{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4462", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4462, "subject": "Wolfe the closet Gnostic. (or, \"Gene I hardly gnew ye.\")", "messages": 27, "voices": 9, "first": "2005-06-24T14:33:12+00:00", "last": "2005-07-07T18:16:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<97fae70a9880dd35ac2526b868a0d3ff@ou.edu>", "from": { "name": "Kieran Mullen", "address": "kieran at ou.edu" }, "date": "2005-06-24T14:33:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe the closet Gnostic. (or, \"Gene I hardly gnew ye.\")", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Begin forwarded message:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe were determined to avoid the chance of people thinking he was \nendorsing the\nGnosticsm then he should have avoided making Silk so appealing or \nnaming his hero\nin The New Sun after a Gnostic sect.\n\n~ Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It is this sort of postmodern meta-analysis that I find most \nannoying.\n\n First, Gnostic is such a syncretic and malleable tradition that it \nis possible to read it into almost anything in which a powerful ruling \nfigure is overthrown by appealing to a more benign, more powerful \nfigure.\n\n Second, Severian's name was chosen 13 years before Silk was \ncreated. Do you think that when Wolfe set out to create a character \nthat people whose wardrobe fans would emulate at sci-fi cons, he \nintended to write a pro-Gnostic work over a decade later?\n\n Third, do you think Wolfe, the author of such works as \"The \nDetective of Dreams\" and \"Westwind,\" would write a pro-Gnostic set of \nnovels?\n\n Fourth, why should having an appealing hero make him necessarily \npro-Gnostic? Isn't Silk closer to Moses than to Christ?\n\n Fifth, name play gets a bit silly. Silk was common in New \nTestament times, and was called \"damask\", since it was manufactured in \nDamascus. No doubt by choosing the name \"Silk\", Wolfe was making an \nallusion to the role Syria plays in international terrorism.\n\n Sixth... Oh well. You get the point.\n\n Kieran Mullen" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T14:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<97fae70a9880dd35ac2526b868a0d3ff@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was about to playfully suggest as a universal rule that one should not \npostulate clones beyond necessity. (And it still seems like something of a \ngood idea, I must admit).\n\nBut then it occurred to me that maybe a proliferation of clones actually \n*reduces* the number of entities (by making some people the same as others), \nso maybe Occam would approve. On that note I devised the following theory: \neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon.\n\nWe know that Severian, as Conciliator, weaves back and forth through time \nand leads a number of lives (Apu Punchau, etc), sometimes going quite a ways \nback in history. This being the case, all things being equal his genes would \nso dominate the gene pool that it would lead to hopelessly inbred children \nand the degeneration of the human race. To prevent this the Hierogrammates \nimplemented a plan which replaced natural reproduction with technology \nsimilar to that used to resurrect Severian, but with a twist: it creates an \n*embryonic Severian* already in place in the womb. The embryo (and \nsubsequent human) is then manipulated through hormones to generate a variety \nof appearances as necessary, including development of male or female \nreproductive organs as needed. And this, by the way, is the capping point \nthat proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this theory is correct: people \non Urth *have* to be clones because they are *incapable* of reproducing \nnaturally - despite appearances they are all genetically male!\n\nThis also explains how there's always a new Severian-body around for the \nConciliator to pop into when he dies, no matter what place and time it \nhappens to be.\n\nThis explains trivially why there are so many clones on the Whorl. All of \nthe original passengers were clones of Severian. It's not that we have \nidentified too many clones, it is that we have noticed too few." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705062415104bec77ff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:10:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris --\n\nThe very best part of this theory is that it resolves the Problem\nof the Spanish Barber.\n\n\"In a certain village in Spain, there is a barber, who shaves\neverybody in the village who does not shave himself. Who\nshaves the barber?\"\n\nWell, since everybody in the village is himself, he doesn't\nshave anyone. QED." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/05, Chris wrote:\nI was about to playfully suggest as a universal rule that one should not\npostulate clones beyond necessity. (And it still seems like something of a\ngood idea, I must admit).\n\nBut then it occurred to me that maybe a proliferation of clones actually\n*reduces* the number of entities (by making some people the same as others),\nso maybe Occam would approve. On that note I devised the following theory:\neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon.\n\nWe know that Severian, as Conciliator, weaves back and forth through time\nand leads a number of lives (Apu Punchau, etc), sometimes going quite a ways\nback in history. This being the case, all things being equal his genes would\nso dominate the gene pool that it would lead to hopelessly inbred children\nand the degeneration of the human race. To prevent this the Hierogrammates\nimplemented a plan which replaced natural reproduction with technology\nsimilar to that used to resurrect Severian, but with a twist: it creates an\n*embryonic Severian* already in place in the womb. The embryo (and\nsubsequent human) is then manipulated through hormones to generate a variety\nof appearances as necessary, including development of male or female\nreproductive organs as needed. And this, by the way, is the capping point\nthat proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this theory is correct: people\non Urth *have* to be clones because they are *incapable* of reproducing\nnaturally - despite appearances they are all genetically male!\n\nThis also explains how there's always a new Severian-body around for the\nConciliator to pop into when he dies, no matter what place and time it\nhappens to be.\n\nThis explains trivially why there are so many clones on the Whorl. All of\nthe original passengers were clones of Severian. It's not that we have\nidentified too many clones, it is that we have noticed too few.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:11:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/05, Chris wrote:\nI was about to playfully suggest as a universal rule that one should not\npostulate clones beyond necessity. (And it still seems like something of a\ngood idea, I must admit).\n\nBut then it occurred to me that maybe a proliferation of clones actually\n*reduces* the number of entities (by making some people the same as others),\nso maybe Occam would approve. On that note I devised the following theory:\neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon.\n\nWe know that Severian, as Conciliator, weaves back and forth through time\nand leads a number of lives (Apu Punchau, etc), sometimes going quite a ways\nback in history. This being the case, all things being equal his genes would\nso dominate the gene pool that it would lead to hopelessly inbred children\nand the degeneration of the human race. To prevent this the Hierogrammates\nimplemented a plan which replaced natural reproduction with technology\nsimilar to that used to resurrect Severian, but with a twist: it creates an\n*embryonic Severian* already in place in the womb. The embryo (and\nsubsequent human) is then manipulated through hormones to generate a variety\nof appearances as necessary, including development of male or female\nreproductive organs as needed. And this, by the way, is the capping point\nthat proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this theory is correct: people\non Urth *have* to be clones because they are *incapable* of reproducing\nnaturally - despite appearances they are all genetically male!\n\nThis also explains how there's always a new Severian-body around for the\nConciliator to pop into when he dies, no matter what place and time it\nhappens to be.\n\nThis explains trivially why there are so many clones on the Whorl. All of\nthe original passengers were clones of Severian. It's not that we have\nidentified too many clones, it is that we have noticed too few." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But of course! That ties in with Platonism brilliantly! Since you\nhave the Ideal New Sun, and everybody is an inferior reflection of\nthat pure essence, striving to return to the Realm of the Ideal/God. \nThe Hs are merely a little closer to that perfection, but not at or\npast (else why would they need the New Sun to usher in Ushas, hmm?).\nThis also explains easily how 'minds' could be shared in the New Sun\n(or Long Sun), an otherwise utterly ludicrous proposition- if\neverybody starts from the same basic Severian-mind, sharing a mind is\nlike moving a program from one Linux computer to another Linux\ncomputer; nothing needs to be changed or ported (unlike say going from\nLinux to Mac or Windows). Ditto for scanning- instead of discovering a\ncustom-mental-model for each and every distinct person who needs to be\nscanned, you can simply build that mental model once, and only scan\nwhat's new.\n\n~Maru\nSomewhere, Popper is rolling over in his grave." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050624151978aadaf4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:19:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maru," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/05, Maru Dubshinki wrote:\nBut of course! That ties in with Platonism brilliantly! Since you\nhave the Ideal New Sun, and everybody is an inferior reflection of\nthat pure essence, striving to return to the Realm of the Ideal/God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which leads us ineluctibly to the all-important question:\n\n\"Does a chem have Severian-nature?\"\n\nMu,\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<32667385.1119658752837.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T17:19:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050624151978aadaf4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I devised the following theory: \neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha ha! Dan'l already devised that retort the day I first declared\nthat the explanation for Wolfe's answer was that Tussah was\na clone of Typhon (although he may not remember it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it's unworkable, I just think it's significantly awkward. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but you find it awkward because (I find this stunning) you\nfound nothing particularly suspicious about Tussah's declaration\nthat Silk was somehow his \"son\". I found the statement absurd.\nThere was certainly no requirement that Tussah be succeeded by a\nblood heir. Silk's bio-mom was not Tussah's wife. Tussah certainly\nhad other women. Furthermore, the circumstances of Silk's \nimplantation were never revealed and could never be proven and\nwould probably work against Silk's popularity if it were.\nWhy assert that his \"son\" would follow after him?\n\nAnd why go out of your way to have an embryo succeed you?\nAnd how did he know that Silk would become Calde'? After all,\nwith his leadership skills, he might have ascended to the\nAyuntamiento or succeded Quetzal?\nAnd since Silk's embryo came from the Whorl, how did his \nsecond set of parents get in the Mainframe?\n\nAs I said, I didn't go trying to figure out how to get clones on Whorl.\nAs I saw it, Wolfe left no other explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And when you start trying to divine his intention here, you can go a number of \nways. Just as one example, does he mean the \"Calde\" (in its non-obvious \nsense) is Silk's father, or does he mean the Calde (Tussah) is his \"father\" \n(in a figurative sense - even given the question was about Silk's \n\"ancestry\", even this can be taken figuratively). I'm sure other \ninterpretations are possible, and I'm skeptical of all of them - I don't \nthink this quotation does much to back up any theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Tussah, under the self-evident circumstances in the text, can\nbe called Silk's \"father\" even figuratively. If I go with your interpretation,\nI'm left with the explanation that Wolfe totally misunderstood the question\n(and responded with unnecessarily abrupt dismissiveness) or\nultimately lied. But why lie if the answer to Silk's ancestry is merely that\nSilk's parentage is that they are not characters in the story?\nFor these reasons, Wolfe's answer -- unlooked for -- hit me like a ton\nof bricks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Typhon] *did* clone himself. When the Whorl came in to\norbit around their destination, TUSSAH was in\ncharge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tussah was in charge of one city, among how many? Hundreds? I don't\nthink this provides any special reason to believe that Tussah is a clone of \nTyphon. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not say this as proof that Tussah was a clone of Typhon. I was\nresponding to your assertion that Pas would prefer a clone of himself\nto lead the colonists rather than a clone of his son. I was agreeing with\nyou. \n\nWe don't know what went on at other cities. This is a story about one\nparticular city." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I don't see how it would be especially advantageous to have a \nclone of Typhon \"in charge\" when the time came - sure, such a clone might be \ngenetically predisposed to successful leadership, but then *anyone who \ngained and held that post* would likely be predisposed to successful \nleadership. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the embryos *were* sent on the Whorl with the very intent that they would\nuse their predispositions for leadership to make the colonies successful. That\nis stated explicitly. We know that. I didn't decide that a clone of Typhon had to\nbe among them. Well before I fingered Tussah as a clone, there were\ndiscussions on this list about the similarities between Silk and Typhon. \nMany people were comfortably certain that the Silk-embryo was a clone of\nTyphon. I still think there are enough clues to make that theory inviting.\nI believe it was James Jordon who first asserted that Silk was a clone of\nthe son of Typhon and proto-Kypris. I didn't like the idea at first...actually\nnot until I was convinced that Tussah was a clone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And children don't always turn out the way you'd like them to, \neven if they have the \"right genes\" - unless of course Pas was going to \npossess Tussah when the time came, but you've already argued against that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that is one of the themes of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I'd like to make a general comment that applies to things brought up in \nseveral different posts (and not specifically here) - we have to be careful \nnot to give Typhon too much credit for omniscience. