{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4450", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4450, "subject": "urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15", "messages": 2, "voices": 1, "first": "2005-06-16T23:16:42+00:00", "last": "2005-06-16T23:47:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050617061640.7437A23E92@sitemail.everyone.net>", "from": { "name": "turin", "address": "turin at hell.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T23:16:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "/*******************\nunless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of \nCyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors whoinfluenced \nthe authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave.\n*******************/\n\nThat is it exactly. I have no clue about the geneaology of scifi. I wouldn't put Wolfe in a cyberpunk anthology at all and he is a genuine \"literary\" author in the sense that he defies genre, of content not form, identification. \n\nI was simply wondering about the \"distance\" between Wolfe and cyberpunk and note the thematic similarities between Wolfe's work and the Ghost in the Shell films in particular. There is an article (one I happen to disagree with) in technology review entitled Against Transcendance and Bruce Sterling is quotes as saying that transcendance is what comes with the territory when writing science fiction.\n\nIt -does- seem to be a convention now, at least in the majority of the most of the important ones, but maybe I am biased towards transcendance, in fact, I am. I wonder when, in the literature, Sterling's statement becomes really applicable, because it seems to me that he is right.\n\nalso I'd very much like to hear what you think cyberpunk is and as I said its geneaology besides Snyder..... or merely what was said in the class. \n\nI don't know if anyone has written anything about the evolution of scifi in a taxonomical way.... I wonder what it would look like considering the volume of material and how recent the most interesting and important were written. Teaching a class on cyberpunk sounds very interesting though very specialized.\n\nEOT;" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050617064723.6970639B1@sitemail.everyone.net>", "from": { "name": "turin", "address": "turin at hell.com" }, "date": "2005-06-16T23:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15", "in_reply_to": "<20050617061640.7437A23E92@sitemail.everyone.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a second? David Snyder, I do not know. Is he this guy?\n\nDavid L Snyder\nProduction Designer, Art Director\nRoles\nProduction Designer:\n 2001 - The One\n 2000 - The Whole Nine Yards\n 1994 - Terminal Velocity\n 1993 - Demolition Man\n 1993 - Super Mario Bros.\n 1989 - Cold Dog Soup\n 1989 - She’s Out of Control\n 1988 - Moving\n 1987 - Summer School\n 1986 - Back to School\n 1985 - Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure\n 1984 - Racing with the Moon\n 1984 - The Woman in Red\n 1983 - Strange Brew\n 1982 - Starflight: The Plane That Couldn’t Land\nArt Director:\n 1986 - Armed and Dangerous\n\nOh and as for the acronyms for Ghost in the Shell\n(I was speaking of the Oshii films only.)\n\nGhost in the Shell (the Oshii film)\nGhost in the Shell II: Innocence (the second Oshii film)\nGhost in the Shell:Stand Alone Complex\n\nThe manga (comic) of Ghost in the Shell Shirow Masamune\n\nand Ac Adult Swim: Cartoon Network after hours.\n\n\n\n\nEOT;\n\n\n--- urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net wrote:\n\nFrom: urth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT)\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nSubject: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15\n\nSend urth-urth.net mailing list submissions to\n\turth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n\thttp://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n\turth-urth.net-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n\turth-urth.net-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of urth-urth.net digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14 (Jim Raylor)\n 2. 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Jim Raylor)\n 3. Re: \"There Are Doors\" (Dan)\n 4. Re: 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Dan'l Danehy-Oakes)\n 5. gene wolfe and cyberpunk (Dan)\n 6. RE: 5HC : Unbound Simulator (Chris)\n 7. Re: Re: \"There Are Doors\" (Adrian Robert)\n 8. Is this a BotNS illustration? (Hmpf MacSlow)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:50:46 +0100 (BST)\nFrom: Jim Raylor \nSubject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <20050616125046.77626.qmail at web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\n\nthapaguru wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt Wolfe is cyberpunk. CP mainly deals with a\nnear future or alternate reality where technology\nhas\ncreated a bizarre society or people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to mention where crime and drug use is so\nprominent, even among the \n\"heroes\" of the story....oh wait, have you read \"The\nFifth Head of \nCerberus?\" :)\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\nNear Future? Drugs, crime and general bizarre social\ndisintegration? I've just read Operation Ares - is\nthis the first Cyberpunk Novel or what?\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\nEnd of urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 14\n*********************************************\n\n\n\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\t\n___________________________________________________________ \nHow much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday \nsnaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:19:53 +0100 (BST)\nFrom: Jim Raylor \nSubject: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <20050616131953.77237.qmail at web25703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1\n\nMy own theories on the significance of M. Million\nbeing an unbound simulator are probably idiosyncratic.