{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4466", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4466, "subject": "The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2005-06-25T14:56:43+00:00", "last": "2005-06-30T14:21:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-25T14:56:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In marshalling his various arguments about the sons of Typhon, cloned or \notherwise, the winsome Mr. Wynn has written \"there is still the fact that \n[Severian's] crypt is Typhon's family mausoleum.\" But is this really so? I \nfor one have always found this assumption to be more than a little troubling \nand not just because it smacks of total retconning (I defy anyone to point \nout a shred of evidence in support of the linked family tree theory in \neither of the first two Sun series), but also because there's a fair amount \nof textual evidence that leads me to believe that the mausoleum Severian \nvisits with Horn & company is altogether different from the one he visits in \nthe early chapters of SHADOW.\n\nPlease bear with me, as I try to make my case.\n\nFirst to Chapter 19 of RETURN, as Horn tells Severian:\n\n---------------------------\n\"This girl was a sort of princess here on your whorl. Her name was Cilinia. \nHave you heard of her?\"\n\nThe boy said he had not.\n\n\"She died here many years ago--many centuries, I believe. Now she must find \nher grave...Will you help us?\"\n\nHe did, too. He took us to an old stone building where there were lots of \ncoffins. They were supposed to be up on stone shelves, but most of them were \nnot, and a lot were empty.\"\n--------------------------\n\nNow then for the necessary followup questions: why would Severian, who has \nnever heard of Princess Cilinia, assume that she is buried in the little \ncrypt he has so come to favor over the years? While he is tall and may \nperhaps fancy himself the son of an exultant, nowhere that I can remember \ndoes he fantasize about being the lost scion of some royal family. Isn't it \ntherefore much more likely that he takes Horn and his group to one of the \nbigger, fancier mausoleums in the necropolis--one befitting a princess of \nsome centuries past? If there's any sort of correlation with Egyptian tombs, \nwe might also expect such a crypt to have been looted over time, especially \nin a country where quakes may make sealed doors problematical. Notice as \nwell the rather unspecific \"lots of coffins,\" most of which are not up on \nthe stone shelves, and many of which are empty. In Chapter 2 of SHADOW, \nhowever, observe how Severian writes, \"Neither the closed coffins nor the \nopen ones constituted the attraction of the place...Rather, it was the \nsmallness of the room, the thick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow \nwindow with its one bar, together with the faithless door that remained \neternally ajar.\" Moreover, \"two empty coffins lay on the floor. Three more, \ntoo heavy for me to shift and still intact, waited on the shelves along one \nwall.\" Notice the count here: five coffins total, two of which are empty and \nlay on the floor--and yet by Hoof's count, the mausoleum visited in WHORL \ncontains *lots* of coffins, *many of which* are not on the shelves, and \n*most of which* are empty. Given the size of the two respective crypts and \nthe number of open and closed and shelved caskets in each, clearly they \ncannot be the same.\n\nIn addition, as I believe Marc Arimani has already pointed out, what does \nthe device graved on the bronze door of Severian's crypt (the fountain, ship \nvolant, and rose) have to do with Typhon the Great or his family? Nothing, \nwhereas all three, as we shall see, clearly resonate with events in \nSeverian's life.\n\nSo then why does Wolfe plant the suggestion that the two families may be \nrelated--an interesting idea in itself and one initially proposed by the \nlong absent Mr. Andre-Driussi? The same reason he locates a gaint undersea \nwall on Blue and has Horn periodically abstaining from eating. For \nmisdirection, which he loves--apparently as much as red herring.\n\nI may be wrong in this (note to site administrator: the Urth search \nfunctions pretty much sucks in my opinion), but hasn't Wolfe written a short \nstory about Typhon, yet to be published in Peter Crowther's POSTSCRIPTS, \nentitled \"Comber?\" Perhaps Dr. Nick Gevers could confirm or deny. If so, \nperhaps it will answer many of the questions resolving around Typhon--or \nknowing Mr. Wolfe's penchant for devilry generate hundreds more.\n\nMSG (no relation to the Glutamates)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1183006.1119818488705.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-26T13:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MourningS Glory says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In marshalling his various arguments about the sons of Typhon, cloned or \notherwise, the winsome Mr. Wynn has written \"there is still the fact that \n[Severian's] crypt is Typhon's family mausoleum.\" But is this really so? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Then MSG notes the following questions, which I will attempt an answer\nwith the understanding that I'm definitely \"behind the eight ball\" \nin this case.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1)Why would Severian, who has \nnever heard of Princess Cilinia, assume that she is buried in the little \ncrypt he has so come to favor over the years? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and that was my expectation. But there is something \"off\" about the\nnarration in this case. They don't \"search\" for a mausoleum, \nhe *takes* them to one. I would have expected Cilinia, actually, to\nfind it. That's not the way it happens, and if the crypt is not Severians\nthe telling is all wrong.