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the failure of Typhon's plan to go off unhitched is pretty much a\nbackstory of LS/SS. By the time, the colonists actually disembark, the\nWhorl is falling apart, the Mainframe's modules are at war, the chems\nhave practically lost their ability to procreate since the females wore\nout, people have been using their shuttle cards for money and breaking\nthem up into \"bits\".\n\nThe plan as it ends up is not Typhon's but Pas's. And of course the Pas that\nis resurrected is not the Pas that left Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nor is there any\nindication of who, if anyone, would give such an embryo to them to\nraise, or why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a very good point. In my opinion, the person was Quetzal and his\npurpose was as a backup plan in case neither Silk nor Awk succeeded in\nbringing about the Plan of Pas. That's my guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand this, for reasons somewhat connecting with what was said \nabove - it implies instrumental roles for specific individuals in \"the Plan \nof Pas\", sight unseen.Quetzal would then have to have known their roles \nsomething like 12 years in advance to get Horn in place. And since Pas had \nbeen out of commission for some time before that, Pas would have had to have \nplanned out the course of events before many of the key players were even \nborn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. For the record, we've moved off of Tussah and on to Horn.\n\nFirst of all, it was only a guess. Secondly, Horn was about 15. That makes\nhis birth a good deal less than 10 years after Tussah's murder. Tussah, I\npresume, knew who was his \"son not of his body\". Everyone guessed he\nwas already out there somewhere. It did't require special knowledge of\ntheir future at all. It only requires knowledge that the embryos were granted\nspecial propensities in leadership. That ability was the greatest threat to the\nAyuntamiento since they were for no one's good but their own. We're never\ntold how Horn found out about the leadership abilities by the way. Who told him? \n\nI fingered Quetzal because he is the only non-simulated character in the story\nwith a vested interest in seeing the Plan of Pas come off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside from that it seems impossible that Horn could possibly have filled in \nfor Silk, even if he had supergenes. If the plan was for him to be a backup, \nit would seem safer to seed him in place much earlier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THe text says that embryos had to be procured from the black market. They\nweren't easy to get. Why would you assume the person who did it could time \nit? I'm not certain any living person knew that Silk was the \"son\" or whether\nthe son had died of measles at 10." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The alternative here seems to be either to say that cloneHorn was dropped \ninto place by some supreme agency capable of micro-managing individual lives " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The point was that he would have powers that could be used. According to [I\ndon't remember who] Blood had Mucor emplanted just to see what powers she\nwould have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the text states, there were very few people who knew Silk first hand...\ncertainly not for very long. Most of those who did, were still on the \nWhorl.\nWithout the two side-by-side, whose to compare them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lots of people in New Viron knew Horn first hand. And they get to see Silk's \nbody when Silkhorn returns to New Viron. I do not think Silk was so old that \na family resemblance would have been that impossible to discern. Especially \nin a family that striking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come on! You're telling me that anyone would recognize you as your father's son\nwithout the two of you compare side by side, even if one of your was paunchy\nand balding and the other was rail-thin, had long white hair, and a missing eye? \n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T02:15:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<32667385.1119658752837.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not a retort, this post was meant to lighten up where I felt I was getting \ntoo serious. And you have to admit, the many-Severians theory has the virtue \nof absolving Severian of the sin of having intercourse with his own \ngrandmother. Of course, whatever it is that he was doing instead would \nprobably be quite a sin in its own right, though I'm not sure anyone has \ndevised a name for it yet.\n\nNot to mention the ability to bring in anecdotes about Spanish barbers or \nthe set of all clones who aren't clones of themselves.\n\nI don't think you deserve a glib or dismissive answer to your actual \nargument, which is why I posted this separately. I'll continue separately \nand on a more serious note tomorrow.\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I devised the following theory:\neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ha ha! Dan'l already devised that retort the day I first declared\nthat the explanation for Wolfe's answer was that Tussah was\na clone of Typhon (although he may not remember it)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3568156.1119725093413.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-25T11:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Chris said:\nI devised the following theory:\neveryone on Urth is genetically Severian, including Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush said:\nHa ha! Dan'l already devised that retort the day I first declared\nthat the explanation for Wolfe's answer was that Tussah was\na clone of Typhon (although he may not remember it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not a retort, this post was meant to lighten up where I felt I was getting \ntoo serious....I don't think you deserve a glib or dismissive answer to your\nactual argument, which is why I posted this separately. I'll continue separately \nand on a more serious note tomorrow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Chris. An infinite number of Severians would certainly explain why\none they would need to wear masks. And you are right, if Severian is a clone\nthen his \"grandmother\" relation is formal rather than genetic, and there is\nstill the fact that his crypt is Typhon's family mausoleum.\n\nBut I should say that while you did not consider the post as a retort or intend\nit as dismissive, I consider \"multiplying clones to absurdity\" to be the most\ndifficult response to deal with, because....\n\nIt is not self-evident that Tussah is a clone of Typhon,\nand many (possibly most) readers find nothing askance in Tussah's \"son not\nof my body\" declaration. \n\nSo, naturally, the most reasonable assumption for those is that a rather\nincestuous \"clone theory\" (there's Severian and his grandmother again)\nis a cop-out...that I devised a curly-whorly yarn out of Himalayan thin air\nrather than carefully examine the text of the books for Wolfe's true\nintent. The opposite is true, but if one sees nothing wrong with Tussah's\n\"son\" declaration, then he is never going to abandon the \"spiritual son of\nTussah\" reading regardless of how cozily I can show that an alternate\nreading fits the story and that the \"obvious\" reading does not. \n\nI hope I took it like a man and laughed about it in the sense that I assumed\nit was intended. (If you don't like people taking pot-shots at the moon, don't\ndrop your pants.) But of all jokes, that one stings the most.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1622401406.20050625214443@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2005-06-25T12:34:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<3568156.1119725093413.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saturday, June 25, 2005, 8:44:53 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n\n\nJW> It is not self-evident that Tussah is a clone of Typhon,\nJW> and many (possibly most) readers find nothing askance in Tussah's \"son not\nJW> of my body\" declaration. \n\nJW> So, naturally, the most reasonable assumption for those is that a rather\nJW> incestuous \"clone theory\" (there's Severian and his grandmother again)\nJW> is a cop-out...that I devised a curly-whorly yarn out of Himalayan thin air\nJW> rather than carefully examine the text of the books for Wolfe's true\nJW> intent. The opposite is true, but if one sees nothing wrong with Tussah's\nJW> \"son\" declaration, then he is never going to abandon the \"spiritual son of\nJW> Tussah\" reading regardless of how cozily I can show that an alternate\nJW> reading fits the story and that the \"obvious\" reading does not. \n\nI must note that implanting an embryo which is genetically not related\nneither to mother not to father is perhaps rare, but it is a really\nhappening infertility treatment. If you maintain that implanted\ngenetically uncognate embryo cannot be someone's son, and if this is\nthe whole argument, it seems to me rather weak." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Stanis³aw Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nOMNIXMAIL! Jesli masz telefon w sieci Era i dostep do WAP, to mozesz\nna komorce odbierac poczte ze wszystkich swoich kont poczty e-mail!\nOMNIXMAIL jest w Era Omnix: http://link.interia.pl/f1896" } ] }, { "message_id": "<27047619.1119734120757.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-25T14:15:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1622401406.20050625214443@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stanislaw Bocian said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must note that implanting an embryo which is genetically not related\nneither to mother not to father is perhaps rare, but it is a really\nhappening infertility treatment. If you maintain that implanted\ngenetically uncognate embryo cannot be someone's son, and if this is\nthe whole argument, it seems to me rather weak." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that is certainly not the whole arguement. \n\nIn cases of embryo implantation now, fatherhood rights are tenuous.\nThey are recognized if the man positively asserts that right\nthrough a relationship with the child. But, yes, Tussah could still\nassert that right if he wanted to since he did pay for the\nimplantation. \n\nBut the question remains \"why did he want to assert that right?\"\nThere's no reason to believe he was sterile, assuming Chenile\nwas his naturally conceived daughter. On the otherhand,\nthere is no textual proof Tussah even had sexual relations with\nSilk's mother. Silk even never met Tussah in life.\n\nBut if only mundane family-law questions were the only\nmysteries regarding Silk and Tussah. As I said before....\n\nThere was certainly no requirement that Tussah be succeeded by a\nblood heir. Silk's birth-mom was not Tussah's wife, so Silk was no\nlegal heir. Tussah certainly had other women. Furthermore, the\ncircumstances of Silk's implantation (\"the son not of my body\") did\nnot in fact boslter his right to the Caldeship, because the\ncircumstances were never revealed on the Whorl and could never\nbe proven and would probably work against Silk's popularity if\nit were. Why assert that his \"son\", not just any son but one \"not of\nhis body\" would follow after him? Why not name a trusted grown-up\nwho could protect himself?\n\nAnd why go to such extremes to have an expensive black market\nembryo succeed you as your son? Especially if you could produce\nan heir naturally yourself, and especially if you knew no more\nabout what it would be when it developed than Blood did\nregarding Mucor? And how did he know that Silk would become\nCalde'? After all, with his leadership skills, and without Tussah's\ndirect guidance, he might have ascended to the Ayuntamiento\nor succeded Quetzal. (Horn asked Silk this directly without getting\nan answer.) And since Silk's embryo came from Urth, how did his \nsecond set of parents get in the Mainframe?\n\nSo how's that? Have I stirred up any doubts in anyone regarding\nthe straightforwardness of the \"son not of my body\" issue? I doubt it.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T16:48:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<32667385.1119658752837.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do recognize that this plays on the biggest weakness of an attempted clone \ntheory, but then in a broader sense almost any constructive theory of this \nkind from Wolfe's work has problems with \"economy\". Wolfe does not make it \neasy to draw clean, economical interpretations of his stories (which is not \nto say we shouldn't still *try* to be economical in our interpretations). \nThat said I would just take it as implicit that a theory like this faces an \nuphill battle, and needs fairly strong arguments to be convincing, and leave \nit at that.\n\nCrush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it's unworkable, I just think it's significantly awkward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but you find it awkward because (I find this stunning) you\nfound nothing particularly suspicious about Tussah's declaration\nthat Silk was somehow his \"son\". I found the statement absurd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This strays from my original point as far as the Wolfe quotation goes: if we \ntake it as granted that Wolfe was speaking figuratively, then the quotation \ndoesn't really provide usable evidence for any theory, yours or otherwise. \nYes, I can see how you could read it the way you do, but I can also see how \nit can be read in other ways *even if your theory were correct*.\n\nBut you are correct in that I don't find it unreasonable for Tussah to \nconsider his chosen heir, who he has taken extraordinary effort to set up \nand protect, as his \"son\" in a sense. It's just that this isn't my reason \nfor finding your reading awkward. I find it awkward because referring to \nTyphon as \"Calde\" in a context where the term is sure to be taken as \nreferring to someone else flouts basic conversational rules - which is \nobvious, and we agreed on from the beginning. And no, I don't take the \nawkwardness to be decisive in ruling out your reading, because it's not \nbeyond Wolfe. I just don't see any possibility of a decisive interpretation \nof that statement either way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why go out of your way to have an embryo succeed you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has been too long since I read the Long Sun series to try to \npsychoanalyze Tussah, and I doubt there's enough in the text to allow that \nanyway, but possibly because he wanted an especially effective leader to \nfollow him? Because he cared for the people under his rule? Or possibly as a \nfinal gesture of his own power beyond death, in choosing and maneuvering the \nperson who would carry on after him? (I would have to dig, but I seem to \nrecall Machiavelli putting a similar sentiment in the mouth of some \nhistorical ruler or other). Maybe out of pure spite for his political \nenemies, wanting to be sure his successor would be strong enough to \ndefeat/destroy them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And how did he know that Silk would become Calde'? After all,\nwith his leadership skills, he might have ascended to the\nAyuntamiento or succeded Quetzal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This leads to an odd bit of speculation which I don't know whether there's \nany solid evidence to be found, but... I seem to recall there is something \nvery odd towards the beginning of the Long Sun series, where someone has put \nup a huge graffiti to the effect of \"Silk for Calde!