\nit would seem more obvious for the Rajan to go back and\nmeet Typhon wouldn't it? Or at least stand over his\nlifeless body. Why Severian?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050621034448.7788.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-20T20:44:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<30712710.1119304439136.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to admit that my essay was very by the seat of\nthe pants, and that it was later disclosed that Wolfe\nhad never read King Jesus. However most of the ideas\nin that work can be found just as readily in The White\nGoddess, which I read after I wrote the essay and\nwhich GW has almost certainly read. Silk and Severian\nare genetically related, father to son, brother to\nbrother, or brother to half brother I don't know, but\nit's there. IMVHO.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\n\nFor the record, I concur with the gist of the\ninterpretation\nalthough I couldn't say what the parallels between\nSev &\nYmar's life are, I didn't originally find Don's\ninterpretation\nof the Tale of the Frog drastically compelling, and\nI'm\ncontemptuous Campbell's interpretation of myth and\ndon't\nsee it as much of an influence on Wolfe.\n\nI believed it, initially, because the Short Sun\ndeclared that \nSeverian's crypt held Typhon's immediate family.\nAfter that,\nthings began to fall into place and make more sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<24547557.1119456429149.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-22T09:08:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050621034448.7788.qmail@web32413.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: Because the books would have been lame if they had\nnot. Once you see that Pas is or was Typhon, and know the\nRajan can travel by astral projection, he's got to do that.\n\nWhat Wolfe doesn't explain to my satisfaction is why it was\nnecessary. It doesn't seem that obvious to me. I mean,\nit would seem more obvious for the Rajan to go back and\nmeet Typhon wouldn't it? Or at least stand over his\nlifeless body. Why Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can think of another way to read this than an implication that the Rajan \nshould go back and meet Typhon. Basically Pas was Typhon, but became \nsomething a little different (and perhaps a little more). Recall that Silk \nat this point is maybe not the original, but comes from \"Silver Silk\" which \nsupplanted Pas, but probably incorporated at least some elements from Pas. \nThus in a certain way the Rajan *is*, or is descended from, Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the Rajan, as a stand-in for Typhon, fittingly gets to visit Severian in \nhis formative years. Though of course whatever influence he exerts over \nSeverian is not what the original Typhon would have chosen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...Well, I doubt the Rajan contains 'Silver Silk' (have there been any\nproposed etymologies to this title?), and I don't know of any compelling\nreason to think SS has any of Pas in him/it.\n\nHowever, interestingly, I think you are definitely on to something because\nI believe Horn is a clone of Typhon. There, I said it.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-22T13:51:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<24547557.1119456429149.JavaMail.root@wamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm...Well, I doubt the Rajan contains 'Silver Silk' (have there been any\nproposed etymologies to this title?), and I don't know of any compelling\nreason to think SS has any of Pas in him/it.\n\nHowever, interestingly, I think you are definitely on to something because\nI believe Horn is a clone of Typhon. There, I said it.\n\n~ Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking of Silver Silk as the combination of uploaded Silk with the \nremaining fragments of Pas, but browsing through the archives seems to \nindicate my memory is mistaken on that point - still, the situation seems \nvery confused with Silver Silk, Silent Silk, and \"Pas-silk\" involved. \nGeneral speculation seems to be that the version that was in Pig was \nPas-silk, and that was the one I was thinking of.\n\nThe question of whether Silk gets into Silk/Horn via Pig, or from Pig to a \nmonitor into Silk/Horn, or was there all along, is contentious and I'm not \ngoing to try to argue it here. The relevant question for me here is whether \nwhatever version of Silk is in Silk/Horn had ever had access to fragments of \nPas. And I think there's a good chance, or at least a live possibility, that \nhe did - though I won't claim it's not arguable.\n\nWhat becomes even more intriguing is the question of where, in the \nchronology of the New Sun, Typhon scanned himself as Pas. Was it before he \never encountered the Conciliator, or between the first and second times (of \ncourse the first visit chronologically was the second from Severian's \nsubjective point of view). If it took place after, you get the possibility \nthat Silk/Horn might actually *remember* Severian. But it has been argued \n(fairly well) by Roy Lackey that the Whorl had to have been launched before \nTyphon's first encounter with the Conciliator (ref: \nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0303/3073.txt.shtml) so if that holds \nthen this is a dead end. Regardless, it is still poignant to have fragments \nof a transformed, \"kinder, gentler\" Typhon encounter Severian near the \nbeginning of his journey." } ] }, { "message_id": "<15061289.1119478008901.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-22T15:06:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris speculates" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The relevant question for me here is whether \nwhatever version of Silk is in Silk/Horn had ever had access to fragments of \nPas. And I think there's a good chance, or at least a live possibility, that \nhe did - though I won't claim it's not arguable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, after Pas re-emerged and began to purge the Mainframe of the rebel\nmodules, I'm sure there were plenty of opportunities for Silk to encounter it.\nBut if an aspect of Pas were hiding in Silk, I can't imagine him agreeing to\nSilk's resignation and hermitage. That doesn't sound like any simulation of Typhon.\n\nIf Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon, then he would carry Typhon's very face back to the Whorl\nto meet Severian. As appealing as that would be to me. I don't believe it. \n\nWolfe has said (when asked about Silk's \"ancestry\"), that Silk is the son of the\nCalde and his mistress. The question was regarding his *ancestry*, not his\nparentage. I resolved this quandray by asserting that Tussah was Typhon's\nclone, and that Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris' original (\"the\nson not of my body shall be Calde after me\"). Thus, Tussah and Pas are\nmurdered about the same time and Silk rises to take both their places.\nAnd that's why Silk meets 2 pairs of parents during his death: Pas,\nKypris, Tussah, and his aknowledged mother.\n\nFor a lot of reasons, I would still like to say that Silk's \"original\" was a clone of\nTyphon emplanted in proto-Kypris. But the text suggests that Chenille looked\n*very* much like Tussah and Horn told Silk that he and Chenille didn't \"really\nlook that much alike.\" There's no way around it for me. Silk is genetically the\nbio-child of Typhon and proto-Kypris.\n\nWhich brings me back to the question of why it was *Silk* who was chosen to\nbe scanned to repair Pas. I understand why Wolfe did it thematically; I wish\nhe had justified it narratively. Perhaps it could have been anyone, but they\nchose Silk as an honor because of his help against the Ayuntamiento." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What becomes even more intriguing is the question of where, in the \nchronology of the New Sun, Typhon scanned himself as Pas. Was it before he \never encountered the Conciliator, or between the first and second times (of \ncourse the first visit chronologically was the second from Severian's \nsubjective point of view)...But it has been argued \n(fairly well) by Roy Lackey that the Whorl had to have been launched before \nTyphon's first encounter with the Conciliator (ref: \nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0303/3073.txt.shtml) so if that holds \nthen this is a dead end." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I consider it self-evident that Typhon's scan occurred after he got his\nnew body, since Pas has two heads. I don't have my books, but I seem to\nrecall a suggestion that Typhon had *just* got Piaton's body when he met\nthe Conciliator. That would place the Whorl's launch just before or very soon\nafter his confrontation with the Concilliator. In that case, the scan must have\noccurred as the capstone to the Whorl project before launching. Since I say\nthe taking of Piaton's body was punishment for his taking part in the rebellion\nwith his siblings and mother, there is the very real possibility that Typhon had\nhimself rescanned with this new body after executing his family. Would Typhon\nhave permitted his rebellious family to be a worshiped pantheon on the Whorl\nafter they had betrayed him? Well, look how their are depicted and you tell me.\nPas and Kypris depicted naturalistically. The rest of his family are monsters.\nTyphon might have had himself scanned again simply because he wanted Pas to\nbe knowledgible of his family's potential treachery. \n\nBut this is irrelevant to our discussion since I find it hard to believe Pas was in\nSilk when the Rajan entered his body.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506221557611382b0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-22T15:57:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<15061289.1119478008901.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Point of order:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/22/05, James Wynn wrote:\nIf Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon, then he would carry Typhon's very face back to the Whorl\nto meet Severian. As appealing as that would be to me. I don't believe it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this theory appealing, for very much the reason you show\n-- Typhon is very concerned about \"the face of command,\" which \nis why he wants a full-head transplant rather than a brain transplant\n-- but I'm not prepared to defend the theory, I can't say \"this is how\nI think it is.\" It's just an interesting possibility.\n\nWhich is how most interpretations of the solar books seem to me,\ncome to think of it.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-22T23:27:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<15061289.1119478008901.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, after Pas re-emerged and began to purge the Mainframe of the rebel\nmodules, I'm sure there were plenty of opportunities for Silk to encounter \nit.