\n\nPlayfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million,\nmaking his full name Million Million Million etc.\n\nThis distinguishes him from a finite or bound\nsimulator.\nGiven infinite processing capacity could a machine\nsimulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet\nM. Million seems the most humane member of the\nhousehold...\n\nAlso pure word association makes me think of\nPrometheus.\n\nViewing 5HOC as a whodunnit, or more precisely a\nwhodunwhat, M Million should not be disregarded as a\nsuspect but I personally believe him innocent of\nmurder.\n\nSome aspects of this character (M. M.) are reminiscent\nof Ossipago\n\nhttp://prisoner143.50megs.com/\n\nI am not a number I am a free person!\n\n\n\t\n\t\n\t\t\n___________________________________________________________ \nYahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:58:22 -0500\nFrom: Dan \nSubject: (urth) Re: \"There Are Doors\"\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616075732.042328f0 at pop.vippn.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\n\n\n\nOn Jun 2, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Dan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oddly enough, i just finished reading There Are Doors this morning.\n\nIt was the best Philip K. Dick novel I ever read that was not written\nby Philip K. Dick.\n\nWhat of Mr. Klamm's relationship to Mr. Green? Same guy at two\ndifferent times or just two different blokes in the same circumstances\n(only one is beginiing his pursuit and the other nearing the end)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi,\n\nIt's been a while since I've read it so I won't answer this here, but,\nif you haven't already, read _The Castle_ by Kafka. It really deepens\nthe experience, and a lot of things will fall into different\nperspectives..\n\nenjoy,\nAdrian\n\n\nThanks Adrian. Though Kafka's been highly recommended before, I just never \ngot around to reading him. The new translation sounds interesting.\n\nI seem to be accumulating a list of prerequisites needed to expand my \nappreciation of Wolfe and reveal the subtleties of his works. It currently \nincludes learning Latin and getting a Master's in Classic Mythology!\n\n\nFrom: \"Chris\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <1f761737050616072153968585 at mail.gmail.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n\nOn 6/16/05, Jim Raylor wrote:\nPlayfully I will suggest the M. stands for M. Million,\nmaking his full name Million Million Million etc.\n\nUmmm... I think it's short for \"Monsieur.\"\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 5\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:56:40 -0500\nFrom: Dan \nSubject: (urth) gene wolfe and cyberpunk\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050616090253.04231eb0 at pop.vippn.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nAt 02:10 PM 6/13/2005, you wrote:\narguably the first cyberpunk novel, do androids dream of electric sheep is \na detective story and crime noire, and the ridley scott's film blade \nrunner had such an effect on japan that a subgenre of scifi anime has \nalways been cyberpunk whether as adventure or mystery.\n\n\n I think the art direction of David Snyder and his dark depiction of the \nfuture probably had more of an impact on anime than did Scott's ponderous \nhollywoodization of DADoES. Certainly GitS was influenced by Blade Runner's \ntheme. I'm looking forward to watching Stand Alone Complex, as soon as AS \nwill reair the first four episodes so I can see it in order.\n\n\ni am afraid my memory is going bad but someone just said that after \nreading (there are doors? which i have not read) that it was the best \nphilip k. dick book not written by philip k. dick.\n\nthat is the point i am trying to make exactly. if cyberpunk isn't looking \nat wolfe (and it might be though i have no evidence or thought about it \nmuch) it is looking to dick and i have not read enough dick, but i think, \nin his position, wolfe cannot looking at dick.\n\nNot sure I understand, but I recall reading in one of the interviews with \nGene that he had read (and I believe liked) PKD. In fact, I'm currently \nreading Free Live Free and there also seems to be somewhat of a PKD flavor, \nbut not as obvious as in There are Doors.\n\n\nin any case, wolfe is to some degree a cyberpunk author or cyberpunk is, \nif any genre can cliam to be, in the same tradition as wolfe.\n\nEOT;\n\nI agree to the degree that it's a testament to Wolfe's ability to stretch \nhis craft into other themes and genres. But I wouldn't pigeonhole him as a \ncyberpunk author or see how cyberpunk could claim him as one of their own.\nWhat little I recall of a class on the advent of cyberpunk left the \nimpression that every so often there's some type of backlash in the \nliterary world that spawns anew, reinvents or reintroduces a genre. The \ninstructors maintained that cyberpunk was one of these waves that actually \nhad it's roots in SF and fantasy shorts that appeared in '70's glossies. I \nthink that some of Wolfe's short stories may have a CP bent, such as The \nOther Dead Man or the HORARS of War but I'm not sure I would include them \nin a cyberpunk anthology unless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of \nCyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors who influenced \nthe authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave.\n\nDan\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 6\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:55:42 +0000\nFrom: \"Chris\" \nSubject: RE: (urth) 5HC : Unbound Simulator\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; format=flowed\n\nGiven infinite processing capacity could a machine\nsimulate humanity? It has been observed elsewhere thet\nM. Million seems the most humane member of the\nhousehold...