\" long before Silk is \nwell-known or has done anything to attract public attention to himself. It \nalways seemed quite out of place. It seemed to me that someone, before the \nstory even begins, is preparing to maneuver Silk into taking over, and it is \na mystery as to who's behind it. Possibly agents secretly loyal to Tussah \nwho were left to watch Silk and push him into leadership when the time came?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And since Silk's embryo came from the Whorl, how did his\nsecond set of parents get in the Mainframe?\n\nAs I said, I didn't go trying to figure out how to get clones on Whorl.\nAs I saw it, Wolfe left no other explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of the original Whorl colonists, including the ones in stasis, \noriginally came from Urth. Perhaps a couple of them were Silk's parents? It \nwouldn't require that much of a stretch.\n\nAs an aside, Mainframe is a concept that always struck me as odd, and I just \ndon't see how it can possibly work as presented (or why its designer would \nwant to set it up that way). Which possibly points to some further secret \nabout the nature of Mainframe, but if so I haven't been able to place it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tussah was in charge of one city, among how many? Hundreds? I don't\nthink this provides any special reason to believe that Tussah is a clone \nof\nTyphon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not say this as proof that Tussah was a clone of Typhon. I was\nresponding to your assertion that Pas would prefer a clone of himself\nto lead the colonists rather than a clone of his son. I was agreeing with\nyou." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, backing up from the question of Typhon's preferences for a second: in \nthe broadest terms, either Tussah's being a clone of Typhon was an intended \npart of the plan for evacuating the ship, or it was not. If it was part of \nthe plan, then this suggests that the same thing would be true in the other \ncities as well, implying lots of clones brought into play (though I am not \nsure how that would work in a matriarchal city, for example). If it was not \npart of the plan, then Tussah's being a clone of Typhon ends up being \nincidental, and we are left with a big question of how/why this came about \nthat has no good answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the embryos *were* sent on the Whorl with the very intent that they \nwould\nuse their predispositions for leadership to make the colonies successful. \nThat\nis stated explicitly. We know that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. And this to me falls into a category of planning that is something \nlike: \"give them good starting materials, and hope for the best.\" And that \ndoes seem to be the way Typhon operated. What I don't see happening, though, \nis a sort of micro-manipulation where Pas, from the beginning of the voyage, \nsays: \"At time X I want a person with THIS set of genes in THIS particular \nposition.\"\n\nBut this is just another way of working on the angle that either having a \nclone (Tussah) in place at that time is intentional, or it is not. If it's \nintentional, it really stretches the bounds of what we can reasonably expect \nPas to have planned, even if he made the plan on the spot just before \ndecanting the clone. And this also does not seem to be a sensible or \nworkable way to plan things." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. For the record, we've moved off of Tussah and on to Horn.\n\nFirst of all, it was only a guess. Secondly, Horn was about 15. That makes\nhis birth a good deal less than 10 years after Tussah's murder. Tussah, I\npresume, knew who was his \"son not of his body\". Everyone guessed he\nwas already out there somewhere. It did't require special knowledge of\ntheir future at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, OK, here I should ask: if Horn was also a decanted embryo, do you \nthink his being present at the same manteion where Silk would eventually end \nup was intended, or mere coincidence? If coincidence, what would be the \npurpose of taking an exhorbitantly expensively embryo and dropping him into \na poor family, in a location where he is unlikely to get a great education \nand where statistically he stands a greater chance of being killed in some \nrandom accident or crime before reaching a reasonable age? If he's meant to \nplay some role, or be a backup, why not decant him earlier so that he could \nbe a more reasonable age when the time came?\n\nOn the other hand if he was meant to be there under the tutelage of Silk, \nwhoever put him there would have to have an unrealistically exact sense of \nwhat was going to happen and when." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THe text says that embryos had to be procured from the black market. They\nweren't easy to get. Why would you assume the person who did it could time\nit? I'm not certain any living person knew that Silk was the \"son\" or \nwhether\nthe son had died of measles at 10." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, and this goes right along with what I was trying to get at. It \nmakes Horn's presence at that place and time even more inexplicable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lots of people in New Viron knew Horn first hand. And they get to see \nSilk's\nbody when Silkhorn returns to New Viron. I do not think Silk was so old \nthat\na family resemblance would have been that impossible to discern. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Especially\nin a family that striking.\n\nCome on! You're telling me that anyone would recognize you as your father's \nson\nwithout the two of you compare side by side, even if one of your was \npaunchy\nand balding and the other was rail-thin, had long white hair, and a missing \neye?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the average person, perhaps not (but realistically, maybe). But we're \nsupposedly talking about someone for whom facial features are extremely \nimportant, this is what I was getting at. If the \"face of command\" is \ngenetically passed on, then someone who actually has it will have certain \ndistinctive features, won't they? And if Horn didn't get the features, then \nhe wouldn't have had the face and uncanny leadership skills you assume him \nto have. Though for the record I do not think Horn had any particularly \nuncanny leadership skills other than having learned from a good teacher - \nbut then again, I don't think Horn is a clone either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506251715760701c5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T17:15:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/25/05, Chris wrote:\nThis leads to an odd bit of speculation which I don't know whether there's\nany solid evidence to be found, but... I seem to recall there is something\nvery odd towards the beginning of the Long Sun series, where someone has put\nup a huge graffiti to the effect of \"Silk for Calde!\" long before Silk is\nwell-known or has done anything to attract public attention to himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is in volume 2, if I recall correctly - or late in V1. But I think it's\nV2.\n\nDoctor Crane turns out to be behind it, though we have to infer this \nfrom his letter home.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18243160.1119813116631.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-26T12:12:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506251715760701c5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris said:\nThat said I would just take it as implicit that a theory like this faces an \nuphill battle, and needs fairly strong arguments to be convincing, and leave \nit at that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I know. And, I admit, that for someone to find this theory appealing\n*at all* you have to unsatisfied with the \"obvious\" explanation. It has \nstrong arguments behind if that is true, or even if one has serious'\nmisgivings about that \"weak railing\" of Silk's second set of parents \nin the Mainframe. \n\nOtherwise, its arguments are not strong at all, and seem to fly out\nof nowhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush said:\nYou find it awkward because (I find this stunning) you\nfound nothing particularly suspicious about Tussah's declaration\nthat Silk was somehow his \"son\". I found the statement absurd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we take it as granted that Wolfe was speaking figuratively [when\nhe said of Silk's \"ancestry\" that he was the son of the Calde and his\nmistress], then the quotation doesn't really provide usable evidence for any\ntheory, yours or otherwise. \nI find it awkward because referring to \nTyphon as \"Calde\" in a context where the term is sure to be taken as \nreferring to someone else flouts basic conversational rules - which is \nobvious, and we agreed on from the beginning. And no, I don't take the \nawkwardness to be decisive in ruling out your reading, because it's not \nbeyond Wolfe. I just don't see any possibility of a decisive interpretation \nof that statement either way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"figuratively\" not the word. He was answering \"puckishly\". I think Calde'\nis the correct term for Typhon in Wolfe's mind. Perhaps \"Calde'\" the the very\ntitle Typhon held in whatever fabled backstory Wolfe designed for \n\"The New Sun\". He answer precisely and in a manner intended to mislead. \nIf on a witness stand, he could be charged with purjury for an answer like\nthat, but otherwise, it is technically an \"honest\" answer.\n\nIt is a matter of easy deduction: If he answered \"figuratively\" for \"son\" then\nhe must be speaking figuratively regarding \"ancestry\". But there is no\nfigurative sense for ancestry. If he was answering candidly, then we must\nexplain how Tussah is in the ancestry of Silk.\n\nAs I read it, his answer did not *answer* any questions. But it did rule \nout several strong alternatives. That's how I came to say \"Tussah=Typhon\".\nIt was exasperating because I realized that while it answered every problem\nI had regarding Silk's parentage, it could NEVER be determined, to the\nexclusion of other possiblities, simply from the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I can see how you could read it the way you do, but I can also see\nhow it can be read in other ways *even if your theory were correct*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would be really REALLY interested in those other ways since, as I said\nI found all other doors shut to me. Of course, Tussah=Typhon, cozily\nanswers every open question I had regarding Silk's parentage, but if\nyou've got some other options I would love (honestly, I mean it) to hear them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush asks:\nAnd why go out of your way to have an embryo succeed you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Chris some decent psychoanalytical answers.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush asks:\nAnd how did he know that Silk would become Calde'? After all,\nwith his leadership skills, he might have ascended to the\nAyuntamiento or succeded Quetzal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Chris notes the \"Silk for Calde\" signs around Viron]\nPossibly agents secretly loyal to Tussah \nwho were left to watch Silk and push him into leadership\nwhen the time came?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Dan'l pointed out, Crane was behind those and Blood's\ndriver (who was a Trivigaunte agent) confessed to writing \nthem. But that was one the methods that brought Silk to\nthe front even though he really did nothing to place\nhimself in that position. It doesn't explain how Tussah knew\nit would happen. I think I know how he knew. See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush said:\nAnd since Silk's embryo came from the Whorl, how did his\nsecond set of parents get in the Mainframe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris:\nAll of the original Whorl colonists, including the ones in stasis, \noriginally came from Urth. Perhaps a couple of them were Silk's parents? It \nwouldn't require that much of a stretch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alright, see IMO that *is* a major stretch. Wolfe remarked about \n\"literary rules\" that if \"gun is on the table in Act 1, someone has to fire\nit.\" To have unnamed undescribed colonists from Urth who are otherwise\nunnoted in the story appear in the Mainframe as Silk's parents and then go\naway is a serious storytelling violation. Fifteen to Life if you can show the \nwriter is not a hack. I just do not believe it would have gotten into the book\nwithout Wolfe or his editor noting that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As an aside, Mainframe is a concept that always struck me as odd, and I just \ndon't see how it can possibly work as presented (or why its designer would \nwant to set it up that way). Which possibly points to some further secret \nabout the nature of Mainframe, but if so I haven't been able to place it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've decided that Wolfe wanted a complete religious cosmos for the Whorl.\nHe has a clockwork world, he has clockwork gods, he needs a clockwork\nHeaven. I agree that explaining how it works is problematic. How do chems\nget there? That's easy. How do people get there? That's a toughie. But it is\nnot beyond the realm of possibility and I think that was enough for Wolfe's\npurposes. Just as Damon Knight's story \"Life Edit\" does not explain how\nlives were actually gone back in time and edited." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, backing up from the question of Typhon's preferences for a second: in \nthe broadest terms, either Tussah's being a clone of Typhon was an intended \npart of the plan for evacuating the ship, or it was not. If it was part of \nthe plan, then this suggests that the same thing would be true in the other \ncities as well, implying lots of clones brought into play (though I am not \nsure how that would work in a matriarchal city, for example). If it was not \npart of the plan, then Tussah's being a clone of Typhon ends up being \nincidental, and we are left with a big question of how/why this came about \nthat has no good answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, IMO, Tussah being a clone of Typhon explains the questions of Silk's\nparentage. Not much more, except that it opens the door on the question\n\"Are there any more like him?\" There are still odd reference, themes, and\nparallels that connect Silk to Pas *and* Tussah well before Silk *becomes*\nPas. Tussah being a clone does not solve that. \n\nAs for \"other clones\", I presume there are other clones in the \nother cities. Why would we assume only Viron had a refrigerator full of\nembryos under it? As you already know, I think there are multiple Typhons\nwalking around, I think Silk is a clone. If the embryos are clones then we\nknow that there are female embryos as well (Mucor). The obvious\nassumption is that Typhon cloned his family and favorites for the trip, and\nWolfe may have been quite aware who they were when/if they appeared in\nthe story. We know more about Silk, and Tussah as his \"father\" is\nimportant to the story, so pinning a name on them is more likely to resolve\nsignificant questions than with other hypothetical embryos.