{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4457", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4457, "subject": "GW and CP", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2005-06-21T10:20:50+00:00", "last": "2005-06-21T13:42:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050621092912.041c8940@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2005-06-21T10:20:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GW and CP", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:47 AM 6/17/2005, you wrote:\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 23:16:40 -0700 (PDT)\nFrom: turin \nSubject: (urth) Re: urth-urth.net Digest, Vol 10, Issue 15\nTo: urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net\nMessage-ID: <20050617061640.7437A23E92 at sitemail.everyone.net>\nContent-Type: text/plain\n\n/*******************\nunless it's titled The Tertiary Roots of\nCyberpunk: The stories that influenced the well-read authors whoinfluenced\nthe authors that rode the crest of the Cyberpunk wave.\n*******************/\n\nThat is it exactly. I have no clue about the geneaology of scifi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Off hand I'd say Wells, Verne and Shelley would be a good start. I think \nthat's what that class was attempting to do was reveal a similar parentage \nfor cyberpunk by tracing through a collection of works (numerous short \nstories and a few novels)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't put Wolfe in a cyberpunk anthology at all and he is a genuine \n\"literary\" author in the sense that he defies genre, of content not form, \nidentification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was simply wondering about the \"distance\" between Wolfe and cyberpunk \nand note the thematic similarities between Wolfe's work and the Ghost in \nthe Shell films in particular. There is an article (one I happen to \ndisagree with) in technology review entitled Against Transcendance and \nBruce Sterling is quotes as saying that transcendance is what comes with \nthe territory when writing science fiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I was being facetious on the book title. That was a good quote worth \nrepeating from \nhttp://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp?p=1:\n\n{When the science fiction writer and journalist Bruce Sterling was asked \nwhy so many science fiction novels ended with their heroes transcending \ntheir circumstances, abilities, or bodies, he was dismissive. \"It's just a \nriff,\" Sterling answered. \"The element of transcendence is just a feature \nof the SF genre, like feedback in rock music. People who take that stuff \nseriously end up turning into trolls....H. P. Lovecraft was a big fan of \nthat cosmic-type stuff. That may be okay for him, but from the outside what \nyou see is this pasty-faced guy eating canned hash in the dim corner of a \nrestaurant, hands trembly, and a gray film over his eyes.\" }\n\n(Though as an aside, I'm not sure Lovecraft really took that cosmic stuff \nseriously, as the correspondence of his I've read seemed to treat it rather \nplayfully.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It -does- seem to be a convention now, at least in the majority of the \nmost of the important ones, but maybe I am biased towards transcendance, \nin fact, I am. I wonder when, in the literature, Sterling's statement \nbecomes really applicable, because it seems to me that he is right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for a literary device, it's a way to show the main character growing and \nchanging.\nOne of the (few) stories I recall reading for that class was I Have No \nMouth And I Must Scream by Harlan Ellison. Which was a good introduction to \nthe idea of transcendence not necessarily being a good thing.\n\nFor some reason that article reminded me of The Long Sun Series when Dr. \nCrane reveals the true state of Loris' bio body. Truly one of the greatest \ncyberpunk moments ever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "also I'd very much like to hear what you think cyberpunk is" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How science and technology twists society and individuals and how \nindividuals seize them to twist back." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and as I said its geneaology besides Snyder..... or merely what was said \nin the class.I don't know if anyone has written anything about the \nevolution of scifi in a taxonomical way.... I wonder what it would look \nlike considering the volume of material and how recent the most \ninteresting and important were written. Teaching a class on cyberpunk \nsounds very interesting though very specialized.\n\nEOT;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, the cyberpunk class was actually a spinoff of a groundbreaking class \nfrom the previous semester that was taught by two instructors from two \ndifferent departments. It dealt with science in science fiction, but also \nfocused on cyberpunk and computer technology which inspired the cyberpunk \nclass.\n\nAlas, such a vast amount of water has passed beneath that bridge that it \nhas long since washed away. I don't really recall many details from the \nclasses other than there was a lot of reading, some heated classroom \ndiscussions and that we spent a lot of time trying to deconstruct the mass \nmedia pop culture hype that was already suffocating the genre. Both were \ngreat classes.\n\nDan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6.2.0.14.0.20050621200732.0344daa0@pop.gmx.net>", "from": { "name": "Hmpf MacSlow", "address": "hmpf1998 at gmx.net" }, "date": "2005-06-21T11:14:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GW and CP", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050621092912.041c8940@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, the cyberpunk class was actually a spinoff of a groundbreaking class \nfrom the previous semester that was taught by two instructors from two \ndifferent departments. It dealt with science in science fiction, but also \nfocused on cyberpunk and computer technology which inspired the cyberpunk \nclass.\n\nAlas, such a vast amount of water has passed beneath that bridge that it \nhas long since washed away. I don't really recall many details from the \nclasses other than there was a lot of reading, some heated classroom \ndiscussions and that we spent a lot of time trying to deconstruct the mass \nmedia pop culture hype that was already suffocating the genre. Both were \ngreat classes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me why I really need to find another university. We don't get \nany sf related classes here, and sf really is the main thing I want to \nstudy. It's not a popular subject in German universities' English \ndepartments, unfortunately.\n\nThen again, I can't afford to move to another city at the moment. But if I \never do a Ph.D. I'll have to find a uni that will accommodate work on sf.\n\nBy the way, @ whoever mentioned Ghost in the Shell: that movie I mentioned \na little while ago, Angel's Egg, is by the same director, and even more \n'Wolfean' than Ghost in the Shell. If anyone here saw it, I'd really like \nto know what you thought of it...\n\nHmpf\n\n\n\n\n\n---\n\"I don't get out much, so I read.\"\nPilot, Farscape " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9941593.1119386526099.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-21T13:42:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GW and CP", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.0.14.0.20050621200732.0344daa0@pop.gmx.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't put Wolfe in a cyberpunk anthology at all and he is a genuine \n\"literary\" author in the sense that he defies genre, of content not form, \nidentification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm....\n\nIt occurs to me that The Long Sun is a cyberpunk novel told from the perspective of one totally uncomprehensive of the virtual world he lives in (imagine \"The Matrix\" where Neo only understands learns what the Matrix is 3/4ths of the way into the movie). Quetzal and Crane are his guides into that world. In the end, he dominates that world by becoming the ruling virtual personality in it, and discovers that he himself is a genetically improved clone.\n\n~ Crush" } ] } ] }