\n\nMost sentimental, perhaps, although it's hard to get a handle on Five's \nsentimentality with the way he writes; such things may be systematically \nomitted, from embarrassment or whatever reason. It certainly does seem that \nFive has passions under the surface of what he writes, and he is certainly \ncapable of profound hatred.\n\nWith regard to simulating humanity, I would suggest that the question is \npurely grammatical. Can you pretend to think? Well, it would seem like if \nyou really went through the motions you would *be* thinking, not just \npretending. \"But couldn't I do everything else I normally do when thinking, \nbut not think?\" -- well, you could perhaps scrunch up your eyes and make a \nface without thinking (much), such that it would fool an outside observer. \nBut is scrunching up your eyes and making a face necessary to thinking at \nall - I mean, you are not pretending to *think*, you are just making faces, \nand making faces has nothing to do with thinking.\n\nSimilarly \"humanity\" - I assume we're not talking about the trivial \nbiological sense of the term - is not something that can be simulated. If we \ngrammatically allow that machine is the kind of thing which *can* simulate \nhumanity, then if it behaves in such and such a way it is not *simulating* \nhumanity, it is *being* human. And on the other hand if you assume that a \nmachine is not the kind of thing which can do that, then its behaving in \nsuch and such a way is not simulating humanity *or* being human, it is \nsimply a meaningless conjunction of circumstances.\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 7\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:01:44 -0400\nFrom: Adrian Robert \nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: \"There Are Doors\"\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed\n\nOn Jun 16, 2005, at 9:58 AM, Dan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Dan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Oddly enough, i just finished reading There Are Doors this morning.\n\nIt was the best Philip K. Dick novel I ever read that was not \nwritten\nby Philip K. Dick.\n\nWhat of Mr. Klamm's relationship to Mr. Green? Same guy at two\ndifferent times or just two different blokes in the same \ncircumstances\n(only one is beginiing his pursuit and the other nearing the end)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hi,\n\nIt's been a while since I've read it so I won't answer this here, but,\nif you haven't already, read _The Castle_ by Kafka. It really deepens\nthe experience, and a lot of things will fall into different\nperspectives..\n\nenjoy,\nAdrian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks Adrian. Though Kafka's been highly recommended before, I just \nnever got around to reading him. The new translation sounds \ninteresting.\n\nNew translation, hmm.. I just read part of it at Amazon:\n\n\nOld (Willa and Edwin Muir)\n----\nIt was late in the evening when K. arrived. The village was deep in \nsnow. The Castle hill was hidden, veiled in mist and darkness, nor was \nthere even a glimmer of light to show that a castle was there. On the \nwooden bridge leading from the main road to the village, K. stood for a \nlong time gazing into the illusory emptiness above him.\n\nNew (Mark Harman)\n----\nIt was late evening when K. arrived. The village lay under deep snow. \nThere was no sign of the Castle hill, fog and darkness surrounded it, \nnot even the faintest gleam of light suggested the large Castle. K. \nstood for a long time on the wooden bridge that leads from the main \nroad to the village, gazing upward into the seeming emptiness.\n\n\nI can't say I much care for the new one myself, but, more pertinently, \nthis sort of evident freedom of the translator to determine the whole \ntone of the text sometimes discourages one from reading translations at \nall! But short of learning German, you should definitely read several \npages of every translation you can find and pick the one that suits \nyourself, regardless of which is supposedly \"better\" according to \ncurrent fashion or anyone's opinion.\n\n(Especially when that opinion as in lauding the new translation speaks \nof preserving the \"author's intentions\", a ludicrous ideal, when the \nauthor was still editing (and writing!) the works when he died, and \nindeed deemed them so unfinished and unworthy as to request the \nmanuscripts all be burned immediately.)\n\nAnyway, your message talked me into scrounging up some Philip K. Dick \n(additional to DADOES), which at least won't have these problems..\n\n\nAdrian\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 8\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:08:15 +0200\nFrom: Hmpf MacSlow \nSubject: (urth) Is this a BotNS illustration?\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050616200223.03762390 at pop.gmx.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\n\nhttp://www.elevenland.com/amano/view.php3?picName=The+Claw+of+the+Conciliator&picImage=pic16.JPG\n\nWhat do you think? It doesn't really *look* like anything I remember from \nthe book... but why else call the picture 'The Claw of the Conciliator'? \nThe artist is Yoshitaka Amano, a renowned fantasy illustrator who \ncollaborated with Neil Gaiman on 'Sandman: The Dream Hunters'. He seems to \nlike doing random illustrations for fantasy stuff - there's some Elric \nillustrations on that website, too. Basically, high-calibre fan art. *g*\n\nAnyway... if that is supposed to be a Wolfe illustration, then what do you \nsuppose it's meant to be? Is this Severian? (Surely not!)\n\nHm.\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n---\n\"I don't get out much, so I read.\"\nPilot, Farscape \n\n\n\n------------------------------" } ] } ] }