\n\nI'm not certain why they would be in a \"little crypt\" (Severian\nsays the room was small, not the monument). But I'm most surprised to\nfind her buried with any honors at all considering that she seems to have\nbeen executed for betraying her father. And a large mausoleum does not\nnecessarily denote the oldest or most important. There is an infamous\namount of \"oneupsmanship\" in mausoleum building." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Isn't it therefore much more likely that he takes Horn and his group\nto one of the bigger, fancier mausoleums in the necropolis--one befitting\na princess of some centuries past? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, something like that is what I would have expected. But then there\nought to have been a search *among the large ones* and Severian would\nnot have been expected to take the lead in picking it out, especially with\nas little to go on regarding Cilinia's past as he had. He couldn't even SEE\nafter all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3)...As I believe Marc Arimani has already pointed out, what does \nthe device graved on the bronze door of Severian's crypt (the fountain, ship \nvolant, and rose) have to do with Typhon the Great or his family? Nothing, \nwhereas all three, as we shall see, clearly resonate with events in \nSeverian's life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, we don't really know that the symbols on the crypt have NOTHING to do\nwith Typhon's family. Would we know what those symbols meant if Wolfe had\nnot written \"Urth of the New Sun\"? They are still rather tenous and it seems to\nme Severian found meaning IN the symbols rather than the symbols having\nbeen designed after the fact. I thought that was the part of meaning of his\nfamous quote about symbols:\n\"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are\ntheir creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\"\n\nAnd has anyone theorized how this person in the tomb is *actually* Severian?\n(perhaps if it were Apu Punchau's crypt...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) Notice as \nwell the rather unspecific \"lots of coffins,\" most of which are not up on \nthe stone shelves, and many of which are empty. Given the size of the two\nrespective crypts and the number of open and closed and shelved caskets in\neach, clearly they cannot be the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ouch. \nThe \"size of the crypt\" is not described in the text, however Hoof's\noverall take on the number and his description of the layout of the coffins\nis a difficult (although not insurmountable) difference. It would be cheating\nfor me to say \"well, Wolfe made a mistake, here\". I don't have answer to\nthis. Nor can I relinquish my discomfort with the description of how the crypt\nwas found. However, you have proven that fingering Severian's crypt as\nCilinia's is not as obvious as I asserted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So then why does Wolfe plant the suggestion that the two families may be \nrelated--an interesting idea in itself and one initially proposed by the \nlong absent Mr. Andre-Driussi? The same reason he locates a gaint undersea \nwall on Blue and has Horn periodically abstaining from eating. For \nmisdirection, which he loves--apparently as much as red herring." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly agree he loves misdirection in his answers to questions regarding\nhis books, however, now we are stuck in a loop like the one Chris accused me\nof making from Wolfe's answer regarding Silk's \"ancestry\". If the hints of\nconnection between Severian and Typhon, the giant undersea wall on Blue,\nand the Rajan's fasting (until the Spring) are misdirections, then they are\nred-herrings. If they are clues, then they have narrative import.\nAnd vice versa vice versa.\n\nbtw: I still don't think *my* loop is as eternal as this one.\n\nBut if it is cheating for me to wave my hands and say \"Wolfe goofed here\",\nhow can we permit every reference that gives us serious difficulty to be\nchunked in the \"red-herring\" bin?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I may be wrong in this (note to site administrator: the Urth search \nfunctions pretty much sucks in my opinion), but hasn't Wolfe written a short \nstory about Typhon, yet to be published in Peter Crowther's POSTSCRIPTS, \nentitled \"Comber?\" Perhaps Dr. Nick Gevers could confirm or deny. If so, \nperhaps it will answer many of the questions resolving around Typhon--or \nknowing Mr. Wolfe's penchant for devilry generate hundreds more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember Michael Andre-Driussi saying he had convinced Wolfe to write\nsuch a story. I was not aware he had started such a story. \n\nApparently \"Comber\" is published, and I remember some discussion about it.\nhttp://www.pspublishing.co.uk/cat/ps3.asp\n\nI don't think it was Typhon-related.\n\n~ James Wynn\n\n\"I examined his face and meditated on my own as I saw it in the polished metal. My straight nose, deep-set eyes, and sunken cheeks were much like his, and I longed to know if he too had dard hair.\"\n-- Severian contemplating a corpse in his mausoleum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050627043601.98736.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-06-26T21:36:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": "<1183006.1119818488705.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nMourningS Glory says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3)...As I believe Marc Arimani has already pointed\nout, what does \nthe device graved on the bronze door of Severian's\ncrypt (the fountain, ship \nvolant, and rose) have to do with Typhon the Great\nor his family? Nothing, \nwhereas all three, as we shall see, clearly\nresonate with events in \nSeverian's life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, we don't really know that the symbols on the\ncrypt have NOTHING to do\nwith Typhon's family. Would we know what those\nsymbols meant if Wolfe had\nnot written \"Urth of the New Sun\"? They are still\nrather tenous and it seems to\nme Severian found meaning IN the symbols rather than\nthe symbols having\nbeen designed after the fact. > " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And has anyone theorized how this person in the tomb\nis *actually* Severian?