\nBut if an aspect of Pas were hiding in Silk, I can't imagine him agreeing \nto\nSilk's resignation and hermitage. That doesn't sound like any simulation of \nTyphon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It depends on what state Pas was in, I suppose. I don't think there was \nenough left of him to form a coherent person, and what is left is bound up \ninto the persona uploaded by Silk, and the combined Passilk is probably \ntechnically different from either of them, but much more like Silk than \nTyphon.\n\nGiven this even in the best case it might be impossible to know just what \nTyphon lost, and whether possible memories of Severian would be among what \nremained." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon, then he would carry Typhon's very face back to the Whorl\nto meet Severian. As appealing as that would be to me. I don't believe it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't have much to say for or against the clone theory, but to me it \nalways seemed a little beside the point. The DNA Silk had in his meatybits \nis only of peripheral interest (at least to me), and the only problem I have \nwith the clone theories is that they tend to make that aspect central to \ntheir interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I consider it self-evident that Typhon's scan occurred after he got \nhis\nnew body, since Pas has two heads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, and I find this to be dead-on convincing personally. But at the same \ntime it seems almost impossible to maintain continuity either way, because \nthere's a pretty strong case going the other way. I hate to suggest it but \nperhaps this is just the product of an error on Wolfe's part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is irrelevant to our discussion since I find it hard to believe \nPas was in\nSilk when the Rajan entered his body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it would make a difference, regardless of whether Pas was there, if we \nwere to believe that Silk had knowledge of Severian. At that point in the \nstory, if I recall correctly, Silkhorn was no longer narrating. Was there \nany point where he and Severian were \"off camera\" and could have had a \nconversation the narrator wasn't privy to?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c577c9$3242d620$133ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T00:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nIf Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon, then he would carry Typhon's very face back to the Whorl\nto meet Severian. As appealing as that would be to me. I don't believe it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you must have meant \"carry Typhon's very face back to _Urth_\". In\nany event, I never claimed that Silk was a clone of Typhon, as the\npreviously referenced post and others from the same time period indicate. I\nargued against it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe has said (when asked about Silk's \"ancestry\"), that Silk is the son\nof the\nCalde and his mistress. The question was regarding his *ancestry*, not his\nparentage. I resolved this quandray by asserting that Tussah was Typhon's\nclone, and that Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris' original\n(\"the\nson not of my body shall be Calde after me\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To assert that Tussah was a clone of Typhon is an unnecessary plot\ncomplication for which there is no textual support. It is enough that the\nold Calde was Silk's spiritual, adoptive father who designated his 'son' as\nthe heir to his office." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, Tussah and Pas are\nmurdered about the same time and Silk rises to take both their places.\nAnd that's why Silk meets 2 pairs of parents during his death: Pas,\nKypris, Tussah, and his aknowledged mother.\n\nFor a lot of reasons, I would still like to say that Silk's \"original\" was\na clone of\nTyphon emplanted in proto-Kypris. But the text suggests that Chenille\nlooked\n*very* much like Tussah and Horn told Silk that he and Chenille didn't\n\"really\nlook that much alike.\" There's no way around it for me. Silk is genetically\nthe\nbio-child of Typhon and proto-Kypris." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's see -- \"Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris' original\".\nSo, Typhon fathered a son on his mistress, and Silk is a clone of that son?\nDid Typhon father that child before or after he lost his body? Did the male\nhalf of the genetic material come from the original Typhon or from Piaton?\nAnd who was that son? Why isn't he in the pantheon? Why isn't he in the\nbooks?\n\nAnd Kypris had the hots for a clone of her own son, and the clone\nreciprocated. Tisk, tisk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier, Crush wrote:\nI believe Horn is a clone of Typhon. There, I said it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to see the textual basis for that claim. You have, genetically\nspeaking, Typhon = Tussah = balding Horn. And no one noticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two. Not Hammerstone, who had seen both Typhon and Horn.\nNot Marble or Kypris, who had seen all three. And it seems to have escaped\nthe notice of _everyone_ how much Horn looked like Chenille.\n\nTyphon was proud of his face. He had 'command presence'. Horn had trouble\nruling his own family.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14654958.1119541214847.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T08:44:59+00:00", "subject": "Fw: Re: (urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<001201c577c9$3242d620$133ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon, then he would carry Typhon's very face back to the Whorl\nto meet Severian. As appealing as that would be to me. I don't believe it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this theory appealing, for very much the reason you show\n-- Typhon is very concerned about \"the face of command,\" which \nis why he wants a full-head transplant rather than a brain transplant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I didn't intend to pin this tail on you. I only referred to you and Roy\nbecause in the post Chris cited, y'all were, at the time, putting it forward.\nActually, I also find the concept very appealing as I said. I probably have 2\ndozen reasons for wanting it as an explanation for what is going on. But alas.\n\nHowever, I think you are right about Typhon's interest in his own face in that\nTyphon or Pas *did* intend for Typhon's face to lead the colonists. But Echidna\n& Co and the Ayuntamiento spoiled it by knocking off Pas and Tussah. \n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23834708.1119541288469.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T08:45:31+00:00", "subject": "Fw: Re: (urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<14654958.1119541214847.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To assert that Tussah was a clone of Typhon is an unnecessary plot\ncomplication for which there is no textual support. It is enough that the\nold Calde was Silk's spiritual, adoptive father who designated his 'son' as\nthe heir to his office." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"It is enough\" is a key word here. I once had about 5 potential\nexplanations for Tussah's relationship with Silk. The one you give *could*\nhave been the explanation among others.\n\nI settled on this \"unnecessary plot complication\" only after\nWolfe himself shut every other door. Wolfe was asked explicitly about Silk's\n\"ancestry\" and he said Silk was \"the son of the Calde and his mistress\". \nUnless one argues that Silk is the natural biological son of Tussah and his\nmistress (which is not explicitly denied in the text but is still untenable) then\nwe are left to consider who that Calde in Silk's ancestry is. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's see -- \"Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris' original\".\nSo, Typhon fathered a son on his mistress, and Silk is a clone of that son?\nDid Typhon father that child before or after he lost his body? Did the male\nhalf of the genetic material come from the original Typhon or from Piaton?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting question. But as you know, Typhon was blonde like Silk.\nPiaton dark-featured. But you make a significant point that Typhon has two\nheads *and* two bodies. This is important in some of the themes Wolfe riffs\non. But not in this case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who was that son? Why isn't he in the pantheon? Why isn't he in the\nbooks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I direct you to the Book of the New Sun...the story of Spring Wind\n(synonymous with \"Typhon\") and Bird of the Woods (the \"People and\nPlaces\" section of \"Exodus otLS\" or \"Calde otLS\" mentions Chico, Mamelta's\npet parrot - this bird is not elsewhere mentioned in the whole saga\n- I take this an identity flag)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Kypris had the hots for a clone of her own son, and the clone\nreciprocated. Tisk, tisk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(sigh) Kypris was not Silk's genetic mother. She was a algorithmic\nsimulation. I don't think even \"Silver Silk\" and Kypris could have\nhad sex so what is your point? I could spend reems detailing the\nmythological types regarding mother and son that Wolfe is riffing off of,\nbut I'm sure you know them already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to see the textual basis for that claim [that Horn is a clone of Typhon]. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It starts with the understanding that Tussah is a clone of Typhon. I\nrealize that that is hardly self-evident from the text. As I said. I settled\non it only after Wolfe shut every other door. But once you read it that\nway, much more starts to make sense. Give it a shot. And once you\naccept THAT, and once you accept that the story is littered with those\nfrozen embryos like the ones in the looted freezer Silk and Mamelta\nfound...then Horn's discussion about Pas at the beginning of \"On Blue\nWaters\" and other places start fall in to place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have, genetically\nspeaking, Typhon = [bald] Tussah = balding Horn. And no one noticed.\nNot Quetzal, who knew the latter two. Not Hammerstone, who had seen both Typhon and Horn.\nNot Marble or Kypris, who had seen all three. And it seems to have escaped\nthe notice of _everyone_ how much Horn looked like Chenille." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What makes you think Quetzal didn't notice? Horn was too young be of\nuse overturning the Ayuntamiento, and the Trivigaunte spies were doing\na lot of the work for him in putting Silk in that place. Quetzal knows a lot\nhe doesn't talk about...certainly not to Horn and Nettle who are the narrators.\nKypris? Same thing. What help could Horn provide for bringing back Pas?\nThe Plan of Pas had been totally screwed 30 years before. The powers on\nthe Whorl who wanted to see it happen had to work with what they had.