{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4467", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4467, "subject": "Shooting the moon", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2005-06-28T01:33:57+00:00", "last": "2005-06-29T06:54:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001601c57bbc$0cc607e0$c53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-28T01:33:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shooting the moon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush wrote (of me):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fine. Split away. But I don't need nearly as fine a microscope to split\nthis one:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't call you a liar. All I said was \"that's not quite what is said\".\nI stand by that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't need to be a major league centerfielder to catch the gist of your\nremark that I was subverting the text in some undeclared subtle or not\nso subtle way. Take out \"undeclared\" and that's all fair game, but\nwhen doing that you could have posted the full relevant text rather\nthan pull a sentence from it and then summarize what the Rajan's\ntake on it was -- and then\"leave it to the readers\" to look it up. It\nwasn't a long reference and you had no problem quoting other\nreferences. A nasty shot from the bushes IMO, and I'll stand by\nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you also stand by this (to Chris)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I should say that while you did not consider the post as a retort or\nintend\nit as dismissive, I consider \"multiplying clones to absurdity\" to be the\nmost\ndifficult response to deal with, because...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nI ask, because you put that phrase in quotes, and went on to add:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope I took it like a man and laughed about it in the sense that I\nassumed\nit was intended. (If you don't like people taking pot-shots at the moon,\ndon't\ndrop your pants.) But of all jokes, that one stings the most." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither Chris nor anyone else wrote it, at least not in this forum. I\nchecked. Chris did, however, write \"postulate clones beyond necessity\". But\nthat doesn't have quite the same connotation, does it? And \"absurdity\"\ndoesn't even come close to \"necessity\".\n\nMoving on. On the same page and in the same conversation as the passage\nwe're disputing, Hoof asked (of Scylla), \"Did she say Pas would kill her if\nhe could?\" Silkhorn answered, \"That is indeed what she said, but I am not\ncertain it's true and I'm not Pas.\"\n\nThis conversation takes place very near the end of Silkhorn's career on\nBlue. He denies being Pas, which is certainly literally true. Then how is it\nthat this person \"who arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone\",\ndoesn't know Pas' intentions toward his renegade daughter?\n\nIf, as you would seem to have it, Silkhorn is somehow (never mind how it\ncame to be) the flesh-and-blood culmination of Pas' presumed plan to rule\nthe colonies by proxy, when was that plan made and by whom? Typhon or Pas?\nNone, I think, will argue that the two personalities are the same. Typhon,\nby all accounts, was a very bad man. His scanned self, Pas, became, at least\nfor the _Whorl_, a more benign figure, a petty god. This evolution, from\ntyrant to local deity, a deity who was evidently regarded as something of a\nfather figure by all except, perhaps, his rival deities in Mainframe, must\nhave taken place over the course of three centuries. Regardless of just how\nthe transformation came about, it happened.\n\nIf, per above, the person of Silkhorn was the fruition of Typhon's schemes,\nthen his plans went miserably awry. Any plans made by Typhon were\nnecessarily made on Urth before the departure of the _Whorl_. Neither\nSilkhorn nor any of his component selves (to say nothing of a hypothetical\nNeighbor component) are anything like the former Monarch of Urth. The Typhon\nSeverian met (both times) was a monomaniac. Any theoretical clones, clones\nof sons, or enhanced embryos intended by Typhon to be host(s), eventually,\nfor the download of the evil personality that had originally been uploaded\nto Mainframe, would have to have been provided for on Urth. Who (or what)\nwas carrying out Typhon's scheme on the ship, three hundred years later? Who\nhad charge of the embryos all that time? The black market??? Mainframe? And\nPas the Benevolent, chief daddy of Mainframe, didn't know, or do, anything\nabout it? Ah, you might say, of course Pas knew of Typhon's plans but had\nsubverted them to his own designs. Very well.\n\nBut that brings up another question. You assert that \"Silk is a clone of the\nson of Typhon and Kypris' original\". Why on Urth would Typhon have had such\na hypothetical son cloned? Did Echidna know about it? More importantly, why\nwould Wolfe give such dubious gene donors to the star of his seven-volume\nopus?\n\nWe have established, at least to my satisfaction, that Pas is not Typhon.