\n(perhaps if it were Apu Punchau's crypt...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I have. It is Ymar's tomb, he's the only other\nAutarch to fly to Yesod, he was a member of the Guild,\nand he and Severian are *somehow* the same person, if\nnot a clone then somehow the way Able and Arnthor are\nthe same in WK. This \"twinning\" is a persistent theme\nof Wolfe's. Ymar is surely the bastard son of Typhon.\n Why else would anyone support him as autarch? \nLegitimacy of succession is very important and almost\nthe only way for a boy to become a ruler.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506270924104194f7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-27T09:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": "<20050627043601.98736.qmail@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 6/26/05, don doggett wrote:\nAnd has anyone theorized how this person in the tomb\nis *actually* Severian?\n(perhaps if it were Apu Punchau's crypt...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I have. It is Ymar's tomb, he's the only other\nAutarch to fly to Yesod," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm .... no, Sev's immediate predecessor did, and\ngot his nuts nipped.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-30T11:22:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": "<1183006.1119818488705.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MSG asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1)Why would Severian, who has\nnever heard of Princess Cilinia, assume that she is buried in the little\ncrypt he has so come to favor over the years?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and that was my expectation. But there is something \"off\" about the\nnarration in this case. They don't \"search\" for a mausoleum,\nhe *takes* them to one. I would have expected Cilinia, actually, to\nfind it. That's not the way it happens, and if the crypt is not Severians\nthe telling is all wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we take Severian's memory for granted, then he should remember *all* of \nthe tombs he's been around with a high degree of detail, and could lead them \nto one of those just as easily as he could lead them to his own, given a \nbasic description (and one can assume that Typhon's tomb will be distinctive \nin some way). And I think this is a fairly unproblematic answer.\n\nAesthetically I prefer a slightly less unproblematic answer. I like to think \nthat there is a deep (and possibly unplanned) logic to the way things work \nin Nessus. Thus the passage of time can be inferred by the movement of the \nborder between populated/unpopulated areas of the city, etc. It wouldn't be \nunreasonable to suggest that burials follow a pattern as well, such that \ngiven certain details of a person and when they lived, you might predict \nwhere they'd be buried. I admit this is unlikely, but it presents a picture \nof a sort of well-ordered Library of the Dead that somehow feels in accord \nwith my overall impression of the city." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ouch.\nThe \"size of the crypt\" is not described in the text, however Hoof's\noverall take on the number and his description of the layout of the coffins\nis a difficult (although not insurmountable) difference. It would be \ncheating\nfor me to say \"well, Wolfe made a mistake, here\". I don't have answer to\nthis. Nor can I relinquish my discomfort with the description of how the \ncrypt\nwas found. However, you have proven that fingering Severian's crypt as\nCilinia's is not as obvious as I asserted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do find this point entirely convincing. I do not see any way you can \nreasonably hold on to the idea that the two tombs are the same. On the other \nhand I also don't see why you should need to hold on to it. Severian may \nwell have several crypts (or unmarked burial plots) within the city, not to \nmention Apu Punchau's, etc. This element seems to be one that you like \nbecause it adds depth to your interpretation, rather than being a necessary \nsupport." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of making from Wolfe's answer regarding Silk's \"ancestry\". If the hints of\nconnection between Severian and Typhon, the giant undersea wall on Blue,\nand the Rajan's fasting (until the Spring) are misdirections, then they are\nred-herrings. If they are clues, then they have narrative import.\nAnd vice versa vice versa." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apropos of nothing (much), I wasn't aware there was even a controversy \nregarding the Rajan's fasting. It always seemed to me straightforward that \nhe was disciplining his appetites, out of awareness that the inhumi picked \nup their excessive appetites from us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if it is cheating for me to wave my hands and say \"Wolfe goofed here\",\nhow can we permit every reference that gives us serious difficulty to be\nchunked in the \"red-herring\" bin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With great trepidation? I don't know, I don't think there's a good answer \nfor this. All we can do is try to be as sensitive as possible to how serious \na goof we are ascribing to him, and how likely/unlikely it is for such a \nthing to be deliberate or not. On one end of the scale I would put items \nlike the \"Garsecg/Garvaon\" typo. Beyond that I don't think there is any \nplace we can draw the line with full confidence.