\n\nPas was a god with two heads, both with hair. Tussah was a bald middle-aged\nman. Horn was a teenager. Do you really think whatever simularities they\nhad in features were not ignorable? \n\nWolfe could have had chosen to have someone note these things. He could\nhave explained a lot of things more clearly in this 7 volumn novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon was proud of his face. He had 'command presence'. Horn had trouble\nruling his own family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad you brought up this similarity between Typhon, Pas, and Horn.\nPas was master at keeping his family in line. He did a much worse job than\nHorn. You really think Typhon was so different? We know for a fact at least\nthat his 12 year old daughter was conspiring against him with his enemies.\n\nAlso, Horn is the one person that the leaders of New Viron turn to when things\nare clearly going south. He leads a war against the Inhumi on Green.\nThus his thoughts on the embryos that were given special genetic abilities in\n\"leadership\" becomes significant.\n\n~ Cursh" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26729413.1119542917310.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T09:09:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<23834708.1119541288469.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't have much to say for or against the clone theory, but to me it \nalways seemed a little beside the point. The DNA Silk had in his meatybits \nis only of peripheral interest (at least to me), and the only problem I have \nwith the clone theories is that they tend to make that aspect central to \ntheir interpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thematically, I consider it very important. Tussah=Typhon means that\nTussah;s and Pas's murder that happened at about the same are\nconnected so far as the story goes. Much has been made of Pas's\npossible intentions for Silk. It shows that Pas' original plan did not\ninclude Silk. Silk came later, after things went awry. If Silk is genetically\nHorn's son, then the fact that the Rajan is simultaneously Silk, Horn, and\nHorn the Neighbor builds on the theme of rationalizing the Holy Trinity\nwhich Wolfe takes at many levels in The Short Sun. \n\nBasically, knowing Silk is Typhon's son, is as useful as knowing that Krait\nis Horn's son. Hmm..no one ever asks if any of the other Inhumi bear the\nsouls of named characters in the story. Don't you think they would\ngravitate toward the same roles their originals had in one way or another\nif possible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I consider it self-evident that Typhon's scan occurred after he got \nhis new body, since Pas has two heads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, and I find this to be dead-on convincing personally. But at the same \ntime it seems almost impossible to maintain continuity either way, because \nthere's a pretty strong case going the other way. I hate to suggest it but \nperhaps this is just the product of an error on Wolfe's part." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gasp! heh heh\nActually, I agree that shoehorning the launching of the Whorl into the\napparently brief period between Piaton getting his new head and the\nfirst death of Typhon is a tight squeeze. But I think it can be done. And so\nfar, I'm still inclined to my stated opinion on this. But I would love to be\nconvinced otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But it would make a difference, regardless of whether Pas was there, if we \nwere to believe that Silk had knowledge of Severian. At that point in the \nstory, if I recall correctly, Silkhorn was no longer narrating. Was there \nany point where he and Severian were \"off camera\" and could have had a \nconversation the narrator wasn't privy to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, even if Typhon's scan occurred after his meeting with the Concilliator,\n*and* that the Rajan carried the memory of that meeting, there is no\nguarantee that the Rajan would associate a boy he encounted\nwith the somewhat older haggard prophet he encountered on before\nthe launch.\n\nOn the other hand, if that boy was the image of Typhon's own son...well,\nperhaps there would be something there.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050623171827.29556.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T10:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<001201c577c9$3242d620$133ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nI'd like to see the textual basis for that claim.\nYou have, genetically\nspeaking, Typhon = Tussah = balding Horn. And no one\nnoticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two. Not Hammerstone, who had\nseen both Typhon and Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this an acknowledgement that Quetzal personally\nknew Typhon? You realise you're saying that Quetzal\ncame from Urth then, and didn't slip onto the Whorl 30\nyears prior to the start of LS. I'm not trying to\ndredge up the old blushas greeshas blurth blah blee\ndebate but I would like a clarification. Thanks\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T10:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050623171827.29556.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd like to see the textual basis for that claim.\nYou have, genetically\nspeaking, Typhon = Tussah = balding Horn. And no one\nnoticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two. Not Hammerstone, who had\nseen both Typhon and Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this an acknowledgement that Quetzal personally\nknew Typhon? You realise you're saying that Quetzal\ncame from Urth then, and didn't slip onto the Whorl 30\nyears prior to the start of LS. I'm not trying to\ndredge up the old blushas greeshas blurth blah blee\ndebate but I would like a clarification. Thanks\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quetzal knew Pas, the same as any other augur in the Whorl. And given \nTyphon's preoccupation with his face, it is assumed that he would *not* have \ngiven Pas a different face than himself." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050623180809.77969.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T11:08:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Chris wrote:\nQuetzal knew Pas, the same as any other augur in the\nWhorl. And given \nTyphon's preoccupation with his face, it is assumed\nthat he would *not* have \ngiven Pas a different face than himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, but Roy didn't say Pas, he said Typhon. Not to be\nnitpicky but I think that requires clarification,\nespecially with this series. It also keeps Roy from\nbeing misquoted later.\n\nDon\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<24354633.1119551180400.JavaMail.root@wamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T11:26:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050623180809.77969.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You have, genetically\nspeaking, Typhon = Tussah = balding Horn. And no one\nnoticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this an acknowledgement that Quetzal personally\nknew Typhon? You realise you're saying that Quetzal\ncame from Urth then, and didn't slip onto the Whorl 30\nyears prior to the start of LS. I'm not trying to\ndredge up the old blushas greeshas blurth blah blee\ndebate but I would like a clarification. Thanks" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quetzal knew Pas, the same as any other augur in the Whorl. And given \nTyphon's preoccupation with his face, it is assumed that he would *not* have \ngiven Pas a different face than himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Roy was saying that Quetzal only knew Tussah and Horn.\nWolfe has clarified when Quetzal entered the Whorl on the urth list by saying\nthat Quetzal was \"a late arrival\" but that he's not the only Inhumi on the Whorl.\nI'm inclined to believe that the Neighbors/Inhumi were involved in the Whorl's\nlaunching based the Inhumis' thematic connection with Dionysus and the LS/SS\nsimilarities to the \"King Midas and His Golden Touch\" story. \nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/midas.htm\n\nBut it's not iron-clad. Wolfe's interweaving of myth and literature can provide\nclues but he *does* go off-script as I have learned with frustration. And of \ncourse, the text itself says nothing of this.\n\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050623141304.E66903-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2005-06-23T11:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050623180809.77969.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Doggett,\n\nActually, what Mr. Lackey said, is that Quetzal\nknew -Tussah- and Horn. The statement was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have, genetically speaking,\nTyphon = Tussah = balding Horn.\nAnd no one noticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The \"latter two\" are Tussah and Horn. The char-\nacters that Mr. Lackey mentions as having seen\nTyphon are Hammerstone, Marble, and Kypris.\nThe full posting is in the archive at:\n\nhttp://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2005-June/001168.html\n\nIt is, so far, the only post by Mr. Lackey this\nmonth, so you can just search on his name to\nfind it.\n\nI hope this provides the desired clarification.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, don doggett wrote:\n--- Chris wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quetzal knew Pas, the same\nas any other augur in the\nWhorl. And given Typhon's\npreoccupation with his\nface, it is assumed that\nhe would *not* have given\nPas a different face than\nhimself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ok, but Roy didn't say Pas, he said\nTyphon. Not to be nitpicky but I\nthink that requires clarification,\nespecially with this series. It also\nkeeps Roy from being misquoted later.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T12:14:26+00:00", "subject": "Fw: Re: (urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<23834708.1119541288469.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though I try to remain agnostic about the whole clone thing, I might as well \nthrow in some things that I think are problematic.\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I settled on this \"unnecessary plot complication\" only after\nWolfe himself shut every other door. Wolfe was asked explicitly about \nSilk's\n\"ancestry\" and he said Silk was \"the son of the Calde and his mistress\".\nUnless one argues that Silk is the natural biological son of Tussah and his\nmistress (which is not explicitly denied in the text but is still \nuntenable) then\nwe are left to consider who that Calde in Silk's ancestry is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find the application of the term \"Calde\" to Typhon to be very out of place \nhere; the natural implication one would normally draw is that Wolfe is \nreferring to Tussah. If you assume that Wolfe is being conversationally \nperverse here, then the term \"Calde\" could be applied to almost anyone. \nWhich is not to say it's impossible that things are as you say.