\n\nBut it does open up questions on Mucor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is just another way of working on the angle that either having a \nclone (Tussah) in place at that time is intentional, or it is not. If it's \nintentional, it really stretches the bounds of what we can reasonably expect \nPas to have planned, even if he made the plan on the spot just before \ndecanting the clone. And this also does not seem to be a sensible or \nworkable way to plan things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make a good point. Pas MIGHT NOT have initially wanted his clone to\nlead Viron. He might have not cared beyond that embryos be there to lead it. \nI thought it remarkable (only after deciding that Tussah=Typhon) that just\nbefore planned disembarkation, Tussah was Calde over Viron. But that could\njust be a coincidence, or a planned literary parrallel on Wolfe's part (Pas\nmurdered, Tussah murdered)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay. For the record, we've moved off of Tussah and on to Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, OK, here I should ask: if Horn was also a decanted embryo, do you \nthink his being present at the same manteion where Silk would eventually end \nup was intended, or mere coincidence? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It only means that Horn was implanted in Viron in a poor family. For Tussah to\ndrop his heirs among poor families seems to be is M.O., presumably to better\nhide them. We have some\ninformation regarding Horn's family but I'm not yet prepared to debate why\nor under what circumstances Horn came to be there. It seems likely to me\nthat positioning Silk over that manteon (he didn't want to go there) might\nhave been to get the surreptitiously placed embryos together so they could\nsupport one another. \n\nBut I think it is a mistake to ascribe Silk's ascendency to mere coincidence or\neven his leadership skills. The gods are in the background possessing and\nquitely influencing decisions in Viron as with everywhere else. I think that is\nthe only explanation for Silk's rapid rise. And I think Quetzals desire to limit\nthe gods' direct influence in Viron was his specific reason for taking steps to\nlimit any sacrificial appearance by the gods. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If coincidence, what would be the \npurpose of taking an exhorbitantly expensively embryo and dropping him into \na poor family, in a location where he is unlikely to get a great education \nand where statistically he stands a greater chance of being killed in some \nrandom accident or crime before reaching a reasonable age? If he's meant to \nplay some role, or be a backup, why not decant him earlier so that he could \nbe a more reasonable age when the time came?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have my books and Amazon \"Search Inside\" does not provide the\n\"People and Places\" section of the books, however, IIRC Horn is named\nthere as \"the leader of the boys in the palaestra\". So he was still excelling\nin that regard.\n\n\"My lack of education hasn't hurt much,\nI can still read the writing on the wall.\" -- Paul Simon\n\nFurthermore, as I hinted above, I'm not convinced that Horn and Tussah\nwere the only clones of Typhon or anyone else walking around in the\nstory. (Here we get back to \"everyone is a clone of Severian\" joke,\nwhich is so funny and so biting because it rings so true.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush said\nCome on! You're telling me that anyone would recognize you as your father's \nson without the two of you compare side by side, even if one of your was \npaunchy and balding and the other was rail-thin, had long white hair, and\na missing eye?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the average person, perhaps not (but realistically, maybe). But we're \nsupposedly talking about someone for whom facial features are extremely \nimportant, this is what I was getting at. If the \"face of command\" is \ngenetically passed on, then someone who actually has it will have certain \ndistinctive features, won't they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure where the term \"face of command\" comes from although I've\nseen it used a lot on the list. I don't think Typhon's powers of leadership\ncome from something special about his face. Neither so for Silk or Horn. \n\nIf we assume,\nand I do, that Chenille's face was the image of Tussah's, then we will have\nto assume based on Horn's statement that Silk's face was not really that\nmuch like Tussah's. That's why I ruled out Silk being a clone of Tussah\n(which would have explained how the second set of parents got in the\nMainframe after all, among other things).\n\nIs it possible for a son to share the same hair color with his\nfather (and even have a reddish beard, which, incidentally, is a sign of\nbeing a \"Typhonian\"), yet not look much like him otherwise? Sure it is.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050626162226.R79100-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2005-06-26T13:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<18243160.1119813116631.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wynn,\n\nIn the earlier of your two (so far) messages today,\nyou refer twice to \"the Mainframe\", presumably mean-\ning the computer construct on the Whorl that takes\nthe place of Heaven. Silk's seeing two sets of par-\nents there is important to your theory of cloning\nand ancestry.\n\nIt seems to me, however, that the \"Mainframe\" in\nwhich he sees his two sets of parents is not the\ncomputer construct--it's the real Heaven of the Out-\nsider. Silk describes it as Mainframe because he\nhas no other terms for it; to him, Mainframe is\nHeaven. While there, Silk sees both his spiritual\nparents (his birth mother and Tussah) and his phys-\ncial parents (whoever they may be).\n\nYou may decide that this doesn't affect your theory;\nI confess that I've lost track of the details and\nso can't judge the likelihood of this for myself.\nTo me, it makes explicit some of the unexpressed as-\nsumptions in this conversation, and helps resolve\nsome of the contradictions that seem to have led to\nthe current form of your hypothesis.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<33061531.1119913868099.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-27T16:11:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<20050626162226.R79100-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark Millman said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the earlier of your two (so far) messages today,\nyou refer twice to \"the Mainframe\", presumably mean-\ning the computer construct on the Whorl that takes\nthe place of Heaven. Silk's seeing two sets of par-\nents there is important to your theory of cloning\nand ancestry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me, however, that the \"Mainframe\" in\nwhich he sees his two sets of parents is not the\ncomputer construct--it's the real Heaven of the Out-\nsider.\n[...]\nYou may decide that this doesn't affect your theory;\nI confess that I've lost track of the details and\nso can't judge the likelihood of this for myself.\nTo me, it makes explicit some of the unexpressed as-\nsumptions in this conversation, and helps resolve\nsome of the contradictions that seem to have led to\nthe current form of your hypothesis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, having Silk's reunion with his parents NOT occur in the Mainframe would\ncertainly eliminate the question of how his second set got there, you've\ndefinitely got your finger on a major issue in this case. Here's my problem\nwith that:\n\n1) We have another instance of people meeting dead parents -- it occurs\nat the end of the story when everyone sails to the beginning of the Sun\nand it undeniably occurs in the Mainframe. \n\n2) The 2nd set of parents in the Mainframe (or Heaven) is a big one to me\nbut it is not the only one. I think I laid out my questions to the best of my\nability here:\nhttp://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2005-June/001214.html\n\nHere, at last, the joke about Occam's Razor and infinite clones simplifying\nmatters for once works in my favor. Most readers have presumed\nthat Tussah was speaking figuratively when he called Silk \"the son not of my \nbody\" since \"what other explanation was there?\". Chris has proposed a vast\narray of psychoanalysis on Tussah to explain his need for an embryo to\nsucceed him. And now you have offered an alternate understanding of the\nMainframe...supposing that that the place where Silk met his parents the\nfirst time is different from the place where he and Remora and Hyancinth\nand everyone else met their parents at the *end* of the story.\n\nAt this point, by comparison, Tussah as a clone of Typhon is demonstrably\nnot awkward at all:\n\nTussah was a clone of Typhon. The embryos with the special abilities\nwere clones...clones of Typhon and his family and possibly his\ncourtiers. He had to get them from somewhere, why not pick (as he saw\nit) the best of the best and duplicating them over and over rather cull\nmultiple unique ones? Tussah implanted an embryo in Silk's mother\nknowing that genetically that clone was his son. That's why he called him\n\"the son not of my body.\" He was not speaking figuratively. He was\nmerely stating a fact. (There nothing more Wolfean that offering \na lie or a figure of speech and suddenly discovering it was true.)\nAnd, finally, the four people Silk met when he briefly died were\nTussah, his birth-mother, Typhon, and Kypris. \n\n(and if you consider the implications that the Rajan consistently\ncalled the inhumu Juganu his sister, that during soul-travel she\nhad red hair, and when she wandered into a dark bar drunk the\nRajan at first thought she was Chenille, you might consider that\na)we do have reason suspect who Juganu's mother fed on before\nshe was born and b) it is possible that fewer people are using\nfamilial terms figuratively that we supposed at first reading.)\n\n~ James Wynn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-27T17:59:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<18243160.1119813116631.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I know. And, I admit, that for someone to find this theory appealing\n*at all* you have to unsatisfied with the \"obvious\" explanation. It has\nstrong arguments behind if that is true, or even if one has serious'\nmisgivings about that \"weak railing\" of Silk's second set of parents\nin the Mainframe.\n\nOtherwise, its arguments are not strong at all, and seem to fly out\nof nowhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it is pretty much exactly as you say. And I'd even put this together \nwith something you mentioned earlier - it's not just about the Wolfe quote \nfrom the interview, or even primarily about it. The quote is extra-textual, \nand by some schools of thought that precludes it from entering into the \ninterpretation process at all. But for all the attention we've given it your \ntheory doesn't (or at least as far as I can tell shouldn't) rest on it. The \nmeat of the issue lies elsewhere; I've just unfortunately let myself devote \nto much time to arguing that the quote is ultimately unhelpful. Because:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, \"figuratively\" not the word. He was answering \"puckishly\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether you call it \"figurative\", \"puckish\", \"mendacious\" or merely \n\"non-literal\", it doesn't make for good evidence for much of anything. Nor \nis it even *capable* of ruling out much of anything, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would be really REALLY interested in those other ways since, as I said\nI found all other doors shut to me. Of course, Tussah=Typhon, cozily\nanswers every open question I had regarding Silk's parentage, but if\nyou've got some other options I would love (honestly, I mean it) to hear \nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like what needs to be answered, at least in part, is why Tussah \nfeels that Silk is his \"son\". Because regardless of questions of DNA and \nphysical fatherhood, you have additionally raised this as a question. I gave \nsome possible impressions there, if only partial.\n\nNow, on your picture Tussah is a clone of the person whose son Silk is a \nclone of. (Pardon the awful grammatical construction). This is a position to \ntake toward the DNA aspect; do you count it as the answer to the \npsychological question as well? Because if that's what you are implying then \nyou're putting forward an even stronger assertion than I thought, since it \nimplies that Tussah somehow knows all this.\n\nI do have some thoughts about Silk's parentage but they are just hazy enough \nthat I will have to put them on hold until I can go back and re-read the \nseries to get the context of the passages I'm thinking of - I have made \nmistakes on that before. So I am not much help there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush asks:\nAnd how did he know that Silk would become Calde'? After all,\nwith his leadership skills, he might have ascended to the\nAyuntamiento or succeded Quetzal?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Chris notes the \"Silk for Calde\" signs around Viron]\nPossibly agents secretly loyal to Tussah\nwho were left to watch Silk and push him into leadership\nwhen the time came?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Dan'l pointed out, Crane was behind those and Blood's\ndriver (who was a Trivigaunte agent) confessed to writing\nthem. But that was one the methods that brought Silk to\nthe front even though he really did nothing to place\nhimself in that position. It doesn't explain how Tussah knew\nit would happen. I think I know how he knew. See below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Quetzal also provides a fairly practical vector for Tussah to count \non. Just how much he'd count on Quetzal I don't know, but he's not an \ninsignificant factor by any means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alright, see IMO that *is* a major stretch. Wolfe remarked about\n\"literary rules\" that if \"gun is on the table in Act 1, someone has to fire\nit.\" To have unnamed undescribed colonists from Urth who are otherwise\nunnoted in the story appear in the Mainframe as Silk's parents and then go\naway is a serious storytelling violation. Fifteen to Life if you can show \nthe\nwriter is not a hack. I just do not believe it would have gotten into the \nbook\nwithout Wolfe or his editor noting that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do they have to be unnamed? Has anyone ever suggested Mamelta? She actually \nmight be another instance of a \"gun on the table\", come to think of it. The \nonly thing I can find from Wolfe on the subject of Mamelta is that the \netymology is probably \"Not Careless\".\n\nThis of course seems a stretch. But right now we're only talking about guns \non tables needing to be fired, and it's as good an answer as any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As an aside, Mainframe is a concept that always struck me as odd, and I \njust\ndon't see how it can possibly work as presented (or why its designer \nwould\nwant to set it up that way). Which possibly points to some further secret\nabout the nature of Mainframe, but if so I haven't been able to place it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've decided that Wolfe wanted a complete religious cosmos for the Whorl.