{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4463", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4463, "subject": "Who's in Oreb", "messages": 15, "voices": 4, "first": "2005-06-24T15:11:06+00:00", "last": "2005-06-27T16:28:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<28795769.1119651065148.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:11:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pas in Oreb? I don't think so. That was Scylla. (RTTW, 348)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but Orebs possession by Scylla did not occur until after Pas's\nresurrection (RTTW 359-360). Echina, Hieros, Molpe, and Scylla\ndid not start possessing animals until they became really desperate\nto escape Pas. \n[Incidentally, it is at the location I cited that the Rajan denies Pas\nintended to rule Blue in person.]\n\nI'm referring the time when Silk first bought Oreb. As you recall,\nOreb died just before Silk could sacrifice it, and then was\ninexplicably resurrected. Since *someone* was possessing that\nbird I'd say Pas and Kypris were the most likely candidates. But\nSilk mentions that night choughs are signitory birds of Pas. Well? \n\nGranted at first glance it would make more mythological sense to have\nPas hide in a black ram. Since that is where Zeus hid when Typhon\ndrove the gods off Olympus. But Pas is also thematically assigned to\nApollo (as is Hieros at times) so a raven is not really off script either.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f761737050624151761eaa506@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:17:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<28795769.1119651065148.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/24/05, James Wynn wrote:\nI'm referring the time when Silk first bought Oreb. As you recall,\nOreb died just before Silk could sacrifice it, and then was\ninexplicably resurrected. Since *someone* was possessing that\nbird [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's rather a large assumption. There is only one known-for-sure\nexample of a god of Mainframe possessing an animal (Scylla-in-\nOreb, forsooth and fershoor), and that was in extreme circumstances.\nPas at this time was _already_ shattered and scattered, and, while\nKypris was not, nothing in her early encounter with Silk suggests\nthat she was in particular fear at that time.\n\nIs there any reason to suppose that Oreb was possessed, rather\nthan, say, playing dead?\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29944422.1119653282485.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:48:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1f761737050624151761eaa506@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm referring the time when Silk first bought Oreb. As you recall,\nOreb died just before Silk could sacrifice it, and then was\ninexplicably resurrected. Since *someone* was possessing that\nbird [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's rather a large assumption. There is only one known-for-sure\nexample of a god of Mainframe possessing an animal (Scylla-in-\nOreb, forsooth and fershoor), and that was in extreme circumstances.\nPas at this time was _already_ shattered and scattered, and, while\nKypris was not, nothing in her early encounter with Silk suggests\nthat she was in particular fear at that time.\n\nIs there any reason to suppose that Oreb was possessed, rather\nthan, say, playing dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"playing dead\" is no small clue. Silk is a trained and practiced\n\"butcher\". He deals with dead animals all the time. He had every\nreason to want Oreb NOT to be dead. It was a terrible\ndisheartening event for the bird to die mid-sacrifice. If Silk was\nconvinced Oreb was dead, I think his assessment is trustworthy.\nHis death and resurrection can hardly be termed anything but a miracle.\n\n\nMaybe I'm wrong about who was in there. I can't imagine who else it\nmight be because even though Kypris does tell Silk she's on the run,\nI agree she does not seem to be as desperate as the the renegade\ngods seem to have been when they fled into animals. Also, black birds\nare signatories of Pas. Also, in a literary sense, the bird's death and\nresurrection foreshadow Pas's same. \n\nBut maybe I could be wrong. After all, we don't have any proof to the\ndegree we get regarding Scylla in RTTW. Or maybe even the Outsider\ndid it. But that was a significant event that was never\nexplained in the story. And I think my explanation is the most\nprobable.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<18879431.1119653513507.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T15:51:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<29944422.1119653282485.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm referring the time when Silk first bought Oreb. As you recall,\nOreb died just before Silk could sacrifice it, and then was\ninexplicably resurrected. Since *someone* was possessing that\nbird [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's rather a large assumption. There is only one known-for-sure\nexample of a god of Mainframe possessing an animal (Scylla-in-\nOreb, forsooth and fershoor), and that was in extreme circumstances.\nPas at this time was _already_ shattered and scattered, and, while\nKypris was not, nothing in her early encounter with Silk suggests\nthat she was in particular fear at that time.