\nWhat particular need, therefore, did Pas have for a clone, much less the\nclone of a son, of Typhon? Well, the ship was nearing its destination, and\nPas had duly prepared for the arrival. If Pas wanted to rule the colonies in\nthe flesh, why not use what Typhon had given him? Mainframe, after all,\ncould not leave the ship to follow the colonists (which is what subsequently\ncaused his fellow Mainframe-bound deities to rebel in the first place; they\nwould lose their worshipers). He arranged for the Tussah clone to be thawed\nout and born and raised to adulthood. Presumably he downloaded himself into\nTussah, or only intended to. Then, inexplicably, instead of proclaiming,\nshipwide, that it was time for the Plan of Pas to be put in motion, Tussah\ndecided to go into local politics. Well, maybe Pas was just a victim of bad\ntiming and poor planning; he only had three centuries to get it right. Just\nwhen he had the Tussah clone where he wanted him and was about to launch the\nexodus, the rebellion blind-sided him. He only had time to stash bits of\nhimself around the _Whorl_ before his \"death\", which consisted largely of\nbeing deleted from Mainframe.\n\nTussah, presumably possessed in whole or part (Tussah's motive has to come\nfrom somewhere) by Pas, and cut off from contact with \"dead\" Pas in\nMainframe, scrambles first to save his own ass then to further Pas' plans.\nInstead of sensibly lying low or even moving to another city, he becomes the\nconspicuous, contentious leader of a city whose patron is his daemon\ndaughter. Brilliant! Now what?\n\nAfter screwing around for a number of years (about seven?), Tussah decided\nto have the clone of Typhon's love child (Why that choice? A shortage of\nTyphon clones?) implanted in one of his mistresses, Silk's birth-mother. I\ndon't know where he got that particular clone or why he decided he needed\nanother one grown, but never mind; only Pas knows. Then he promptly got\nhimself killed. Then, years after he died, Tussah _somehow_ connived to have\na proper clone of Typhon implanted in yet another woman. That child turned\nout to be Horn, eight years Silk's junior. My imagination fails me at this\npoint; I can't begin to account for these actions.\n\nWait! Maybe it was Quetzal who was behind all this cloning around. But, no,\nwhere would he have obtained all the inside knowledge needed to have pulled\nit off? And why would he have wanted to? He was a scout for the\nblood-thirsty inhumi. Wolfe has denied that Typhon had foreknowledge of the\ninhumi, and Pas had no reason to feed his colonists to them.\n\nWhere was I? Oh, yes. Pas eventually decided to pull himself together after\nbeing \"dead\" for some thirty years. He started hunting down and \"killing\"\nhis rival familial gods and told the colonists to get off the ship. Exodus\nHorn but not Silk. And we all know why Silk didn't leave. I don't see how it\ncan have been part of Pas' plan, but Silk got sidetracked with lust for that\nwhore, Hyacinth, who had been possessed at the time he fell in \"love' by his\ngenetic mother, Kypris. Maybe that's why Pas put up with it for twenty\nyears; he and Kypris got their vicarious jollies that way. Anyway, Horn went\nto Blue where he lived a fairly nondescript life for twenty years, then got\nkilled on Green. I, for one, never detected the least hint of Pas, much less\nTyphon, in Horn. If he had been intended as a vessel for a god, he must\nsurely have been a disappointment.\n\nDoes that about cover it?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370506280841616724a1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-06-28T08:41:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shooting the moon", "in_reply_to": "<001601c57bbc$0cc607e0$c53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicely done, Roy. Just one point I would add..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/28/05, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n[Typhon's] evolution, from\ntyrant to local deity, a deity who was evidently regarded as something of a\nfather figure by all except, perhaps, his rival deities in Mainframe, must\nhave taken place over the course of three centuries. Regardless of just how\nthe transformation came about, it happened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very true, and this also provides aid and comfort to my point that\nScylla is not \"the same\" as Cilinia - that she most likely has grown,\nor at least changed, over the three centuries of the _Whorl_'s\nvoyage.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<31190355.1120001766816.JavaMail.root@wamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-28T16:36:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shooting the moon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370506280841616724a1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nA nasty shot from the bushes IMO, and I'll stand by\nthat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy said:\nDo you also stand by this (to Chris)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you're offering a defense, it's a lame one. If it is an apology, it's\nworse. Take your best shot, but stand in the open as you do.\n\nI agree moving on is the best recourse, considering all.\nThe quicker the better. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the same page and in the same conversation as the passage\nwe're disputing, Hoof asked (of Scylla), \"Did she say Pas would kill her if\nhe could?\" Silkhorn answered, \"That is indeed what she said, but I am not\ncertain it's true and I'm not Pas.\"\n\nThis conversation takes place very near the end of Silkhorn's career on\nBlue. He denies being Pas, which is certainly literally true. Then how is it\nthat this person \"who arguably knows as much or more about Pas than anyone\",\ndoesn't know Pas' intentions toward his renegade daughter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) I don't argue that Silk was intended to rule the colonies as an emperor. The\nstory takes place in Viron. The Vironese colonists are at issue. The Rajan\nis not Silk. He more and he's less. \n\nb) I don't think one needs to be intimately knowledgeable about Pas to argue that\nScylla's fear that He intends to erase her were legitimate. He's been chasing her,\nher sister, and her mother for 20 years. And Hieros is reportedly \"dead\". I think\nthe Rajan's lack of conviction concerning Pas's lethal intentions toward Scylla\nsuggests more about HIS knowledge of Pas than Scylla's fear suggests HERS.