\nHe has a clockwork world, he has clockwork gods, he needs a clockwork\nHeaven. I agree that explaining how it works is problematic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or perhaps it's unproblematic, it's just that what Mainframe *does* is not \nwhat they think it does. Or perhaps, per the \"heaven\" suggestion, it's not \nMainframe we should be thinking about at all. I agree with you about the \nrole of Mainframe in the story as far as Wolfe is concerned, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, IMO, Tussah being a clone of Typhon explains the questions of Silk's\nparentage. Not much more, except that it opens the door on the question\n\"Are there any more like him?\" There are still odd reference, themes, and\nparallels that connect Silk to Pas *and* Tussah well before Silk *becomes*\nPas. Tussah being a clone does not solve that.\n\nAs for \"other clones\", I presume there are other clones in the\nother cities. Why would we assume only Viron had a refrigerator full of\nembryos under it? As you already know, I think there are multiple Typhons\nwalking around, I think Silk is a clone. If the embryos are clones then we\nknow that there are female embryos as well (Mucor). The obvious\nassumption is that Typhon cloned his family and favorites for the trip, and\nWolfe may have been quite aware who they were when/if they appeared in\nthe story. We know more about Silk, and Tussah as his \"father\" is\nimportant to the story, so pinning a name on them is more likely to resolve\nsignificant questions than with other hypothetical embryos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Elsewhere you suggest that the modified embryos put in storage would be \nbased on Typhon and his family, but if we're talking about a significant \nnumber of clones then there is a practical reason you *wouldn't* want to do \nit this way: genetic diversity. You may laugh this off as a factor but as \nthe number of clones increases it becomes more and more of a concern. And \nnot just for reproductive reasons - entering a new and unpredictable \nenvironment, it would be a bad thing for all of your uberleaders to be \ngenetically vulnerable to the same diseases. All things being equal and \ngiven the resources you're spending on the project, why not make things as \ndiverse as possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It only means that Horn was implanted in Viron in a poor family. For \nTussah to\ndrop his heirs among poor families seems to be is M.O., presumably to \nbetter\nhide them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk's mother was not quite *that* poor. Horn's family lived, basically, in \na slum. And arrangements were made, for Silk, as well. He got a very good \neducation, and he didn't enter the priesthood by accident.\n\nOn the other hand there's no apparent reason at all to put Horn where he \nwas, and no special opportunities afforded by that position, UNLESS you \ncount exposure to Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or under what circumstances Horn came to be there. It seems likely to me\nthat positioning Silk over that manteon (he didn't want to go there) might\nhave been to get the surreptitiously placed embryos together so they could\nsupport one another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quetzal certainly had the power to arrange it this way. But it's difficult \nto explain *why* he would - if he really were making these plans 15+ years \nin advance, he could have equally arranged to put them together under other \ncircumstances. But this starts to suggest the same sort of long-term \nmicro-management that I find dubious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"My lack of education hasn't hurt much,\nI can still read the writing on the wall.\" -- Paul Simon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not at all suggesting that the uneducated can't be good leaders. I am \nhowever suggesting that if you're going to make an expensive long-term \ngamble, you'd try to give the child in question every advantage possible. \nEven the rich in our own world do not make a point of sending there children \nto poor inner-city schools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure where the term \"face of command\" comes from although I've\nseen it used a lot on the list. I don't think Typhon's powers of leadership\ncome from something special about his face. Neither so for Silk or Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In this case you disagree with Typhon, then. And ultimately Typhon is the \none who arranged the pleasure-cruise; if anybody made arrangements to put \nclones on board, it would have been him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050628003322.F79100-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2005-06-27T21:54:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Chris and James,\n\nOn Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Chris wrote, quoting\nJames Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure where the term\n\"face of command\" comes from\nalthough I've seen it used a\nlot on the list. I don't\nthink Typhon's powers of\nleadership come from some-\nthing special about his face.\nNeither so for Silk or Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this case you disagree with Typhon,\nthen. And ultimately Typhon is the one\nwho arranged the pleasure-cruise; if\nanybody made arrangements to put\nclones on board, it would have been\nhim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The term \"face of command\" comes from Typhon\nhimself. In explaining why he chose to have\nhis head transplanted onto Piaton's body, he\ntells Severian two things: first, that the\noperation to transplant the entire head was\nsimpler than a brain-transplant; and second,\nand more importantly, that the head-trans-\nplant, unlike a brain-transplant, would pre-\nserve the face that his subjects were accus-\ntomed to obey. This is the context in which\n\"face of command\" occurs (though they may\nnot be Typhon's exact words--I cannot check\nat this moment--in any case Typhon certainly\nexpresses this concept).\n\nI must agree with Mr. Wynn here. I don't\nthink that Typhon believes that there is any-\nthing inherently special in his face that\naids his ability to rule. The key point is\nthat he must be recognized as himself, the\nMonarch, even after the operation. Call to\nmind as well Master Malrubius' lesson on the\nhighest form of government (or is it the\nhighest form of loyalty?--I can't, at the mo-\nment, remember, and it makes little differ-\nence to this argument), and take into ac-\ncount that Typhon is in part an analogue of\nLucifer; he will have an inverted or pervert-\ned form of government (or his followers' loy-\nalties will be perverse), which mocks the\nvirtuous or pure model.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14371091.1120001805651.JavaMail.root@wamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-28T16:36:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<20050628003322.F79100-100000@heimdallr.dyndns.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris said:\nNow, on your picture Tussah is a clone of the person whose son Silk is a \nclone of. (Pardon the awful grammatical construction). This is a position to \ntake toward the DNA aspect; do you count it as the answer to the \npsychological question as well? Because if that's what you are implying then \nyou're putting forward an even stronger assertion than I thought, since it \nimplies that Tussah somehow knows all this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. I am saying that Tussah KNEW he is a clone of Typhon. It is likely he\neven knew that Pas had that name on the Red Sun Whorl (the Rajan was\naware of it). Lemur knows a lot of details about the family of Typhon. \nThose on the \"inside\" in Viron may know more about the details of the\nrulership of Typhon than the sleepers since apparently a lot of their\nmemories have been wiped and changed. I strongly suspect that by the\nfinal chapters of \"Exodus\", Silk knows he is a clone and he knows his\ngenetic relationship to Typhon. I've hypothesized in my last response to \nRoy that Tussah might not have procured Silk from the black\nmarket although Remora presumed he had. He might well have simply\ngone to the refrigerator that Silk and Mamelta found (or one like it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do have some thoughts about Silk's parentage but they are just hazy\nenough that I will have to put them on hold until I can go back and\nre-read the series to get the context of the passages I'm thinking of..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. Let me know when you start. I might be ready for a re-read by then as\nwell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush asks:\nAnd how did he know that Silk would become Calde'? After all,\nwith his leadership skills, he might have ascended to the\nAyuntamiento or succeded Quetzal?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris says:\nWell, Quetzal also provides a fairly practical vector for Tussah to count \non. Just how much he'd count on Quetzal I don't know, but he's not an \ninsignificant factor by any means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think he's a very powerful factor. But not that powerful I\nthink. I really think Tussah must have felt able to count on divine\nhelp in that matter.\n\nJW said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Alright, see IMO that *is* a major stretch [that Silk's parents were\npassengers on the Whorl]. Wolfe remarked about\n\"literary rules\" that if \"gun is on the table in Act 1, someone has to fire\nit.\" To have unnamed undescribed colonists from Urth who are otherwise\nunnoted in the story appear in the Mainframe as Silk's parents and then go\naway is a serious storytelling violation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responds:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do they have to be unnamed? Has anyone ever suggested Mamelta? She actually \nmight be another instance of a \"gun on the table\", come to think of it. The \nonly thing I can find from Wolfe on the subject of Mamelta is that the \netymology is probably \"Not Careless\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny you should say that. Go back and search the archives for the discussion\non whether Mamelta is Kypris and Silk's mother. Although, I can't remember\nwhether the arguments *assumed* that Kypris was Silk's mother and that if\nMamelta was one she had to be the other.\n\nHowever, Kypris *does* say that in life she looked kind of like Hyacinth\n(Hy and Mam both had dark hair). And that business I mentioned earlier\nabout Mamelta's bird \"Chico\" in the \"People\" section of \"Exodus\" (or maybe\n\"Lake\" or \"Calde\") is a big sign to me that ties her both to Kypris and\n\"Bird of the Woods\" in \"The Book of the New Sun\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This of course seems a stretch. But right now we're only talking about guns \non tables needing to be fired, and it's as good an answer as any." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not much of a stretch to me, but that's just me. That Mamelta is Silk's\nbio-mom is exactly what I believe and it might *be* that Silk meets her\nin the Mainframe rather than Kypris, but we still have his other father to\naccount for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Elsewhere you suggest that the modified embryos put in storage would be \nbased on Typhon and his family, but if we're talking about a significant \nnumber of clones then there is a practical reason you *wouldn't* want to do \nit this way: genetic diversity. You may laugh this off as a factor but as \nthe number of clones increases it becomes more and more of a concern.And \nnot just for reproductive reasons - entering a new and unpredictable \nenvironment, it would be a bad thing for all of your uberleaders to be \ngenetically vulnerable to the same diseases. All things being equal and \ngiven the resources you're spending on the project, why not make things as \ndiverse as possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe, but once I accepted the possibility that there were multiple embryos\nwho are clones of Urth's court, REAL familial relationships began to present\nthemselves as answers to the bizarre thematic relationships I noted on my\nfirst read. There are characters that are treated thematically as the same\nperson or as related in ways that made no sense. I would literally have\nto annotate book to explain these, but when I was able to say \"Ah! Hieros!\nor \"Hah, hah! 'Son' indeed!\" suddenly a lot of the wierdness just fell away.\n\nGranted, it *could* be a case where having only a hammer in one's tool-\nbox, everthing looks like a nail, but I don't think I *did* approach the\nstory with only a hammer -- I initially tried several other tools, but then\nat last saw my problems \"driven down\"\n\nJW said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It only means that Horn was implanted in Viron in a poor family. For \nTussah to drop his heirs among poor families seems to be is M.O.,\npresumably to better hide them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris said:\nSilk's mother was not quite *that* poor. Horn's family lived, basically, in \na slum. And arrangements were made, for Silk, as well. He got a very\ngood education, and he didn't enter the priesthood by accident." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Chenille's is supposed to be the *natural* daughter of Tussah\nand *she* grew up in the same slum. The money got pretty tight\nfor Silk's mom after Tussah died. Silk's education was her\nresponsibility alone and no one helped her with it as far as we are\ntold. Joining the Charter was Silk's decision and it was against\nhis mother's desires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand there's no apparent reason at all to put Horn where he \nwas, and no special opportunities afforded by that position, UNLESS you \ncount exposure to Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about exposure to Chenille? How about exposure to Quetzal who\nspent time in Horn's district to feed on the inhabitants. He was born well\nafter Tussah's death. It would have to be someone else who put him\nthere, and I agree it had to be someone with money. That's why I\nsuggested Quetzal.\n\nJW said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "or under what circumstances Horn came to be there. It seems likely to me\nthat positioning Silk over that manteon (he didn't want to go there) might\nhave been to get the surreptitiously placed embryos together so they could\nsupport one another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quetzal certainly had the power to arrange it this way. But it's difficult \nto explain *why* he would - if he really were making these plans 15+ years \nin advance, he could have equally arranged to put them together under other \ncircumstances. But this starts to suggest the same sort of long-term \nmicro-management that I find dubious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't strike me as micro-management at all. It strikes me as opportunistic.\nSilk joined the Charter on his own. That gave Quetzal some real control, butif\nhe had gone into politics, Q would still have had access to him. The only real\nproblem would have been if Silk had become a grocier in a small town outside\nof Viron. But the gods could have found him an arranged ascension no matter\nwhere he was. Tussah's plan could not have depended solely on Quetzal.