\n\nFor the life of me, though, I can't think of what purpose it might serve for \nTyphon to do this. It has been suggested that it was a body that Typhon was \nmeant to inhabit, but that doesn't really work - why not clone himself and \npossess that body, rather than his son? And if he were going for \noptimization, why go with a natural biological pairing instead of a \ngenetically engineered alternative? On the other hand if the embryo is \nsupposed to be raised as an actual son for Pas in the new world, he would \nmake a dangerous potential rival." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And who was that son? Why isn't he in the pantheon? Why isn't he in the\nbooks?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I direct you to the Book of the New Sun...the story of Spring Wind\n(synonymous with \"Typhon\") and Bird of the Woods (the \"People and\nPlaces\" section of \"Exodus otLS\" or \"Calde otLS\" mentions Chico, Mamelta's\npet parrot - this bird is not elsewhere mentioned in the whole saga\n- I take this an identity flag)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not sure what you are getting at with this. But all in all if Typhon \nand the-mistress-who-became-Kypris did have a child I don't see why this \nwould necessarily need any mention in the books or pantheon. The son could \nhave been born during the rebellion, and very possibly killed by Typhon's \nwife and her children before developing a personality extensive enough to be \nworth scanning. One would certainly expect his bastard children to enjoy a \nvery short lifespan in those circumstances.\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd like to see the textual basis for that claim [that Horn is a clone of \nTyphon]." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I would add, I would like to see the textual *purpose* for Horn being a \nclone of any kind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It starts with the understanding that Tussah is a clone of Typhon. I\nrealize that that is hardly self-evident from the text. As I said. I \nsettled\non it only after Wolfe shut every other door. But once you read it that\nway, much more starts to make sense. Give it a shot. And once you\naccept THAT, and once you accept that the story is littered with those\nfrozen embryos like the ones in the looted freezer Silk and Mamelta\nfound...then Horn's discussion about Pas at the beginning of \"On Blue\nWaters\" and other places start fall in to place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those little frozen embryos were enormously expensive and not easy to come \nby, and Horn's family was not of any great wealth. Nor is there any \nindication of who, if anyone, would give such an embryo to them to raise, or \nwhy. If you are suggesting that he was planted there in order to later be \nexposed to Silk, this would have had to have been planned long before Silk \neven came to that manteion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas was a god with two heads, both with hair. Tussah was a bald middle-aged\nman. Horn was a teenager. Do you really think whatever simularities they\nhad in features were not ignorable?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Later on, there should have then been a marked similarity between Horn \n(genetically Typhon) and Silk (genetically Typhon's son). This is something \nthat lots of people should have noticed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, Horn is the one person that the leaders of New Viron turn to when \nthings\nare clearly going south. He leads a war against the Inhumi on Green.\nThus his thoughts on the embryos that were given special genetic abilities \nin\n\"leadership\" becomes significant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The subtext I always took from this was that the primary reason they sent \nHorn was to get him out of the way, not because they had high hopes of him \nreturning successfully. And Horn knows he is being maneuvered, but has \nlittle choice in the matter. You could argue Horn as a religious leader, and \ncertainly he was influential. Although his influence extended mostly to \npeople who had never seen him, through his book - and it's implied that \nNettle was at least as responsible for the persuasive force of that book as \nhe was - but in any event the influence he wields is not the product of his \nface or \"command presence\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T13:44:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<26729413.1119542917310.JavaMail.root@wamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thematically, I consider it very important. Tussah=Typhon means that\nTussah;s and Pas's murder that happened at about the same are\nconnected so far as the story goes. Much has been made of Pas's\npossible intentions for Silk. It shows that Pas' original plan did not\ninclude Silk. Silk came later, after things went awry. If Silk is \ngenetically\nHorn's son, then the fact that the Rajan is simultaneously Silk, Horn, and\nHorn the Neighbor builds on the theme of rationalizing the Holy Trinity\nwhich Wolfe takes at many levels in The Short Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the kind of thing I was talking about, and I do think there's a very \nbig thematic problem here. You are suggesting that Wolfe is \"rationalizing\" \nthe Holy Trinity by deriving it from Typhon, who is on several levels *the \nDemiurge*. Perhaps you can justify this, I don't know, but any attempt to \nwork this into the theme changes the implications of the entire series from \ntop to bottom - and, as far as I can tell, not for the better. It seems like \nyou'd be left with nothing but a sort of Gnostic pamphlet piece.\n\nThis isn't the only way the clone angle can be explored, of course, but it \nseems like many of the Clone Interpretations that have been proposed tend to \ncenter the theme on this one aspect at the direct cost of turning other \naspects into mere farce, or simply discounting them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050623205935.76614.qmail@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T13:59:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050623141304.E66903-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don blushes and shrugs. You know, I have trouble with\nleft and right too. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Mark Millman wrote:\nDear Mr. Doggett,\n\nActually, what Mr. Lackey said, is that Quetzal\nknew -Tussah- and Horn. The statement was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have, genetically speaking,\nTyphon = Tussah = balding Horn.\nAnd no one noticed. Not Quetzal,\nwho knew the latter two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"latter two\" are Tussah and Horn. The char-\nacters that Mr. Lackey mentions as having seen\nTyphon are Hammerstone, Marble, and Kypris.\nThe full posting is in the archive at:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2005-June/001168.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is, so far, the only post by Mr. Lackey this\nmonth, so you can just search on his name to\nfind it.\n\nI hope this provides the desired clarification.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Thu, 23 Jun 2005, don doggett wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Chris wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Quetzal knew Pas, the same\nas any other augur in the\nWhorl. And given Typhon's\npreoccupation with his\nface, it is assumed that\nhe would *not* have given\nPas a different face than\nhimself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ok, but Roy didn't say Pas, he said\nTyphon. Not to be nitpicky but I\nthink that requires clarification,\nespecially with this series. It also\nkeeps Roy from being misquoted later.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<21022547.1119562450020.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T14:34:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<20050623205935.76614.qmail@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though I try to remain agnostic about the whole clone thing, I might as well \nthrow in some things that I think are problematic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool.\n\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I settled on this \"unnecessary plot complication\" only after\nWolfe himself shut every other door. Wolfe was asked explicitly about \nSilk's \"ancestry\" and he said Silk was \"the son of the Calde and his\nmistress\".\nUnless one argues that Silk is the natural biological son of Tussah and his\nmistress (which is not explicitly denied in the text but is still \nuntenable) then we are left to consider who that Calde in Silk's ancestry is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find the application of the term \"Calde\" to Typhon to be very out of place \nhere...the natural implication one would normally draw is that Wolfe is \nreferring to Tussah...If you assume that Wolfe is being conversationally perverse here..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think Wolfe was being \"conversationally perverse\" as you put it. The questioner\nasked about Silk's ancestry. He is taking it as a given that Silk is not the natural son\nof Tussah. Wolfe acts dumb...he answers the question but with a major misdirection.\nI *was* stunned by this answer since at first glance it seemed be saying Silk was\nTussah's natural born son. I recall that Don Doggett, on reading this response was\ninitially prepared to scrap every all his clone theories and start from scratch...after\nall, if the text could be misread to this extent....\n\nBut Calde' is not an unworkable appellation for Typhon. A calde' is a combination\nexecutive officer and sole judge. That is an accurate designation for any dictator.\nOriginally the word was applied to an official over a town, but by the same token an\nonager is a half-wild ass used for carrying small loads, not a what-ever-it-is that was\nin The Book of the New Sun. Wolfe takes words and uses them by their function, not\ntheir strict definition (at least in the Sun Cycle)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you assume that Wolfe is being conversationally \nperverse here, then the term \"Calde\" could be applied to almost anyone. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. There's no evidence that Whorl technology was capable of producing NEW special\nembryos available for implantation. But they did have the technology to implant the\nembryos after the fact. If Silk was one of those and it is clear he was, then he came\nfrom Urth. Now, 1) we know Silk is not naturally conceived, that he was not the natural\nson of Calde' Tussah, 2) there is another \"calde'\" in the story who has a mistress\nwho takes special note of Silk (and there are no others), and 3) by virtue of becoming Calde', Silk has identified\nhimself as Tussah's \"son not of my body\".\n\nThere are LOTS of ways to *possibly* resolve this, but I can think of only one way to\ntake Wolfe's answer as anything approaching the truth *and* put all the other pieces\ntogether:\n\nSilk was Tussah's son because Tussah was Typhon's clone. But he was a son\n\"not of Tussah's body\".