\n\nIs there any reason to suppose that Oreb was possessed, rather\nthan, say, playing dead?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"playing dead\" is no small clue. Silk is a trained and practiced\n\"butcher\". He deals with dead animals all the time. He had every\nreason to want Oreb NOT to be dead. It was a terrible\ndisheartening event for the bird to die mid-sacrifice. If Silk was\nconvinced Oreb was dead, I think his assessment is trustworthy.\nHis death and resurrection can hardly be termed anything but a miracle.\n\n\nMaybe I'm wrong about who was in there. I can't imagine who else it\nmight be because even though Kypris does tell Silk she's on the run,\nI agree she does not seem to be as desperate as the the renegade\ngods seem to have been when they fled into animals. Also, black birds\nare signatories of Pas. Also, in a literary sense, the bird's death and\nresurrection foreshadow Pas's same. \n\nBut maybe I could be wrong. After all, we don't have any proof to the\ndegree we get regarding Scylla in RTTW. Or maybe even the Outsider\ndid it. But that was a significant event that was never\nexplained in the story. And I think my explanation is the most\nprobable.\n\n~ Crush " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c5794f$532f1920$ea3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-24T23:30:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<18879431.1119653513507.JavaMail.root@wamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nYes, but Orebs possession by Scylla did not occur until after Pas's\nresurrection (RTTW 359-360). Echina, Hieros, Molpe, and Scylla\ndid not start possessing animals until they became really desperate\nto escape Pas.\n[Incidentally, it is at the location I cited that the Rajan denies Pas\nintended to rule Blue in person.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what the point of that last statement was, but that's not quite\nwhat is said. I'm not going to quote it all; readers can read it for\nthemselves, pages 361-362. In short, Scylla is reported by Silkhorn to have\nbelieved that \"Pas would not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to go\nthere himself to rule them.\" Silkhorn thought she was wrong. Eventually,\nSilkhorn says, \"Pas has not yet come, perhaps. Or perhaps he has, and Oreb\nsimply failed to find the place that Pas found or created.\" And, later,\n\"Then I believe Pas knows that as the years pass we will come to realize how\nmuch we need him, and bring him.\" [ . . .] \"The same impulse [that sent Horn\nto find Silk] will be applied to Pas in another generation, surely.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<16978306.1119720333858.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-25T10:25:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<001001c5794f$532f1920$ea3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Incidentally, it is at the location I cited that the Rajan denies Pas\nintended to rule Blue in person.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy answered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what the point of that last statement was, but that's not quite\nwhat is said. I'm not going to quote it all; readers can read it for\nthemselves, pages 361-362. In short, Scylla is reported by Silkhorn to have\nbelieved that \"Pas would not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to go\nthere himself to rule them.\" Silkhorn thought she was wrong. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are wrong; self-evidently so. That is exactly what the text said.\nWhy are you quibbling about it? The point of that statement was that the Rajan,\nwho arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone, flatly\ndenies that Pas felt it personally necessary or desirable to rule the colonies\nin person. He implies that he has special insight into this matter that he\ncould have made available to Scylla if she had asked.\nThus the idea that Pas would not want clones or other hyped-up\nembryos ruling in his stead is not true. Being of a generous nature, I\nwill quote it for readers:\n\n\"She possessed Oreb, as I told you, because she knew he would soon be\nbrought [to Blue]. She felt sure--she told me this one night--that Pas would\nwould not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to go there himself\nto rule them. 'Lord it' was the phrase she used. She was wrong, as I could\nhave told her.\" [361 RTTW]\n \nSee? Not that hard. That aside was not meant for you, Roy. Sorry\nfor the confusion. It was an *aside* regarding something Chris and I\nhad discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eventually,\nSilkhorn says, \"Pas has not yet come, perhaps. Or perhaps he has, and Oreb\nsimply failed to find the place that Pas found or created.\" And, later,\n\"Then I believe Pas knows that as the years pass we will come to realize how\nmuch we need him, and bring him.\" [ . . .] \"The same impulse [that sent Horn\nto find Silk] will be applied to Pas in another generation, surely.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of which says nothing about Pas's *intent*. \n\nHowever, once again I'm glad it was you and not me that cited the quote\n\"Pas has not yet come, perhaps. Or perhaps he has, and Oreb\nsimply failed to find the place that Pas found or created.\"\n\nHeh heh heh, or perhaps he has come to Blue *indeed* (cough! Horn).\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705062512447320af11@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T12:44:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<16978306.1119720333858.