\nAnd once again, Tussah calls Silk his son but it does not help him assume\nthe Caldeship. Thus, I say, he calls Silk his son because it is a fact, not to\nhelp people identify him (what could be more hands-off than that?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am not at all suggesting that the uneducated can't be good leaders. I am \nhowever suggesting that if you're going to make an expensive long-term \ngamble, you'd try to give the child in question every advantage possible. \nEven the rich in our own world do not make a point of sending there children \nto poor inner-city schools." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it were important to hide a child from the eyes of the powerful, then the\nbest schools might be the worst place for his welfare. The Ayuntamiento\ncertainly could not know when Tussah had implanted his \"heir\" or even\nif someone were implanting it after he died. You mentioned the question\nof whether Silk looked like Tussah. Well, I assert that Horn looked\nvery much like Tussah indeed. Putting him the in best schools probably\nwould have been murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JW said:\nI'm not sure where the term \"face of command\" comes from although I've\nseen it used a lot on the list. I don't think Typhon's powers of leadership\ncome from something special about his face. Neither so for Silk or Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris responded:\nIn this case you disagree with Typhon, then. And ultimately Typhon is the \none who arranged the pleasure-cruise; if anybody made arrangements to put \nclones on board, it would have been him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Based on Mark Millman's hint found the relevant quote on page 139 of\n\"Sword and Citadel\". What Typhon says of his face is that \"it is the face that\nmen are customed to obey\". Obviously that is not an issue on the Whorl\nunless Typhon intends the colonists to be ruled by physical representations\nof monsters." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050701040350.39903.qmail@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-30T21:03:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A rose by any other name...", "in_reply_to": "<97fae70a9880dd35ac2526b868a0d3ff@ou.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Kieran Mullen wrote:\n Second, Severian's name was chosen 13 years\nbefore Silk was \ncreated. Do you think that when Wolfe set out to\ncreate a character \nthat people whose wardrobe fans would emulate at\nsci-fi cons, he \nintended to write a pro-Gnostic work over a decade\nlater?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to diverge from this interesting discussion onto\na tangent...\n\nThe name Severian (or Severus, or Severin) crops up\nfrom time to time in other works. I have no idea if\nWolfe ever read either of them, but if he is anything\nlike me (if it's in print, I'm interested, if it has a\nreputation, I'm very interested!) he probably has.\n\nThe name of one of the villains in _Justine_ (the\nlibertine who deflowers Justine) is named Severin.\n\nThe name of the hero in _Venus in Furs_, if I remember\ncorrectly (it's been a long while) was named Severin.\n\nOne of the key supporting musicians of Siouxsie and\nthe Banshees, and her boyfriend before she broke up\nwith him and settled down with Budgie, used the stage\nname Severin. Not that this would have been a factor\nin the writing of Wolfe's novels, but I thought it\namusing.\n\nOh, and Severus (and its feminine form, Severina) were\nnot uncommon names in ancient Rome. A child named such\nwas meant to reflect upon the quality/virtue of\n\"severity,\" which today would probably best be thought\nof as \"seriousness,\" \"dignity,\" or \"having a strong\nmoral backbone.\" Severine is, I am given to\nunderstand, still occasionally used as aname for girls\nin France, although I've never met anyone with that\nname (then again, I didn't socialize much when I was\nstudying for my M.Phil a few years ago, so maybe I'm\nnot the best person to say). \n\nPersonally I think Severian might simply have been\ngiven his name because whatever guildmaster who named\nhim wanted him to embody the quality of sternness. But\nthen again, maybe not. \n\nAnd now back to the regularly scheduled programming.\n(Dare I call it the Clone Wars?)\n\n\n\n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie and Liesl and militant lactivist cult member" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050701041251.82958.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch", "address": "isobelwren at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-30T21:12:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If everyone on Urth is genetically Severian...", "in_reply_to": "<27047619.1119734120757.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "does that mean he's his own Grandpa?\n\nSorry. I had to. :)\n\n\n\n\n\nSarah Dorrance-Minch\n(in SCA, THL Isobel Wren, called \"Midori\")\n\nMother to Sophie and Liesl and militant lactivist cult member" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c57df4$95243f00$6d3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-30T21:23:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If everyone on Urth is genetically Severian...", "in_reply_to": "<20050701041251.82958.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:\ndoes that mean he's his own Grandpa?\n\nSorry. I had to. :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's been brought up here before. By me, I'm afraid, a long time ago. But\nat least it didn't involve clones. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c57e69$76449880$cd3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-07-01T11:30:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) If everyone on Urth is genetically Severian...", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c57df4$95243f00$6d3dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sarah Dorrance-Minch wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "does that mean he's his own Grandpa?\n\nSorry. I had to. :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's been brought up here before. By me, I'm afraid, a long time ago. But\nat least it didn't involve clones. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope my comments weren't misconstrued. I was expressing chagrin over the\ntheory, which I later recanted. See here:\n\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0207/1485.txt.shtml\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<32301763.1120247528810.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-07-01T12:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A rose by any other name...", "in_reply_to": "<20050701040350.39903.qmail@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to diverge from this interesting discussion onto\na tangent..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where would I be without tangents?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The name Severian (or Severus, or Severin) crops up\nfrom time to time in other works. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Weeeeeell, *Severin* is not necessarily *Severian*.\n\n1) There are saints named of Severian, of course. One martyred in North\nAfrica and one who died in 320 by having his flesh torn off by rakes.\nThere are a lot of Severus? and Severius? but that’s not quite right\n(although it is possible Wolfe had a source that called one or some of\nthem “Severian”). Everyone in the Commonwealth is named after saints.\nIn the case of the flayed Severian, *I* could develop an argument that\nlinks Severian to the flayed god of Mesoamerican mythology, but I can’t\nimagine many people going along with it.\n\n2) There is Severian, the Bishop of Gabala in Syria, who was active in\nChrysostom exiled.\n\n3) There was a dynasty of Roman emperors starting with Septimus Severus\nin the early 3rd century that are called collectively the Severan or Severian\nemperors. Their rulership was not particularly singular from roman or\nChristian church standards. The most famous is Caracalla.\n\nHowever, there ARE a couple links from the Severian dynasty to\nWolfe/New Sun: \na) Septimus, claimed (falsely) to be a son of Marcus Aurelius. There are\nof course shadows of Marcus Aurelius in the New Sun. \nb) This second one requires some understanding that Wolfe believes\nthere is evidence of direct contact over the centuries between Mesoamerica\nand ancient Asia/the Mediteranean. There was a Roman type sculpture\nfound in a pre-Hispanic Columbian temple dated\nfrom the *Severan*\nperiod. It was found in the 1930s and rediscovered in the mid-sixties.\nIt would not be surprising to me if Wolfe were aware of it.\nHere’s a link with a picture: http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/calix.htm\n\nStill #3 seems awfully tenuous to me, and as many will tell you, that's saying\nsomething.\n\n4) Finally, there is the Gnostic 2nd sect, that Irenaeus mentioned in his\nbook “Against the Heresies”:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0206/1204.txt.shtml\n\n#4 seems the strongest to me, but that’s just me. Granted that none of them\nblow any dresses up, but that's not the only Gnostic tag in the New Sun story.\n\n~ James Wynn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6018917242.20050703005012@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanis³aw Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2005-07-03T03:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A rose by any other name...", "in_reply_to": "<32301763.1120247528810.JavaMail.root@wamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Friday, July 1, 2005, 9:52:08 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nJW> ...that's not the only Gnostic tag in the New Sun story.\n\nI would like to point out that the New Sun is generally neoplatonic.\nSuch things as emanations, Aeons etc, hierarchies of angels and of\nworlds belonged to common religious heritage of all the religions of the\nMiddle East, which conquered the whole Roman Empire. (Zoroastrianism,\nJudaism, Christianity, Neoplatonism, Mitraism, Islam). Eg Kabbalah,\nwhich undoubtly influenced New Sun, has great similarities with\nneoplatonism (along with important differences, of course).\n\nEven dualism isn't specific to gnostics. The battle between Ahura\nMazda and Aryman is one of the main points of Zoroastrianism, and\nZoroastrian church persecuted Gnostics even more than Christians (more\nthan they persecuted Christians and more than Christians persecuted\nGnostics).\n\nThe special gnostic idea is different. It is the revolutionary change\nof polarities - the God which all others worship is the Devil, we have\nfound the true God.\n\n\nThis could be the point of the Long Sun, although\nnot necessarily. There are many gods there, without one ruling Evil Demiurg,\nand Pas isn't exactly devil. The revelation of Silk can be interpreted\nas well as Christian attitude towards pagan\ngods. Christians commonly claimed the so called pagan gods are really\ndemons, although there were other opinions. In the New Sun I don't see\nanything specifically Gnostic." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Stanislaus Bocian\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nJak powstaje auto? >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1898" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-07-04T19:32:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<14371091.1120001805651.JavaMail.root@wamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chris said:\nNow, on your picture Tussah is a clone of the person whose son Silk is a\nclone of. (Pardon the awful grammatical construction). This is a position \nto\ntake toward the DNA aspect; do you count it as the answer to the\npsychological question as well? Because if that's what you are implying \nthen\nyou're putting forward an even stronger assertion than I thought, since \nit\nimplies that Tussah somehow knows all this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. I am saying that Tussah KNEW he is a clone of Typhon. It is likely he\neven knew that Pas had that name on the Red Sun Whorl (the Rajan was\naware of it). Lemur knows a lot of details about the family of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is a bigger assertion than you appear to think it, at least \nbased on the cursory treatment of it so far.\n\nKnowing some details about the history of Typhon, knowing that Pas is \nTyphon, these are significant things to be sure - and one can imagine a few \nvectors this knowledge might be acquired. It seems *unlikely*, though, that \nPas himself would deliberately make it known to anyone because it simply \ndoesn't offer him any advantage.\n\nThat said, the only way I can possibly think of for Tussah to know *who* he \nwas a clone of is to get it directly from one of the gods. Presumably Pas, \nbecause Tussah's conjectured position in Pas's plan puts him at odds with \nthe other gods. [Unless, of course, ALL the cloned embryos on board are \nclones of Typhon, which would immediately tell you who you were a clone of \ngiven the knowledge that you were grown from one of those embryos. But \nyou've denied this possibility, and I don't find it especially likely \neither.] Why would Pas tell him this? Neither Typhon nor Pas seem inclined \nto invite someone into an equal partnership if they could just use them as \nan instrument instead.\n\nTelling him who Silk was supposedly a clone of seems similarly unmotivated, \nif not counterproductive. And I suspect that there would be even fewer \npeople who might have that information from the beginning.\n\nThe answers to these questions are going to have a distinct impact on just \nwhat you think was actually going *on* here.\n\nAlso, elsewhere you state more explicitly than before:\n\"I do say that SILK and TUSSAH and were part of the Plan of Pas with\nrespect to Viron. But it was not necessary for Typhon to plan it from\nUrth. Tussah's implantation could be argued to be timed with the Whorl's\narrival to Blue, but Silk's was done by Tussah after Pas's erasure.\"\n\nBut this puts Pas/Typhon in the position of doing *just* the kind of \nplanning that seems most problematic, and least likely, given the shape of \nhis overall plan from the beginning. And there seems no reason at all to go \nto the trouble of raising Tussah from an embryo and engineering his rise to \nCalde-hood, instead of just working with whoever happens to be in place at \nthe time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Funny you should say that. Go back and search the archives for the \ndiscussion\non whether Mamelta is Kypris and Silk's mother. Although, I can't remember\nwhether the arguments *assumed* that Kypris was Silk's mother and that if\nMamelta was one she had to be the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe something's wrong with the archives, or with my brain, but google is \ngiving me a set of hits that don't include this discussion. I looked for \nconjunctions of \"Mamelta\" with both \"Kypris\" and \"mother\", separately, and \nno dice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not much of a stretch to me, but that's just me. That Mamelta is Silk's\nbio-mom is exactly what I believe and it might *be* that Silk meets her\nin the Mainframe rather than Kypris, but we still have his other father to\naccount for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, assuming we are actively distinguishing between Kypris and the \nbiological person that became Kypris, suggesting that Silk meets Mamelta \nrather than Kypris in Mainframe would imply that the same would apply to his \nfather; since we know Typhon doesn't make it on the Whorl, it would imply \nthat Silk's father is someone other than Typhon. So I don't think that \ninterpretation is favorable for your purposes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand there's no apparent reason at all to put Horn where he\nwas, and no special opportunities afforded by that position, UNLESS you\ncount exposure to Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about exposure to Chenille? How about exposure to Quetzal who\nspent time in Horn's district to feed on the inhabitants. He was born well\nafter Tussah's death. It would have to be someone else who put him\nthere, and I agree it had to be someone with money. That's why I\nsuggested Quetzal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chenille? That is no better an answer than Silk - it implies \nmicro-management of her life to put her in that neighborhood, and for *no* \napparent reason. And it implies a sort of micro-management that is \nmysterious and counter-intuitive, because it lands Chenille in a brothel and \nboth Horn and Chenille in a slum so that they can be in proximity to each \nother, for.... what reason?