\n\nI can't make it work any other way. Prior to this, to have Silk meet\nTussah in the Mainframe struck me as seriously unbelievable. He had never\neven met Silk. It was as unlikely (or more so) as if Blood were to seek\nMucor's company after death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the life of me, though, I can't think of what purpose it might serve for \nTyphon to do this. It has been suggested that it was a body that Typhon was \nmeant to inhabit, but that doesn't really work - why not clone himself and \npossess that body, rather than his son?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know whether Typhon intended Pas to inhabit a body when the\ncolonists disembarked. I kind of doubt it since why would he tinker with\nthe embryos to give them added leadership abilities if he was only going\nto possess a host with a simulation of himself? He *did* clone himself.\nWhen the Whorl came in to orbit around their destination, TUSSAH was in\ncharge. But the Echidna & Co rubbed out Pas and the Ayuntamiento rubbed\nout Tussah. Tussah planned for Silk to rule after him, because Silk was\ngenetically designed to lead...as Tussah was.\n\nWhy use himself and his family and court to make cloned embryos? Why not?\nYou have to get the clones from somewhere, I'm sure he thought he had the\nbest of the best starting material all around him. It seems obvious to me that\nhe would take the genetic material from close by.\n\nI'm speculating here. I didn't decide that Tussah should be a clone so I could\njustify having clones wander around the Whorl. I attempted to work out the\nmysteries in the text and found that was the only solution left to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if he were going for optimization, why go with a natural biological pairing\ninstead of a genetically engineered alternative? On the other hand if the embryo\nis supposed to be raised as an actual son for Pas in the new world, he would make\na dangerous potential rival." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Typhon was concerned about that. The question was whether the\ncolonies would survive at all. They wouldn't have the technology to return to Urth\nor to set up rival empires. He DID genetically engineer leaders for the colonies.\nThat's clear from the text in The Short Sun. He was trying to give them the best\nchance for survival. Any clones leading the colony in the first years would be dead\nbefore they could cause Urth any trouble. And they weren't supposed to be milling\naround normal people on the Whorl. Their purpose was to descend with the colonists.\nThings went wrong. The embryos leaked out on to the black market. The colonists\ndid not disembark when they were supposed to. So you ended up with the\nembryos being implanted at various time under varying circumstances." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And who was that son? Why isn't he in the pantheon?\nWhy isn't he in the books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I direct you to the Book of the New Sun...the story of Spring Wind and Bird of the Woods" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not sure what you are getting at with this...The son could \nhave been born during the rebellion, and very possibly killed by Typhon's \nwife and her children before developing a personality extensive enough to be \nworth scanning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just saying that the children of Typhon and proto-Kypris *are* mentioned\nin the books. And yes, you are right, it is not necessary for them to be in the\npantheon but is it not unreasonable that they would be there. The text makes\nit clear that there are many lesser gods not mentioned in the LS/SS (Kypris\nis a lesser god herself). There are some that *are* mentioned such as \nHephaestus and Thyone's Son. If Kypris was scanned it is reasonable any\nchildren she had were alive at that time. If the child was anything but a\nbaby, or perhaps even then, it might well have been scanned. It would look\nno more like Silk than Scylla looked like her original. Maybe he *is* Thyone's Son." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would like to see the textual *purpose* for Horn being a \nclone of any kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same purpose for Rose having red hair or Kypris having blond hair\nwhile her original looked more like Hyacinth. It provides narrative depth.\nI've given thematic purposes for having Horn be a clone of Typhon.\nWhat sort of textual purpose would suffice? The SF New Age writers\nprovide the multiple viewpoints with limited knowledge to tell a story\nand leave reader to divine the gaps. They tell a story with a certain\namount of \"negative space\". This is just one more thing Wolfe has\nleft for the reader to find in that negative space. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those little frozen embryos were enormously expensive and not easy to come \nby, and Horn's family was not of any great wealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither was Silk's mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor is there any \nindication of who, if anyone, would give such an embryo to them to raise, or \nwhy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a very good point. In my opinion, the person was Quetzal and his\npurpose was as a backup plan in case neither Silk nor Awk succeeded in\nbringing about the Plan of Pas. That's my guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pas was a god with two heads, both with hair. Tussah was a bald middle-aged\nman. Horn was a teenager. Do you really think whatever simularities they\nhad in features were not ignorable?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later on, there should have then been a marked similarity between Horn \n(genetically Typhon) and Silk (genetically Typhon's son). This is something \nthat lots of people should have noticed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As the text states, there were very few people who knew Silk first hand...\ncertainly not for very long. Most of those who did, were still on the Whorl.\nWithout the two side-by-side, whose to compare them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, Horn is the one person that the leaders of New Viron turn to when \nthings are clearly going south. He leads a war against the Inhumi on\nGreen. Thus his thoughts on the embryos that were given special\ngenetic abilities in \"leadership\" becomes significant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The subtext I always took from this was that the primary reason they sent \nHorn was to get him out of the way, not because they had high hopes of him \nreturning successfully. And Horn knows he is being maneuvered, but has \nlittle choice in the matter. You could argue Horn as a religious leader, and \ncertainly he was influential. Although his influence extended mostly to \npeople who had never seen him, through his book - and it's implied that \nNettle was at least as responsible for the persuasive force of that book as \nhe was - but in any event the influence he wields is not the product of his \nface or \"command presence\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you might have said the same thing about Silk prior to the revolution.\nHorn was \"the leader of the boys at the palaestra\". He led a revolt against\nthe Inhumi on Green. Even if you are right that the leaders of Viron were\ntrying to get rid of him, what does that say? A hermited paper manufacturer\nis a threat to them? \n\nIf it is The Book of Silk that is the danger, then they should have sent Nettle too.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20402465.1119564156555.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T15:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<21022547.1119562450020.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thematically, I consider it very important. Tussah=Typhon means that\nTussah;s and Pas's murder that happened at about the same are\nconnected so far as the story goes. Much has been made of Pas's\npossible intentions for Silk. It shows that Pas' original plan did not\ninclude Silk. Silk came later, after things went awry. If Silk is \ngenetically\nHorn's son, then the fact that the Rajan is simultaneously Silk, Horn, and\nHorn the Neighbor builds on the theme of rationalizing the Holy Trinity\nwhich Wolfe takes at many levels in The Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the kind of thing I was talking about, and I do think there's a very \nbig thematic problem here. You are suggesting that Wolfe is \"rationalizing\" \nthe Holy Trinity by deriving it from Typhon, who is on several levels *the \nDemiurge*. Perhaps you can justify this, I don't know, but any attempt to \nwork this into the theme changes the implications of the entire series from \ntop to bottom - and, as far as I can tell, not for the better. It seems like \nyou'd be left with nothing but a sort of Gnostic pamphlet piece." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This isn't the only way the clone angle can be explored, of course, but it \nseems like many of the Clone Interpretations that have been proposed tend to \ncenter the theme on this one aspect at the direct cost of turning other \naspects into mere farce, or simply discounting them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't care if you completely deny there are *any* clones in the entire Sun\nCycle, it is still extremely arguable (but I'm not arguing it) that the books are\nto Gnosticsm what The Chronicles of Narnia are to Orthodox Christianity. That's\njust a fact, and discounting clones doesn't solve it. You still have a Gnostic\npamphlet.\n\nSeverian is named after a 2nd century Gnostic sect. Silk is an \"enlightened\"\nman who becomes divine. Pas is an evil maker of an evil world who is\nundermined by the original \"good god\" from outside it. I would really like get\nWolfe to provide a definitive answer on this.\n\nBut that is totally aside from Wolfe's rationalization of the Trinity....which he\ndoes for example in his discussion regarding Thyone's Son in RTTW...\nhe is showing through the Rajan that it is possible...theoretically...for a\nperson to be three persons yet one person. He's not saying that's how God\n*is*. He's only showing that it is not unreasonable.\n\nWolfe has said that originally The Long Sun was about a \"good man in a bad\nreligion\". Perhaps Wolfe is showing that you can't savage the knowledge of\nthe true God so much that he can't reach people's hearts. That, as they say,\nwhen you get far enough away you are on your way back home. A demon\nwho imitates a god will be transformed into that god. So the more evil Pas is,\nthe better he exemplifies Wolfe point.