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/25/05, James Wynn wrote:\n\nYou are wrong; self-evidently so. That is exactly what the text said.\nWhy are you quibbling about it? The point of that statement was that the \nRajan, who arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More than _Scylla_, James?\n\n_Really_?\n\nYeah. right...\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20061043.1119731588299.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-25T13:33:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705062512447320af11@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The point of that statement was that the \nRajan, who arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than _Scylla_, James?\n_Really_?\nYeah. right..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Rajan seems quite comfortable that he knows more about this issue\nthan Scylla. He doesn't elaborate why, but there is something about\nhis assuredness makes me believe him. And certainly, at this juncture\nhe *does* contain a good deal of Pas within him. Anyway, Scylla\nwas wrong in this case that Pas would only permit the colonists to come\nto Blue if He could rule them directly and the Rajan says he knew\nin advance that it wasn't so. Maybe the Rajan was lying or bragging,\nbut I don't think so.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c57a04$209942a0$893ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-25T21:05:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<20061043.1119731588299.JavaMail.root@wamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "[Incidentally, it is at the location I cited that the Rajan denies Pas\nintended to rule Blue in person.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy answered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what the point of that last statement was, but that's not\nquite\nwhat is said. I'm not going to quote it all; readers can read it for\nthemselves, pages 361-362. In short, Scylla is reported by Silkhorn to\nhave\nbelieved that \"Pas would not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to\ngo\nthere himself to rule them.\" Silkhorn thought she was wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are wrong; self-evidently so. That is exactly what the text said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly. Silkhorn did not deny that \"Pas intended to rule Blue in person\", as\nyou claimed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why are you quibbling about it? The point of that statement was that the\nRajan,\nwho arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone, flatly\ndenies that Pas felt it personally necessary or desirable to rule the\ncolonies\nin person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That statement says no such thing, exactly or otherwise. The statement\npurports to express a conditional belief of Scylla's. It says nothing about\nwhat Silkhorn may have thought about Pas' intentions, one way or another, to\nrule Blue. What Silkhorn disagreed with, it seems to me, is the condition\nScylla believed would have kept Blue (and Green) from being colonized at\nall. That condition was that Pas had to be there, somehow. Silkhorn knew,\nfor a fact, that both Blue and Green _had_ been colonized. He also had no\nreason (and therefor neither do we readers) to believe that Pas was present\non either planet, in any form. Thus Scylla was wrong, in his opinion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He implies that he has special insight into this matter that he\ncould have made available to Scylla if she had asked.\nThus the idea that Pas would not want clones or other hyped-up\nembryos ruling in his stead is not true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There you show where your bias lies. You _want_ your theories to be true.\nSilkhorn's disagreement with Scylla's assessment says nothing about Pas'\nproclivities for ruling the colonies via clones or bodies grown from\nenhanced embryos. Implications are one thing, but they have to take a back\nseat to what was actually written.\n\nI didn't call you a liar. All I said was \"that's not quite what is said\". I\nstand by that.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20380467.1119813361847.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-26T12:16:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<001201c57a04$209942a0$893ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"She possessed Oreb, as I told you, because she knew he would soon be\nbrought [to Blue]. She felt sure--she told me this one night--that Pas would\nwould not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to go there himself\nto rule them. 'Lord it' was the phrase she used. She was wrong, as I could\nhave told her.\" [361 RTTW]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush said:\n[Incidentally, it is at the location I cited that the Rajan denies Pas\nINTENDED to rule Blue in person.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy answered:\nThat's not quite what is said. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush replied:\nYou are wrong; self-evidently so. That is exactly what the text said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hardly. Silkhorn did not deny that \"Pas intended to rule Blue in person\",\nas you claimed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me rest my forehead on this cool desk for a moment. There. That's\nbetter.