\n\nAnd exposure to Quetzal doesn't seem any more or less likely in that \nneighborhood, nor are we given any indication that Horn and Quetzal had any \nfamiliarity with each other. So if Quetzal put him there for that purpose, \nhe apparently never followed through with it.\n\nDid Quetzal put him there to feed on, then? If so he could just as easily \nhave put his personal veal-calf in a more controlled environment.\n\nIt's possible to throw out lots of \"reasons\" to go to that much trouble to \nput a clone in Horn's position, but none of them seem to be any *good*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't strike me as micro-management at all. It strikes me as \nopportunistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Placing Horn in that neighborhood 15 years prior to the start of the story \nis not \"opportunistic\" because at the time he would have been placed there, \nthere was no significant opportunity to take advantage of there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it were important to hide a child from the eyes of the powerful, then \nthe\nbest schools might be the worst place for his welfare. The Ayuntamiento\ncertainly could not know when Tussah had implanted his \"heir\" or even\nif someone were implanting it after he died. You mentioned the question\nof whether Silk looked like Tussah. Well, I assert that Horn looked\nvery much like Tussah indeed. Putting him the in best schools probably\nwould have been murder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To fly under the radar you have to place him in the worst place you can \nfind? A nice middle-income neighborhood would have done just fine for \nconcealment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "JW said:\nI'm not sure where the term \"face of command\" comes from although I've\nseen it used a lot on the list. I don't think Typhon's powers of \nleadership\ncome from something special about his face. Neither so for Silk or Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chris responded:\nIn this case you disagree with Typhon, then. And ultimately Typhon is the\none who arranged the pleasure-cruise; if anybody made arrangements to put\nclones on board, it would have been him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Based on Mark Millman's hint found the relevant quote on page 139 of\n\"Sword and Citadel\". What Typhon says of his face is that \"it is the face \nthat\nmen are customed to obey\". Obviously that is not an issue on the Whorl\nunless Typhon intends the colonists to be ruled by physical representations\nof monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incorporating Mark's insight here creates something of a pretzel of logic \nthat is difficult to straighten out, but let me try it this way:\n\nThe first question is, did Typhon possess special genetic powers of \nleadership, or not?\n\nIf no, then Silk/Tussah (who *do* possess such special genetic abilities) \nare not of Typhon's line. So your answer here has to be \"yes\".\n\nThe second question is, if Typhon did possess special genetic powers of \nleadership, then why did he have to worry so much about his face?\n\nOne possibility is the one that has been widely assumed: that his genetic \nleadership ability manifested in some way related to his face. In which case \nyou *would* expect clones of Typhon and his son - who shared this genetic \nleadership ability - to look alike.\n\nIf Typhon's concern for his face was unrelated to this superlative \nleadership ability then it would seem like more mundane factors like \nfamiliarity provide only minor motivation to go to so much \ntrouble/discomfort, balanced as they are by the fact that as familiar as his \nface might be, the whole two-headed monster thing isn't exactly familiar (or \npositive, either). It gets points for intimidation, but a big penalty for \nanybody inclined to view him as a freak of \"nature\".\n\n[And of course even without connecting the leadership genes to facial \nfeatures, one still expects Typhon's son (if he is to have similar \nabilities) to take after his father quite a bit.]" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001301c582b1$f847e250$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-07-06T22:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am saying that Tussah KNEW he is a clone of Typhon. It is likely\nhe even knew that Pas had that name on the Red Sun Whorl (the\nRajan was aware of it). Lemur knows a lot of details about the\nfamily of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is a bigger assertion than you appear\nto think it, at least based on the cursory treatment of it so far.\nKnowing some details about the history of Typhon, knowing that Pas is\nTyphon, these are significant things to be sure - and one can imagine a few\nvectors this knowledge might be acquired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only way I can possibly think of for Tussah to know *who*\nhe was a clone of is to get it directly from one of the gods. Presumably\nPas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just supposing here, but if I were writing this story, having\nestablished Silk's remarkable perceptiveness, I would would have had Tussah\n*deduce* his nature. That said, I could imagine lots of ways for Tussah to\nknow up to and including be *told* by his guardians. Nevertheless, it is\n*almost* essential that he be aware of it (although subconscious knowledge\ncannot be ruled out since this a Wolfe story).\n\nI said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SILK and TUSSAH and were part of the Plan of Pas with respect to\nViron. But it was not necessary for Typhon to plan it from Urth. Tussah's\nimplantation could be argued to be timed with the Whorl's arrival to Blue,\nbut Silk's was done by after Pas's erasure.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this puts Pas/Typhon in the position of doing *just* the kind of\nplanning that seems most problematic...And there seems no reason at all to\ngo to the trouble of raising Tussah from an embryo and engineering his rise\nto Calde-hood, instead of just working with whoever happens to be in place\nat\nthe time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Today in Iraq, there are over a hundred thousand US soldier organizing\npatrols and public works projects. I presume this is part of the Plan of US\nGeneral Abizaid. But it is not necessary for Abizaid to have personally\nplanned the current any specific activity. He has layer upon layer of\nindividuals who are working to have his Plan succeed. They derive their\ndaily duties from that Plan, but their focuses change from day to day as\ncircumstances require.\n\nSince it is an *inequivocal* fact that the embryos *were* on the ship to\nwith added abilities to unite and direct the colonists, it seems obvious to\nme that they would start dropping those embryos a couple decades before\nthe colonists' planned departure. Who did that? I would guess the\ntechnicians at either end of the Long Sun. Typhon did not have to *plan*\nthat being done per se. It probably wasn't even his idea. The colonists on\nthe Whorl came in three types: the Cargo who maintained varying cultures\n(presumably artificially created), the Sleepers (who also had their memories\ntinkered with to prevent them overawing the Cargo), and the Embryos,\nand the embryos with their pimped out genes. But the Plan went awry.\nPas was murdered by the other Mainframe modules, Tussah--one of the hyped up\nembryos--was murdered, and some of the embryos were stolen\nand sold on the black market.\n\nTussah's implantation was *probably* part of the orderly Plan. But Silk's\nimplantation and any subsequent similarly purposeful implantations (Mucor's\ntype does count) only required parties with means to emplant them and a\ndesire to see the Plan to succeed. It was CERTAINLY not necessary for\nSilk's ascension to the Caldeship be planned from Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Silk meets Mamelta\nrather than Kypris in Mainframe would imply that the same would apply to\nhis father; since we know Typhon doesn't make it on the Whorl, it would\nimply that Silk's father is someone other than Typhon. So I don't think\nthat interpretation is favorable for your purposes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Buuuut, the father is NOT identified and Mamelta *is*. However, if\nMamelta = Kypris then Silk's bio dad is Typhon (unless you think Ty was\nbeing cuckholded)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it were important to hide a child from the eyes of the powerful, then\nthe best schools might be the worst place for his welfare.\nPutting [child who was the image of Tussah] in the best schools\nprobably would have been murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To fly under the radar you have to place him in the worst place you can\nfind? A nice middle-income neighborhood would have done just fine for\nconcealment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No it would not. The essence of middle class is social mobility. If you want\nto\nhide someone from the eyes of the powerful in a limited space (such as a\ncity), you have to place that person as far from the eyes of the powerful as\npossible...such as a neglected neighborhood. What difference would it make?\nWith the leadership clones' innate skills they could overcome any social\nobstacles to rise like a cork from the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Doesn't\nSik's ascension prove that?\nWhat was the plan in placing a clone in Horn's neighborhood?\nHave you read \"A Confederacy Of Dunces\"? There's a pivotal scene where Burma\nJones, in an act of sabotage writes information identifying his employer on\na bag of pornography. Why? How would that be sabotage? \"Because it doesn't\nbelong there,\" he says. He doesn't have a plan beyond that. By the same\ntoken, I doubt whoever implanted Horn had a specific plan for how he would\nbe used either, but such a clone would be a powerful tool and it would have\nTussah's face and it was against the Ayuntamientos perceived interests...so\nthat would be enough. Quetzal looks like a better and better choice since\nSilk was MOVED to that neighborhood by the Charter. But, truth is not really\nstated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Based on Mark Millman's hint found the relevant quote on page 139 of\n\"Sword and Citadel\". What Typhon says of his face is that \"it is the face\nthat men are customed to obey\". Obviously that is not an issue on the\nWhorl unless Typhon intends the colonists to be ruled by physical\nrepresentations of monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incorporating Mark's insight here creates something of a pretzel of logic\nthat is difficult to straighten out..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well lets start by quoting the text then:\n******************************\n\"Why should you desire to have such a thing done?\"\n\n\"That I might have life, of course...My physicians, of whom I naturally had\nthe best of many worlds, told me it might be possible for me to take a new\nbody, their first thought being to enclose my brain in the skull previously\noccupied by another. You see the flaw in that?...The face--the face! The\nface would be lost, and it is the face that men are accustomed to obey!...\nI told them it wouldn't do. Then one came who suggested that the entire\nhead might be substituted. It would even be easier, he said because the\ncomplex neutral connections controlling speech and vision would be left\nintact.\nI promised him a palatinate if he should succeed.\"\n\n\"It would appear to me--\" I began.\n\nTyphon laughed once more. \"That it would be better if the original head were\nremoved first. Yes, I always thought so myself. But the technique of making\nneural connections was difficult, and he found that the best way--all this\nwas with experimental subjects I provided for him--was to transfer only the\nvoluntary functions by surgery. When that was done, the involuntary one's\ntransferred themselves, eventually. Then the original head could be removed.\nIt would leave a scar, of course, but a shirt would cover it.\"\n\n\"But something went wrong?\" [...]\n\nMostly a matter of time.\" The terrible vigor of his voice, which had been\nunrelenting, now seemed, now seemed to wane. \"Piaton was one of my\nslaves--not the largest, but the strongest of all. We tested them. It never\noccurred to me that someone with his strength might be strong, too, in\nholding to the action of the heart...It was a period of great confusion as\nwell.\"\n******************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first question is, did Typhon possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, or not?\nIf no, then Silk/Tussah (who *do* possess such special genetic abilities)\nare not of Typhon's line. So your answer here has to be \"yes\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. Are you saying that if you had a grandchild with a genetic\ndisorder who benefited from gene therapy, that he would not be of your line\nanymore?\n\nOr are you saying that a clone who has had his genes tinkered with to some\ndegree is by definition no longer a clone? Well then what of the multi-armed\ntwin Number Five found? This is an interesting case for Sci-Fi family court,\nbut it doesn't matter in this case, because I assert:\n\n1) Tussah considered himself to be a clone of Typhon.\n2) Tussah knew Silk's genetic relation to Typhon.\n3) Tussah, therefore, called Silk \"the son not of my body\", NOT in order to\ndifferentiate his unnamed successor from all other claimants (since\nknowledge\nof that was clearly and ultimately not necessary), BUT because he considered\nit a fact. A simple fact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The second question is, if Typhon did possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, then why did he have to worry so much about his face?