\n\nHe's also clearly interested in mythical divine triads. Robert Graves made\nmuch of the female ones in \"The White Goddess\" (which Wolfe illustrates\nin the term \"trivigaunte\" and in the three sibyls) but there are plenty of\nimportant male triads as well in the mythologies of Greece, Scandinavia,\nSyria, etc. \n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705062315311f5456be@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T15:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/23/05, Chris wrote:\nIf Silk is genetically\nHorn's son, then the fact that the Rajan is simultaneously Silk, Horn, \nand Horn the Neighbor builds on the theme of rationalizing the Holy \nTrinity which Wolfe takes at many levels in The Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the kind of thing I was talking about, and I do think there's a very\nbig thematic problem here. You are suggesting that Wolfe is \n\"rationalizing\" the Holy Trinity by deriving it from Typhon, who is on \nseveral levels *the Demiurge*. Perhaps you can justify this, I don't \nknow, but any attempt to work this into the theme changes the \nimplications of the entire series from top to bottom - and, as far as I can \ntell, not for the better. It seems like you'd be left with nothing but a sort\nof Gnostic pamphlet piece." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm.\n\nI think that the Trinity theme is there, with or without the cloning\naspect: but I think it isn't about \"rationalizing\" at all. I think that \nthe Whorl, as a Gnostic parody of the true Creation, has its own\nparody of the Trinity....\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T16:56:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705062315311f5456be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with both you and Crush that there is a Gnostic element *there* \nregardless - that's the reason I find the possible relation to the Trinity \nto be problematic. A \"parody\" of the Trinity suggests a cosmological \nframework that's something like this (this is a rough, quick sketch so \nplease don't kill me):\n\nYou have the Outsider standing \"outside\" from on high, and the Demiurge in \ncontrol. The Trinity then springs from the Demiurge, but the Trinity is \nsubverted from the Demiurge's purpose by the Outsider, thus becoming a \ngenuine instrument for good. If you take this *seriously* you're drawn to \nthe inference that the Gnostic elements in this book are an intended \nparallel to real cosmological principles, including a strongly heretical (to \nCatholic orthodoxy) suggestion of the Demiurge somehow standing necessarily \nin between the relation of man and God.\n\nThe difference thematically is in what role the Gnostic elements are \nsupposed to play in the story. On a \"standard\" or \"naive\" reading you can \nplace them as Typhon's attempt to have his way - but the Gnostic structure \nis overturned by the Creator and, in effect, cancelled out. Going the extra \nstep and putting forward a Trinity which springs from the demiurge creates a \nstronger (and different) symbolic connection with theology and the story \nbegins to *mean* something different, in a way that legitimizes at least \nsome important aspects of that Gnostic structure.\n\nre: the \"rationalizing\" Crush was talking about, as a simple device of \nshowing how a 3-in-1 nature can work it may actually be somewhat \ninoffensive, but the minute you make that device central you call up these \nsymbolic connections - which I can't help but think Wolfe would have wanted \nto avoid, even if he is not exactly the Voice of Orthodoxy.\n\n\nDan'l said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm.\n\nI think that the Trinity theme is there, with or without the cloning\naspect: but I think it isn't about \"rationalizing\" at all. I think that\nthe Whorl, as a Gnostic parody of the true Creation, has its own\nparody of the Trinity....\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506231736538f420c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-23T17:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A \"parody\" of the Trinity suggests a cosmological\nframework that's something like this (this is a rough, quick sketch so\nplease don't kill me):\n\nYou have the Outsider standing \"outside\" from on high, and the \nDemiurge in control. The Trinity then springs from the Demiurge,\nbut the Trinity is subverted from the Demiurge's purpose by the\nOutsider, thus becoming a genuine instrument for good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm ... not really what I had in mind.\n\nWhat I'm saying (and have been saying for a couple of years\nnow) is that the _Whorl_ itself is a miniature Gnostic Kosmos,\nwith Pas/Typhon as the Demiurge who creates it and the\nOutsider as the True God. Silk's \"enlightenment\" - for which \nI have no proper name in terms of the \"orthodox\" true \nCreation; perhaps it might be likened to a moment of \nprophetic vision? - is, within the context of this miniature \nKosmos, a moment of pure Gnosis. In pretending to be a \nwhole and self-contained universe, the Whorl is thus a \nparody of the true Creation. \n\nBecause the Outsider is the True God of this Gnostic\nparody Kosmos, but also and more basically the God \nof Christianity, the Outsider is able to bend the false \ngods of the _Whorl_ to (ultimately) serve His ends. At\none point Silk observes that demons and other entities \nwho pretend to be gods \"become\" them - that is, they \nall tend toward Outsider-ish-ness - they are subsumed \nultimately into His design (rather like Melkor and the\nMusic of Eru Iluvatar). \n\nI'm still not saying this very well. I have a clear vision of\nwhat I'm saying but it's hard to put into words. I need\nto draw pictures or something." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you take this *seriously* you're drawn to the inference\nthat the Gnostic elements in this book are an intended\nparallel to real cosmological principles, including a\nstrongly heretical (to Catholic orthodoxy) suggestion\nof the Demiurge somehow standing necessarily in\nbetween the relation of man and God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is exactly what I am suggesting, with the caveat\nthat \"the Demiurge\" is not the metaphysical being of \nold Gnosticism but Pas/Typhon. He does his best to\nmake the inhabitants of the Whorl think he is the Father\nGod, the Creator, and to make them forget the old\nreligions - but he can do no better for a Scripture than\ncreate a patchwork of the Bible, Marcus Aurelius, and\nGod knows what all else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The difference thematically is in what role the Gnostic\nelements are supposed to play in the story. On a\n\"standard\" or \"naive\" reading you can place them as\nTyphon's attempt to have his way - but the Gnostic structure\nis overturned by the Creator and, in effect, cancelled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what sense is this naive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Going the extra step and putting forward a Trinity which\nsprings from the demiurge creates stronger (and different)\nsymbolic connection with theology and the story begins to\n*mean* something different, in a way that legitimizes at least\nsome important aspects of that Gnostic structure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I was thinking was rather more orthodox: as Pas tries \nto replace (or displace) the Outsider as God, he will naturally\n(and perhaps not knowingly) tend to take on more and more\nseeming aspects of Outsider-ness, and ultimately a parody \nTrinity will be the result. I don't really see Tussah as part of it\nthough... \n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c57886$2d392e00$703ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-23T23:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705062315311f5456be@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nI hope this provides the desired clarification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Millman,\n\nThank you for saving me the trouble. I only wish more people read so\ncarefully.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050624092418.95754.qmail@web54209.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2005-06-24T02:24:20+00:00", "subject": "SV: Re: (urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506231736538f420c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before the old Gnostic argument cycles through again,\nI'd just like to flag the discovery of the secular\nnature of Silks enlightenment made by Marc Aramini\nalmost two years ago (10Oct2003) but not really\ndiscussed on the list.\n\nThis makes spurious the easy assumption (which I had\nalso made) that the Outsider is the True (Christian)\nGod breaking into the closed Whorl to directly\nenlighten Silk on the court.\n\nIf God takes a hand in LS (or SS) then He is massively\nindirect. As Dan (and Silk) says, it can only then be\nan assumption that the intentions of Tyhpon and\nKypris, in giving such a cyberpunky message to Silk,\nand the actions of the other \"demons and false gods\",\nin some way accord with His wishes. Which is another\nway to say \"God is the Universe\".\n\nnastler\n\n--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I'm saying (and have been saying for a couple\nof years\nnow) is that the _Whorl_ itself is a miniature\nGnostic Kosmos,\nwith Pas/Typhon as the Demiurge who creates it and\nthe\nOutsider as the True God. Silk's \"enlightenment\" -\nfor which \nI have no proper name in terms of the \"orthodox\"\ntrue \nCreation; perhaps it might be likened to a moment of\n\nprophetic vision? - is, within the context of this\nminiature \nKosmos, a moment of pure Gnosis. In pretending to be\na \nwhole and self-contained universe, the Whorl is thus\na \nparody of the true Creation. \n\nBecause the Outsider is the True God of this Gnostic\nparody Kosmos, but also and more basically the God \nof Christianity, the Outsider is able to bend the\nfalse \ngods of the _Whorl_ to (ultimately) serve His ends.\nAt\none point Silk observes that demons and other\nentities \nwho pretend to be gods \"become\" them - that is, they\n\nall tend toward Outsider-ish-ness - they are\nsubsumed \nultimately into His design (rather like Melkor and\nthe\nMusic of Eru Iluvatar). " } ] }, { "message_id": "<12930047.1119618577620.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T06:11:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506231736538f420c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with both you and Crush that there is a Gnostic element *there* \nregardless - that's the reason I find the possible relation to the Trinity \nto be problematic. A \"parody\" of the Trinity suggests a cosmological \nframework that's something like this ....\n[Chris gives a decent sketch of The Long Sun as an allegory for Gnosticsm]\n\nre: the \"rationalizing\" Crush was talking about, as a simple device of \nshowing how a 3-in-1 nature can work it may actually be somewhat \ninoffensive, but the minute you make that device central you call up these \nsymbolic connections - which I can't help but think Wolfe would have wanted \nto avoid, even if he is not exactly the Voice of Orthodoxy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Wolfe is writing an allegory. He's playing with many different ideas\nin many ways often at the same time. He's cooking a multiple course meal\ntossing in different flavors that kick in at different times amd ways. This story,\nlike all his novels, overlays certain symbols and concepts that were adopted as \ncentral to Gnosticism but were also seen as CONFIRMATIONS of the deity of\nJesus of Nazareth by Christian mythopoetics like C.S. Lewis. So there's bound\nbe some potential confusion here.