\n\nI reiterate:\n\"[Cilinia] felt sure...that Pas would WOULD NOT have peopled Blue UNLESS\nhe had some way to go there himself to rule them....SHE WAS WRONG,\nas I could have told her.\" [emphasis mine]\n\nAre you splitting the hair between \"Pas had NO plan to rule Blue in\nperson\", and \"Pas MIGHT have preferred to rule them in person \n(although the text AFAIK never says that WAS his intention)\nbut he would not have insisted on it.\"?\n\nFine. Split away. But I don't need nearly as fine a microscope to split\nthis one:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't call you a liar. All I said was \"that's not quite what is said\".\nI stand by that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't need to be a major league centerfielder to catch the gist of your\nremark that I was subverting the text in some undeclared subtle or not\nso subtle way. Take out \"undeclared\" and that's all fair game, but\nwhen doing that you could have posted the full relevant text rather\nthan pull a sentence from it and then summarize what the Rajan's\ntake on it was -- and then\"leave it to the readers\" to look it up. It\nwasn't a long reference and you had no problem quoting other\nreferences. A nasty shot from the bushes IMO, and I'll stand by\nthat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush said:\nHe implies that he has special insight into this matter that he\ncould have made available to Scylla if she had asked.\nThus the idea that Pas would not want clones or other hyped-up\nembryos ruling in his stead is not true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy responded:\nThere you show where your bias lies.\nYou _want_ your theories to be true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you have to cast around far to find out where my biases\nlie. And I'm impressed to learn you are disinterested in whether your\nopinions are true or not. But this being untrue would hardly undermine\nany theory I have. I just happen to think it IS true, otherwise why\nsupply the hyped-embryos (plural) to the Whorl? That's my opinion.\n\n~ Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-26T13:51:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705062512447320af11@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To take an opportunity to return to my own speculation from earlier, this \nwhole exchange reinforces my original conviction that the Rajan at that \npoint had access to, or had currently assimilated, some elements of Pas - \nthis can be the only real source of his confidence in asserting he could \nhave told her differently. And again this points to the possibility that he \nknew full well who Severian was.\n\nAs far the dispute that's going on here, while Dan'l is correct about the \nstrict semantic content of the exchange, I think he's incorrect in assuming \nthat Scylla would know her father better. She was a *child*, and \nrealistically how long was it before you really understood your own parents? \nI have to admit for my own part that I am still discovering things I never \nunderstood about my father until I reached adulthood. And Scylla's exposure \nto her father was likely to be quite minimal due to his position, as well - \nnot to mention her personal resentment is going to interfere.\n\nIn any event I thought we were generally agreed that Typhon did not \nassociate personal identity with electrical impulses capable of uploading, \nso the presence of Pas on the Whorl, embodied or not, would never have \nserved to satisfy any desire to personally lord it over the colony because \nTyphon would not have considered Pas to be Typhon. So the Rajan seems to be \non fairly solid ground here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/25/05, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are wrong; self-evidently so. That is exactly what the text said.\nWhy are you quibbling about it? The point of that statement was that the\nRajan, who arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than _Scylla_, James?\n\n_Really_?\n\nYeah. right...\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705062616353aa3e1e3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-26T16:36:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/26/05, Chris wrote:\nAs far the dispute that's going on here, while Dan'l is correct about the\nstrict semantic content of the exchange, I think he's incorrect in assuming\nthat Scylla would know her father better. She was a *child*, and\nrealistically how long was it before you really understood your own parents?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She was a child when she was scanned. She has spent three hundred\nyears with him in Mainframe.\n\nI don't claim that she has \"grown up\" in that time, for I don't know\nwhether that would be possible (either in the \"real\" world or in the\nLupine universe-of-discourse); but I'd be inclined to suspect that \nshe's learned a lot about her Da in that time. She is not, after all,\nstupid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Scylla's exposure\nto her father was likely to be quite minimal due to his position, as well -\nnot to mention her personal resentment is going to interfere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, this would be true of Cilinia, but not, I think, of Scylla-in-\nMainframe: and that's who makes the statement we're dealing\nwith here.