\n\nWith the case of the tombs, if there is an error it is non-trivial; there is \nno flat textual contradiction involved; and even with the theory-bound \nobjection you have, the objection itself is non-critical to the theory. So I \ndon't see any real motivation to say that the tomb description is a goof." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14205555.1120166475112.JavaMail.root@wamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-30T14:21:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Typhon-Severian Family Tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris said:\nIf we take Severian's memory for granted, then he should remember *all* of \nthe tombs he's been around with a high degree of detail, and could lead them \nto one of those just as easily as he could lead them to his own, given a \nbasic description (and one can assume that Typhon's tomb will be distinctive \nin some way). And I think this is a fairly unproblematic answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If we presume Sev investigated every tomb, perhaps his memory is the key. \nWhy presume that? For that matter, why presume that Cilinia's tomb is\nwritten a script that Severian can read?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nIt would be cheating for me to say \"well, Wolfe made a mistake, here\".\nI don't have answer to this. Nor can I relinquish my discomfort with the\ndescription of how the crypt was found. However, you have proven that\nfingering Severian's crypt as Cilinia's is not as obvious as I asserted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To which Chris responded:\nI do find this point [the number and his description of the layout of the\ncoffins] entirely convincing. I do not see any way you can \nreasonably hold on to the idea that the two tombs are the same. On the other \nhand I also don't see why you should need to hold on to it. Severian may \nwell have several crypts (or unmarked burial plots) within the city, not to \nmention Apu Punchau's, etc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reason why I hold it...is for the reason I gave: The description of its finding\nis not as it should be. I won't argue Wolfe did not carefully read his \"New Sun\"\ndescription of the tomb carefully before writing Hoof's, but that is not\ninconceivable. Another option, is that this is not a tomb we have met before\nin the Sun cycle, but the passage is badly written...which is also\nconceivable. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This element seems to be one that you like \nbecause it adds depth to your interpretation, rather than being a\nnecessary support.\nWith the case of the tombs, if there is an error it is non-trivial; there is \nno flat textual contradiction involved; and even with the theory-bound \nobjection you have, the objection itself is non-critical to the theory.So I \ndon't see any real motivation to say that the tomb description is a goof." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You didn't require this proof to believe the tombs were separate in the first\nplace. It is unself-reflective to say this and not to consider that you find\nMSG's reference \"entirely convincing\" only because it helps bring the\nnarrative back to a normative keel for you. \n\nI accept the reference, yet I'm still unsatisfied by the narration of the event\nwhich is what led me in the first place (and for no other reason) to conclude\nthe tomb was Severians.\n\nIt IS an added benefit that the tomb \"adds depth to my interpretation\",\nbut Severian being in Typhon's family is not at all necessary for any \ntheory regarding clones on the Whorl, and I did not expect to find it. \nIt *did*, I grant, explain why the Rajan meeting Severian was\n\"necessary\" in a literary sense, but I've lived with things that don't\nmake sense in the Sun Cycle before and I will in the future. \n\nI also grant that the \"clones on Urth\" theory has had a couple of wide\nholes kicked in it over the last week. But any theory that does\nnot convince one, appears to be founded on cobwebs of some\npsychoanalytical need. That's not true in this case, but I can't make it\nstop looking like I'm trying to fit the evidence to my case. All I can say\nis I did not arrived at the conclusion that the tomb was Severian's with\na theory in mind and nothing that led me to it has changed. I simply can't resolve it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wasn't aware there was even a controversy \nregarding the Rajan's fasting. It always seemed to me straightforward that \nhe was disciplining his appetites, out of awareness that the inhumi picked \nup their excessive appetites from us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think only Marc Aramini has used it as an important foundation of a theory.\nSilk didn't eat *much* but he was quite hungry most of the time. The Rajan\non the other hand explicitly states (I can't remember where right now) that\nhe frequently pretends to eat and is quite good at it, otherwise he seems\nuninterested in eating. It might be interesting to start a thread on his\nappetite since the references are extensive and, I grant, contradictory. But\na seach of the books in Amazon.com for \"eat\" and \"hungry\" will provide\nplenty of grist for advocates and detractors (I checked to be sure). The\nshear number of the relavant references should at least convince that the\nRajan's lack eating or lack of NEED for eating is no insignificant subplot. \nFor the record, I say he lacks a need to eat (much or at all) in the winter\nbecause he is largely extent a Neighbor. \nhttp://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/000274.html\nHe's gets hungry in the Spring because the Neighbors are SOMEHOW\nassociated with the trees/are the trees just as the same is true for the\ninhumi and the vines.\n\nIt seems that it is unavoidable that some will see meaning and purpose in\nWolfe's fiction where others see naturalistic exposition.\n\n~ James Wynn" } ] } ] }