\n\nEven if the Whorl is a miniture Gnostic universe, Silk, Horn, and Horn! become\nthe Rajan mostly OUTSIDE it. If Wolfe were *merely* trying to create a Gnostic\nset-piece then the Rajan Trinity confuses or devastates it. Horn, a clone of Typhon,\nis *ironically* the FATHER the Trinity. But he is neither Typhon himself nor Pas. He\nwas reared in a vastly different environment than Typhon. Horn! the Neighbor is the\nSpirit. They become 3-1 on the Whorl when they join with the Son (Silk). Fine for our\nGnostic story, although Silk has already been enlighten and so this event is out of\norder. But THEN the Rajan preaches the will of Pas to the Whorl!!! That's hardly the\nGnostic story. \n\nIf Wolfe were determined to avoid the chance of people thinking he was endorsing the\nGnosticsm then he should have avoided making Silk so appealing or naming his hero\nin The New Sun after a Gnostic sect.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c578f8$c64413e0$1a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T13:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c57886$2d392e00$703ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nWell, I consider it self-evident that Typhon's scan occurred after he got\nhis\nnew body, since Pas has two heads. I don't have my books, but I seem to\nrecall a suggestion that Typhon had *just* got Piaton's body when he met\nthe Conciliator. That would place the Whorl's launch just before or very\nsoon\nafter his confrontation with the Concilliator. In that case, the scan must\nhave\noccurred as the capstone to the Whorl project before launching. Since I say\nthe taking of Piaton's body was punishment for his taking part in the\nrebellion\nwith his siblings and mother, there is the very real possibility that\nTyphon had\nhimself rescanned with this new body after executing his family. Would\nTyphon\nhave permitted his rebellious family to be a worshiped pantheon on the\nWhorl\nafter they had betrayed him? Well, look how their are depicted and you tell\nme.\nPas and Kypris depicted naturalistically. The rest of his family are\nmonsters.\nTyphon might have had himself scanned again simply because he wanted Pas to\nbe knowledgible of his family's potential treachery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've pointed this out before, though it keeps being ignored -- perhaps\nbecause it plays hell with all sorts of beloved theories, but the textual\nfact of the matter is that Typhon's children were exactly that -- little\nchildren -- at the time they were scanned for the _Whorl_. Cilinia (Scylla),\nEchidna's firstborn, was close to the age of puberty:\n\n\"I saw the bird was really a girl old enough to take care of other sprats\nbut not old enough to get married.\" \"[. . .] a big girl that would be a\nwoman in another year.\" (RTTW, 347)\n\nAnd:\n\n\"'I died young. It can't have been long after I was scanned for the\n_Whorl_.'\" (392)\n\nHer siblings were all younger; the youngest could not have been much more\nthan six years old when scanned. The idea that seven little kids took part\nin any meaningful way in a conspiracy against their father is laughable on\nthe face of it, for the same reason I laugh when I see one of our kittens in\nmock-attack mode take a swipe at one of our old toms.\n\nI don't know if it's possible for a computer persona to \"grow up\" over the\nyears, and grievances arise, but if it happened to Typhon's children, it\nhappened on the _Whorl_, not Urth. The rebellion against the father can have\ntaken place only on the _Whorl_, not Urth, in so far as the textually-given\ninsurrection influenced events in the LS and SS books. The ship was gone\nbefore the children even grew up.\n\nAs for the notion that Piaton was/is Typhon's son . . . my blood pressure is\nmuch too high as it is. A moment's reflection on the above textual facts\nshould suffice to show that it couldn't have happened as Crush theorized.\nAnd if that's not enough, just read chapter XXV of SWORD, where it tells how\nand why Piaton was chosen. Piaton was a slave chosen, after testing, for his\nphysical strength. That's all there was to it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T14:22:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's skin color", "in_reply_to": "<21022547.1119562450020.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do think Wolfe was being \"conversationally perverse\" as you put it. The \nquestioner\nasked about Silk's ancestry. He is taking it as a given that Silk is not \nthe natural son\nof Tussah. Wolfe acts dumb...he answers the question but with a major \nmisdirection.\nI *was* stunned by this answer since at first glance it seemed be saying \nSilk was\nTussah's natural born son. I recall that Don Doggett, on reading this \nresponse was\ninitially prepared to scrap every all his clone theories and start from \nscratch...after\nall, if the text could be misread to this extent....\n\nBut Calde' is not an unworkable appellation for Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's unworkable, I just think it's significantly awkward. And \nwhen you start trying to divine his intention here, you can go a number of \nways. Just as one example, does he mean the \"Calde\" (in its non-obvious \nsense) is Silk's father, or does he mean the Calde (Tussah) is his \"father\" \n(in a figurative sense - even given the question was about Silk's \n\"ancestry\", even this can be taken figuratively). I'm sure other \ninterpretations are possible, and I'm skeptical of all of them - I don't \nthink this quotation does much to back up any theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know whether Typhon intended Pas to inhabit a body when the\ncolonists disembarked. I kind of doubt it since why would he tinker with\nthe embryos to give them added leadership abilities if he was only going\nto possess a host with a simulation of himself? He *did* clone himself.\nWhen the Whorl came in to orbit around their destination, TUSSAH was in\ncharge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tussah was in charge of one city, among how many? Hundreds? I don't think \nthis provides any special reason to believe that Tussah is a clone of \nTyphon. And I don't see how it would be especially advantageous to have a \nclone of Typhon \"in charge\" when the time came - sure, such a clone might be \ngenetically predisposed to successful leadership, but then *anyone who \ngained and held that post* would likely be predisposed to successful \nleadership. And children don't always turn out the way you'd like them to, \neven if they have the \"right genes\" - unless of course Pas was going to \npossess Tussah when the time came, but you've already argued against that.\n\nHere I'd like to make a general comment that applies to things brought up in \nseveral different posts (and not specifically here) - we have to be careful \nnot to give Typhon too much credit for omniscience. What he did was a feat \nof social engineering on a massive scale; it's an inexact science, but all \nin all it seems to have worked fairly well. Still, the plan worked far from \nperfectly. Furthermore this kind of planning does *not* let you micro-plan \nevents at an individual level, nor would you want to go about long-term \nplanning on such a level. If you put your eggs in the basket of a single \nindividual, no matter what their genes, there are just too many \nunpredictable things that can happen to disrupt your planned development." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nor is there any\nindication of who, if anyone, would give such an embryo to them to raise, \nor\nwhy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a very good point. In my opinion, the person was Quetzal and his\npurpose was as a backup plan in case neither Silk nor Awk succeeded in\nbringing about the Plan of Pas. That's my guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand this, for reasons somewhat connecting with what was said \nabove - it implies instrumental roles for specific individuals in \"the Plan \nof Pas\", sight unseen. Quetzal would then have to have known their roles \nsomething like 12 years in advance to get Horn in place. And since Pas had \nbeen out of commission for some time before that, Pas would have had to have \nplanned out the course of events before many of the key players were even \nborn.\n\nAside from that it seems impossible that Horn could possibly have filled in \nfor Silk, even if he had supergenes. If the plan was for him to be a backup, \nit would seem safer to seed him in place much earlier.\n\nThe alternative here seems to be either to say that cloneHorn was dropped \ninto place by some supreme agency capable of micro-managing individual lives \nin a city full of people just from their genes, or else Horn is there for \nsome other (possibly purely incidental) reason. I don't think the former is \nviable, and offhand I can't think of a convincing argument for the latter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Later on, there should have then been a marked similarity between Horn\n(genetically Typhon) and Silk (genetically Typhon's son). This is \nsomething\nthat lots of people should have noticed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As the text states, there were very few people who knew Silk first hand...\ncertainly not for very long. Most of those who did, were still on the \nWhorl.\nWithout the two side-by-side, whose to compare them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots of people in New Viron knew Horn first hand. And they get to see Silk's \nbody when Silkhorn returns to New Viron. I do not think Silk was so old that \na family resemblance would have been that impossible to discern. Especially \nin a family that striking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you might have said the same thing about Silk prior to the \nrevolution.\nHorn was \"the leader of the boys at the palaestra\". He led a revolt against\nthe Inhumi on Green. Even if you are right that the leaders of Viron were\ntrying to get rid of him, what does that say? A hermited paper manufacturer\nis a threat to them?\n\nIf it is The Book of Silk that is the danger, then they should have sent \nNettle too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are subtleties in play which I only loosely grasp, but they wouldn't \nhave sent Nettle because they don't want to lose their ability to \nmanufacture paper. Besides which with Horn gone, Nettle presumably falls \ninto line out of a keen awareness of how vulnerable she and her family are. \nThey want to maneuver it so that Horn's departure is voluntary, to avoid \ncreating a martyr. By making the pretext a search for Silk - which they \npresume to be more or less impossible - Horn can go (in which case they can \nlater scorn him as a failed prophet) or he can stay (in which case he has \nfailed to put his money where his mouth is). Either way, regardless of \nNettle they can use this to try to discredit the *Book*, and the Book is \nmore of a threat to them than Horn and Nettle off on their little island." } ] }, { "message_id": "<681737833.20050625213340@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanis³aw Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2005-06-25T12:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506231736538f420c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Friday, June 24, 2005, 2:36:51 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\n ....