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23421721.1119911138609.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-27T15:25:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705062616353aa3e1e3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I will note that I said that the Rajan \"ARGUABLY knows AS MUCH\n*or* more about Pas than anyone\". \n\nI don't deny there is an argument to be made that others know more.\nBut he DOES seem rather confident regarding his knowledge in this\ncase.\n\nJames Wynn\n\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSent: Jun 26, 2005 7:35 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Who's in Oreb" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/26/05, Chris wrote:\nAs far the dispute that's going on here, while Dan'l is correct about the\nstrict semantic content of the exchange, I think he's incorrect in assuming\nthat Scylla would know her father better. She was a *child*, and\nrealistically how long was it before you really understood your own parents?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She was a child when she was scanned. She has spent three hundred\nyears with him in Mainframe.\n\nI don't claim that she has \"grown up\" in that time, for I don't know\nwhether that would be possible (either in the \"real\" world or in the\nLupine universe-of-discourse); but I'd be inclined to suspect that \nshe's learned a lot about her Da in that time. She is not, after all,\nstupid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Scylla's exposure\nto her father was likely to be quite minimal due to his position, as well -\nnot to mention her personal resentment is going to interfere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, this would be true of Cilinia, but not, I think, of Scylla-in-\nMainframe: and that's who makes the statement we're dealing\nwith here.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506271540bae5b68@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-27T15:40:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<23421721.1119911138609.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I agree that the ... unreliable narrator, who is in complete\ndenial about his own identity ... does indeed seem very\nconfident about this.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/27/05, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, I will note that I said that the Rajan \"ARGUABLY knows AS MUCH\n*or* more about Pas than anyone\".\n\nI don't deny there is an argument to be made that others know more.\nBut he DOES seem rather confident regarding his knowledge in this\ncase.\n\nJames Wynn\n\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSent: Jun 26, 2005 7:35 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Who's in Oreb\n\nOn 6/26/05, Chris wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far the dispute that's going on here, while Dan'l is correct about the\nstrict semantic content of the exchange, I think he's incorrect in assuming\nthat Scylla would know her father better. She was a *child*, and\nrealistically how long was it before you really understood your own parents?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She was a child when she was scanned. She has spent three hundred\nyears with him in Mainframe.\n\nI don't claim that she has \"grown up\" in that time, for I don't know\nwhether that would be possible (either in the \"real\" world or in the\nLupine universe-of-discourse); but I'd be inclined to suspect that\nshe's learned a lot about her Da in that time. She is not, after all,\nstupid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Scylla's exposure\nto her father was likely to be quite minimal due to his position, as well -\nnot to mention her personal resentment is going to interfere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, this would be true of Cilinia, but not, I think, of Scylla-in-\nMainframe: and that's who makes the statement we're dealing\nwith here.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<28082359.1119914893601.JavaMail.root@wamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-27T16:28:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Who's in Oreb", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506271540bae5b68@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nWell, I will note that I said that the Rajan \"ARGUABLY knows AS MUCH\n*or* more about Pas than anyone\".\n\nI don't deny there is an argument to be made that others know more.\nBut he DOES seem rather confident regarding his knowledge in this\ncase." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l said:\nYes, I agree that the ... unreliable narrator, who is in complete\ndenial about his own identity ... does indeed seem very\nconfident about this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, all of Wolfe's narrators are unreliable to some extent and his identity\nis rather ambiguous so his denial is not *complete* nor *entirely* wrong.\n\nBut leaving that aside, in this case, after a year of experimentation by\nScylla, he has had his beliefs about Pas exonerated. \n\n~ James\n\n\n\"My name is not Silk...It has never been Silk.\"\n\n\"Was this you, Incanto? Were you on Green?\"\n\n\"I shook my head and told him it had been someone else, a man whose\nname I have forgotten, a man who wore a ring with a white stone. \nMy own name is Horn, no matter what Oreb may say.\" \n~ \"In Green's Jungles\"" } ] } ] }