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I hope I shown that it is not necessary for Ty to have such special\nmanufactured powers. And the text shows that that was not the reason\nfor his concern over his face. The issue is that the people are\nACCUSTOMED to obey his face. Enclose his brain in another body\nand to that extent he is starting from scratch. Enemies might even let out\nthat he is NOT the real Typhon, but a ursurper. The power of dictators\nlay in their ability to prove that coming against them is fruitless. If\nthere\nwere any question about who was really in there. The whole farce\nwould collapse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the whole two-headed monster thing isn't exactly\nfamiliar (or positive, either)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Pas did not originally intend to have that head very long. His testimony\nstates that Piaton held on to the involuntary bodily functions longer than\nexpected and the do to all the \"confusion\" the an occasion never arose where\nit was convenient to figure out how to help it along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[And of course even without connecting the leadership genes to facial\nfeatures, one still expects Typhon's son (if he is to have similar\nabilities) to take after his father quite a bit.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sons don't always look like their fathers. Sometimes they look like their\nmothers instead. It happens. But Silk did inherit his father's blonde hair\nand physical supposed physical significance." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-07-07T18:16:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Shaving Clones", "in_reply_to": "<001301c582b1$f847e250$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Combining, as well as I can, points from two separate threads. The \ndiscussion is getting more and more unwieldy, unfortunately.\n\nRe: Cilinia and the tomb, JW said:\n\"If we presume Sev investigated every tomb, perhaps his memory is the key.\nWhy presume that? For that matter, why presume that Cilinia's tomb is\nwritten a script that Severian can read?\"\n\nWe don't need to presume he \"investigated\" every tomb in any intensive kind \nof way. The only assumption that need be made is that if there was a \nrecognizable external feature of the tomb, Severian would have seen it in \npassing - that feature need not be written in any script at all. It is an \nassumption, but an economical one. And there are no alternatives here which \ndon't rely on some sort of assumption that's even less modest than this.\n\nThis again leaves out the intriguing possibility that there is an \norganization to the way people are buried here. But ultimately a lack of \ninformation is going to prevent us from drawing any satisfactory conclusion \nabout that.\n\nJW said, concerning his position on the tomb:\n\"The reason why I hold it...is for the reason I gave: The description of its \nfinding\nis not as it should be.\"\n\nand, to me:\n\"You didn't require this proof to believe the tombs were separate in the \nfirst\nplace. It is unself-reflective to say this and not to consider that you find\nMSG's reference 'entirely convincing' only because it helps bring the\nnarrative back to a normative keel for you.\"\n\nNot quite correct. I do not require proof *in addition to the obviously \ndivergent descriptions of the two tombs in the text itself*. Now, I am quite \naware that there are always presuppositions in play when interpreting a \ntext, but my presuppositions here are not spectacular or even comment-worthy \nbecause they amount to the assumption that what is in the text is what is \nthe case and not simply \"badly written\". Especially in light of your \nstatement immediately preceding this that as far as you are concerned the \ndescription of the tombs is not the way it \"should\" be - that is, the way it \nwould have to be in light of the theory you have settled on, which is \nprecisely what was in dispute in the first place.\n\nI am not going to knock you for using abductive reasoning, we are all \nengaged in it (including me), but on this particular item I do not at all \nthink you are making a fair point.\n\n[Also some points that I would love to take up on the Rajan's appetite, but \nunfortunately there is a reference I really need that I can't get until \nsomeone gives me my books back. The gist is that on at least one occasion he \nexpresses fear/nervousness at the possible consequences of his having eaten \ntoo much that seem quite odd at face value.]\n\nBringing us back to the current thread:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm just supposing here, but if I were writing this story, having\nestablished Silk's remarkable perceptiveness, I would would have had Tussah\n*deduce* his nature. That said, I could imagine lots of ways for Tussah to\nknow up to and including be *told* by his guardians. Nevertheless, it is\n*almost* essential that he be aware of it (although subconscious knowledge\ncannot be ruled out since this a Wolfe story)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, although I'd point out that for Tussah to make a deduction here \nhe still has to have certain raw information at his disposal that would not \nhave been available to anyone outside of Mainframe that I can think of. What \nare the premises on which he'd base his deduction, and how and more \nimportantly *why* would he have that information?\n\n[Snip summary of our exchange where I express some doubt over statements \nmade over the course of a couple of threads that claim the involvement of \nTussah and Silk in the Plan of Pas \"essential\", because it implies \nmicro-managed planning, which leads to...]\n\nJW responds:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since it is an *inequivocal* fact that the embryos *were* on the ship to\nwith added abilities to unite and direct the colonists, it seems obvious to\nme that they would start dropping those embryos a couple decades before\nthe colonists' planned departure. Who did that? I would guess the\ntechnicians at either end of the Long Sun. Typhon did not have to *plan*\nthat being done per se. It probably wasn't even his idea. The colonists on\nthe Whorl came in three types: the Cargo who maintained varying cultures\n(presumably artificially created), the Sleepers (who also had their \nmemories\ntinkered with to prevent them overawing the Cargo), and the Embryos,\nand the embryos with their pimped out genes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This kind of planning doesn't bother me, if all you're saying is \"yeah, he \nplanned to dump out a bunch of embryos right about this time and hope for \nthe best\". If this is what you meant then this particular dispute may well \nbe a verbal misunderstanding. But I thought you were saying that Tussah or \nSilk - in particular - being in charge of Viron was *essential* to the \noperation of his plan for that city. And this would be a silly way to plan \nanything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas was murdered by the other Mainframe modules, Tussah--one of the hyped \nup\nembryos--was murdered, and some of the embryos were stolen\nand sold on the black market." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With what you just suggested above we need not even consider the embryos \nstolen and sold on the black market; perhaps they were made accessible to be \n\"stolen\" deliberately, by the technicians you mentioned above - it's as good \na way as any to slip them into the population." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Buuuut, the father is NOT identified and Mamelta *is*. However, if\nMamelta = Kypris then Silk's bio dad is Typhon (unless you think Ty was\nbeing cuckholded)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite what I meant here, let me rephrase. On your picture the pairings \nare Typhon/Mamelta --> Pas/Kypris. *If* you are going to find it significant \nthat he would see Mamelta as opposed to Kypris, then the father-figure you'd \nexpect to see here would be mated to Mamelta, not Kypris - regardless, the \npairing expected would *not* be Pas/Mamelta, because that pairing never \nexisted. But on the other hand if Typhon is the father then there will be no \nfigure anologous to Mamelta on the Whorl. The situation lacks the... \nsymmetry... that you might desire.\n\nRegarding why one would place an expensive embryo (the supposed \nclone-that-is-Horn) deliberately into the worst neighborhood one could find, \nI said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To fly under the radar you have to place him in the worst place you can\nfind? A nice middle-income neighborhood would have done just fine for\nconcealment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No it would not. The essence of middle class is social mobility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And god forbid he be placed in a position with social mobility, we wouldn't \nwant that would we?\n\nBut seriously, I supoose it depends on the size of the middle class but what \nare they going to do? Exterminate the middle class? Clearly they did no such \nthing. Watch for exceptionally promising young lads? That sounds like a good \nidea, and they probably did that, but here being in the middle class affords \nyou no real disadvantage - if you stand out enough to be noticed, you're \ngoing to stand out no matter where you are. In a poor neighborhood you're \nalso going to be closer to the underworld, which not-so-incidentally is also \nwhere a lot of the spies hang out.\n\nJW said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "possible...such as a neglected neighborhood. What difference would it make?\nWith the leadership clones' innate skills they could overcome any social\nobstacles to rise like a cork from the bottom of the Mariana Trench. \nDoesn't\nSik's ascension prove that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Silk's ascension most certainly was noticed. If it hadn't been so \ndownright providentially timed, he probably would have been killed in his \nsleep before rousing any kind of successful revolution. As it was he lived \nquietly and unassumingly and was brought out of his shell into circumstances \nthat were more or less immediately ready for him.\n\nBut aside from this a comparison of Silk's position in that neighborhood \nwith Horn's is not valid. Silk *walked into* that community to a position of \nmodest religious and civic leadership. And in his case, if he had been in a \nmore wealthy district he would not have been given charge of the manteion \nwhen Pike died - a more senior augur would have been rewarded with the \nposition. Horn's being \"leader of the boys\" is just not the same thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The first question is, did Typhon possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, or not?\nIf no, then Silk/Tussah (who *do* possess such special genetic abilities)\nare not of Typhon's line. So your answer here has to be \"yes\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. Are you saying that if you had a grandchild with a genetic\ndisorder who benefited from gene therapy, that he would not be of your line\nanymore?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is something of an unexpected shift. But working with your analogy, the \ndifference is that in your example we are tracing lineage through natural \ndescent/childbirth. No such relationship exists with our supposed clones. \nSomething is or is not a clone of something else based on its genes. So in \nother words, no - if the embryo doesn't have the same genes [see note below \nfor concerns on what counts as the \"same genes\"] as Typhon then:\n\n(1) it's not a \"clone of Typhon\" in a strict sense, it's just a genetically \nengineered embryo. And further than that, even if *most* of their genes were \nthe same, what you'd be saying is that most of the good parts (with the \nuber-leadership skills) are precisely the parts which *don't* come from \nTyphon.\n\n(2) it disrupts this relation of thematic equivalence you're trying to \nestablish, which we haven't debated so much (probably because it is a bit \nmore personal and more difficult to critique).\n\nI don't know whether this weaker pseudo-relationship suits your purposes or \nnot. I didn't think you'd like this as an alternative. If that's what you're \nreally suggesting, though, I stand corrected.\n\nJW, with foresight, mentions a variation of the objection:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or are you saying that a clone who has had his genes tinkered with to some\ndegree is by definition no longer a clone? Well then what of the \nmulti-armed\ntwin Number Five found?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume that we are both self-conscious of the grammatical nature of the \nargument we could have here. What makes all the difference is what you take \nto be the relevant criteria for identity in the context at hand; otherwise \nyou have a sort of sorites problem of \"how many grains of sand can you take \naway from the heap for it to still be a 'heap', how many genes can you take \naway from a clone for it to still be a 'clone'\". So with that in mind:\n\nA relation of thematic equivalence suggests very strong criteria for \nidentity here. And in this case you'd be suggesting that the most *relevant* \ngenes we could consider are precisely *not* the ones he got from Typhon.\n\nPut another way, what thematic difference could it possibly make for me to \nsuggest that a character, say Remora, got the particular genes for his hair \ncolor from Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is an interesting case for Sci-Fi family court,\nbut it doesn't matter in this case, because I assert:\n1) Tussah considered himself to be a clone of Typhon.\n2) Tussah knew Silk's genetic relation to Typhon.\n3) Tussah, therefore, called Silk \"the son not of my body\", NOT in order to\ndifferentiate his unnamed successor from all other claimants (since\nknowledge\nof that was clearly and ultimately not necessary), BUT because he \nconsidered\nit a fact. A simple fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've asserted all of this before. At the beginning, basically. But this \ndoesn't help to show that it actually works as a theory/interpretation. And \nI don't see how it bears at all on what I was saying here, because all that \nquestion was meant to do was lay out a disjunction of possibilities, p or \nnot-p. I didn't think you'd find the \"not-p\" horn of the dilemma appealing, \nbut if you want to take it up that's fine, and see above. The below was \nmeant for the \"p\" horn. [I really ought to rephrase that, but let the \nterrible jokes fly as they may.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The second question is, if Typhon did possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, then why did he have to worry so much about his face?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I hope I shown that it is not necessary for Ty to have such special\nmanufactured powers. And the text shows that that was not the reason\nfor his concern over his face." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I as much admitted all this in my original. We are not having a textual \ndispute over that here, although I deliberately did not emphasize it as you \nhave because I can see at least one interpretation which can make a case for \ndenying that this is all there is to it. The idea was that either way you \ncut it there are problems. *If* you assume that Typhon did have genetic \nleadership powers (which is the horn of the dilemma this portion was \naddressed to), the pluses and minuses concerning his face are dwarfed in \ncomparison. But this part of the discussion can be discarded entirely \nbecause, as you point out, you have embraced the line that Typhon did *not* \nhave such genetic abilities." } ] } ] }