\n\nDlDO> Ummmm ... not really what I had in mind.\n\nDlDO> What I'm saying (and have been saying for a couple of years\nDlDO> now) is that the _Whorl_ itself is a miniature Gnostic Kosmos,\nDlDO> with Pas/Typhon as the Demiurge who creates it and the\nDlDO> Outsider as the True God. Silk's \"enlightenment\" - for which \nDlDO> I have no proper name in terms of the \"orthodox\" true \nDlDO> Creation; perhaps it might be likened to a moment of \nDlDO> prophetic vision? - is, within the context of this miniature \nDlDO> Kosmos, a moment of pure Gnosis. In pretending to be a \nDlDO> whole and self-contained universe, the Whorl is thus a \nDlDO> parody of the true Creation. \n\nDlDO> Because the Outsider is the True God of this Gnostic\nDlDO> parody Kosmos, but also and more basically the God \nDlDO> of Christianity, the Outsider is able to bend the false \nDlDO> gods of the _Whorl_ to (ultimately) serve His ends. At\nDlDO> one point Silk observes that demons and other entities \nDlDO> who pretend to be gods \"become\" them - that is, they \nDlDO> all tend toward Outsider-ish-ness - they are subsumed \nDlDO> ultimately into His design (rather like Melkor and the\nDlDO> Music of Eru Iluvatar). \n\nDlDO> I'm still not saying this very well. I have a clear vision of\nDlDO> what I'm saying but it's hard to put into words. I need\nDlDO> to draw pictures or something.\n\n....\n\nDlDO> --Dan'l\n\nYes. One of constant topics of Wolfe is that we became something by\nacting like it.\n\nAnd something not quite on topic, but, I think, interesting. In \"When\nI was Ming the Merciless\" Wolfe alludes to a passage from \"City of\nGod\" of St Augustine. The most striking fragment of that passage are:\n\n\"This Egyptian, however, says that there are some gods made by the\nsupreme God, and some made by men. .. he asserts that visible and\ntangible images are, as it were, only the bodies of the gods, and that\nthere dwell in them certain spirits, which have been invited to come\ninto them, and which have power to inflict harm, or to fulfil the\ndesires of those by whom divine honors and services are rendered to\nthem.\"\n\n\"Dost thou not know, O AEsculapius, that Egypt is an image of heaven,\nor, more truly, a translation and descent of all things which are\nordered and transacted there, that it is, in truth, if we may say so,\nto be the temple of the whole world?\"\n\nIt should also be noted that for Gnostics Egypt was the symbol of the\nfalse world of matter, created by Demiurg, in which we live. So, I\nthink that there can be no doubt that Whorl is symbolically Egypt, and\nleaving the Whorl is the Exodus.\n\n\n\nGene Wolfe \"When I was Ming the Merciless\"\n\n\"He had a theory-I don't know whether he believed it himself. I\ndidn't, but still. . . . There was something in it. Do you understand\nwhat I mean? It wasn't true; but still. . . .\n\n\"All right, here's what he thought. Or anyway, what he said he\nthought. That there are things we don't know about that live in the\nworld with us-things in another plane of reality. And when you make\nsomething like that, it comes- one of them comes. It shapes itself to\nfit your image of it, becoming the real Spirit of the Yellows. Anyway,\nwhen we had the torchlight processions, sometimes you might think you\ncould see it move. It was just the flickering light, of course, and\nthe fact that because it was so tall the face was illuminated from the\nbottom. Any face will look strange when you light it from below, I\nsuppose. We caught rats and pigeons when we built it and put them\ninside, so it would make strange sounds; some of them must have lived\na long time.\n\n\"No, I don't know what happened to it, and I don't care. You can't\nkill the thing, the Spirit of the Yellows. Not unless you kill all of\nus, and you won't do that. We'll be free someday. How could we forget?\nThe experiment was the greatest thing in our lives. At night, before\nwe had won, we used to sit around the fire-outside, the buildings were\ntoo dangerous then-and talk. You've never done that. You weren't\nthere.\n\n\nSt Augustine \"City of God\"\n\n\n http://ccel.org/fathers/NPNF1-02/Augustine/cog/t45.htm#t45.htm.0\n\n\n\" The Egyptian Hermes, whom they call Trismegistus, had a different\nopinion concerning those demons. Apuleius, indeed, denies that they\nare gods; but when he says that they hold a middle place between the\ngods and men, so that they seem to be necessary for men as mediators\nbetween them and the gods, he does not distinguish between the\nworship due to them and the religious homage due to the supernal\ngods. This Egyptian, however, says that there are some gods made by\nthe supreme God, and some made by men. Any one who hears this, as I\nhave stated it, no doubt supposes that it has reference to images,\nbecause they are the works of the hands of men; but he asserts that\nvisible and tangible images are, as it were, only the bodies of the\ngods, and that there dwell in them certain spirits, which have been\ninvited to come into them, and which have power to inflict harm, or\nto fulfil the desires of those by whom divine honors and services are\nrendered to them. To unite, therefore, by a certain art, those\ninvisible spirits to visible and material things, so as to make, as\nit were, animated bodies, dedicated and given up to those spirits who\ninhabit them,--this, he says, is to make gods, adding that men have\nreceived this great and wonderful power. I will give the words of\nthis Egyptian as they have been translated into our tongue:\n\n\"And, since we have undertaken to discourse concerning the\nrelationship and fellowship between men and the gods know, O\nAEsculapius, the power and strength of man. As the Lord and Father, or\nthat which is highest, even God, is the maker of the celestial gods,\nso man is the maker of the gods who are in the temples, content to\ndwell near to men.\"\n\nAnd a little after he says, \"Thus humanity, always mindful of its\nnature and origin, perseveres in the imitation of divinity; and as the\nLord and Father made eternal gods, that they should be like Himself,\nso humanity fashioned its own gods according to the likeness of its\nown countenance.\"\n\nWhen this AEsculapius, to whom especially he was speaking, had\nanswered him, and had said, \"Dost thou mean the statues, O\nTrismegistus?\n\n\"--\" Yes, the statues,\" replied he, \"however unbelieving thou art, O\nAEsculapius,--the statues, animated and full of sensation and spirit,\nand who do such great and wonderful things,--the statues prescient of\nfuture things, and foretelling them by lot, by prophet, by dreams, and\nmany other things, who bring diseases on men and cure them again,\ngiving them joy or sorrow according to their merits. Dost thou not\nknow, O AEsculapius, that Egypt is an image of heaven, or, more truly,\na translation and descent of all things which are ordered and\ntransacted there, that it is, in truth, if we may say so, to be the\ntemple of the whole world? And yet, as it becomes the prudent man to\nknow all things beforehand, ye ought not to be ignorant of this, that\nthere is a time coming when it shall appear that the Egyptians have\nall in vain, with pious mind, and with most scrupulous diligence,\nwaited on the divinity, and when all their holy worship shall come to\nnought, and be found to be in vain.\"\n\nHermes then follows out at great length the statements of this\npassage, in which he seems to predict the present time, in which the\nChristian religion is overthrowing all lying figments with a vehemence\nand liberty proportioned to its superior truth and holiness, in order\nthat the grace of the true Saviour may deliver men from those gods\nwhich man has made, and subject them to that God by whom man was made.\nBut when Hermes predicts these things, he speaks as one who is a\nfriend to these same mockeries of demons, and does not clearly express\nthe name of Christ. On the contrary, he deplores, as if it had already\ntaken place, the future abolition of those things by the observance of\nwhich there was maintained in Egypt a resemblance of heaven,--he bears\nwitness to Christianity by a kind of mournful prophecy. \"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Stanislaus Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nDziewczyny z Warszawy... >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1894" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T15:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Send in the Clones", "in_reply_to": "<12930047.1119618577620.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if the Whorl is a miniture Gnostic universe, Silk, Horn, and Horn! \nbecome\nthe Rajan mostly OUTSIDE it. If Wolfe were *merely* trying to create a \nGnostic\nset-piece then the Rajan Trinity confuses or devastates it. Horn, a clone \nof Typhon,\nis *ironically* the FATHER the Trinity. But he is neither Typhon himself \nnor Pas. He\nwas reared in a vastly different environment than Typhon. Horn! the \nNeighbor is the\nSpirit. They become 3-1 on the Whorl when they join with the Son (Silk). \nFine for our\nGnostic story, although Silk has already been enlighten and so this event \nis out of\norder. But THEN the Rajan preaches the will of Pas to the Whorl!!! That's \nhardly the\nGnostic story.\n\nIf Wolfe were determined to avoid the chance of people thinking he was \nendorsing the\nGnosticsm then he should have avoided making Silk so appealing or naming \nhis hero\nin The New Sun after a Gnostic sect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is some sense to this, of course, but the thematic interpretation \nstill *feels wrong* in a way that's difficult to put a definitive expression \nto. My intuitive reaction to this is that I could accept the proposed \ntrinity as ironic if it were a case of it being an *apparent* construction \nwhose meaning on further examination is called into question. In this case \nthe trinity analogy is not \"apparent\", not without considerable examination \nand scrutiny (more so even than the average effort that goes into reading \none of Wolfe's stories). So even if on *further* further examination it \nturns out not to be so, the reader's attitude on reaching the construction \nyou suggest is not one of surface appearances but one of having uncovered \ndeep secrets. So the ironic mode does not seem to drop into place entirely \nnaturally.\n\nI can't say that it's an invalid reading, if there is such a thing (I think \nthere is, but that's just me), but the constellation of meanings and \ninsights that can be drawn here all just seem fundamentally \"off\" to me; \nthey also don't seem to represent an improvement over the meanings that can \nbe drawn from the story without the Typhonic trinity. I'm aware that this \nseems a weak criticism, but at the same time I also think about half the \nmagic to textual interpretation consists in that intuitive feeling of \nrightness or wrongness that leads you to settle on a meaning, or else keep \nlooking." } ] } ] }