\nI suggests that Pas final action about Scylla is simply not knowable by anyone.\n\nc) It is hardly necessary, even if I held that extreme view (see a) of Pas's\nintentions toward Silk, for Silk to know everything about Pas's intentions or\npotential intentions toward Scylla.\n\nd) I agree that the Rajan is not Pas, although he and Pas contain much that is\nthe same. Silk was grafted to Pas so He could live, and Horn was grafted to\nSilk afterward for the same reason. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If, as you would seem to have it, Silkhorn is somehow (never mind how it\ncame to be) the flesh-and-blood culmination of Pas' presumed plan to rule\nthe colonies by proxy, when was that plan made and by whom?\nTyphon or Pas?\nNone, I think, will argue that the two personalities are the same. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) Oh waitaminute. I see part of the confusion here.\nI don't say \"Silkhorn\", the Rajan, was \"the flesh-and-blood culmination\" \nof any plan of Pas. There's no way Pas could have planned on the Rajan for\nmany many reasons...some of which you will not even agree with.\nI do say that SILK and TUSSAH and were part of the Plan of Pas with\nrespect to Viron. But it was not necessary for Typhon to plan it from\nUrth. Tussah's implantation could be argued to be timed with the Whorl's\narrival to Blue, but Silk's was done by Tussah after Pas's erasure.\n \nb) I agree that Pas and Tussah are not the same personality.\n\nc) Pas's plan was to have the colonists disembark the Whorl. \nQuetzal's Plan, for different reasons, was the same. \nTussah, I argue, was part of both plans (unknowingly in Quetzal's case) \nand, it seems to me, he personally cared enough about Pas's plan to\ninstall Silk as a back-up in case he was murdered (as, the text\nsuggests to me, he anticipated). \n\nI don't know his reasons, they would probably have been multiple. But he\nconsidered it vital that he be succeeded by a souped-up embryo...if he himself\nwere such an embryo, that certainly explains that decision.\n\nBut he didn't have to have \"a son\". He could have identified Silk in any way.\nWhy this fatherly affection for a boy he never seems to have met?\nDid calling Silk his \"son\" help establish his right to the Caldeship? Nope.\nMaybe Tussah had Silk's career mapped out and that gave him a sense\nof investment in Silk? Uh uh.\nThere's NO reason to believe Tussah anticipated that Silk would join the\nChapter. It obviously didn't matter a whit as far as his plan for the \"son not\nof his body\". (But it worked for Quetzal in that he could manipulate his\ncareer.) \n\nSo why call Silk his \"son\". Because it was a simple fact. That is all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[At this point, Roy really warms to his task. He describes his\nunderstanding of my theory which is, unfortunately, wrong for the\nmost part.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've blown my assertion that Tussah was a clone of Typhon way beyond any\nspeculation I've made. Part of it is due to your misunderstanding about what\nI'm saying about the Rajan, and the rest is...just not what I'm saying. Certainly\nnot what I've intended to convey. *I* have never intentionally claimed that it is\nMY belief that Typhon or Pas intended to have a personality downloaded into\na clone. Maybe he did. The text doesn't' say so AFAIK. But the Rajan says\nthat Pas would not have found that necessary. \n\nAnd I have another reason to doubt it:\nIf Scylla is any guide, no god-entity WOULD EVER WANT TO PERMANENTLY LEAVE\nTHE MAINFRAME. Any sub-deity that possessed a mortal being would die when that being\ndied. That's why the gods never possessed a being permanently. Even Kypris left Chenille\nwhen she was still needed to search for Silk. The prospect of possessing a human and\ngoing to Blue would be UNTHINKABLE. Scylla only did it because she thought Pas must\nhave created connections to the Mainframe on Blue. She didn't find any, that was a\nbig mistake on her part and she knew it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You assert that \"Silk is a clone of the son of Typhon and Kypris' original\". " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Good! Finally. Yes, that is what I assert." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why on Urth would Typhon have had such a hypothetical son cloned?\nDid Echidna know about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. Did she know about Kypris? Could she do anything about\nit if she did know? (Maybe she tried...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More importantly, why would Wolfe give such dubious gene donors\nto the star of his seven-volume opus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? Dubious in what way? \n\na) Do you mean they aren't \"worthy\" of being Silk's parents? I'm not\nsure what sort of parents he ought to have had instead. I'd say centering\non a character who is, in a sense, an illegitimate son of Typhon and has a\nbackstory that without his knowledge *destines* him to be a savior is a\npretty interesting start for this story, is quite Wolfean, and fits in the mood\ncreated by \"The Book of the New Sun\".\n\nb) Do you mean that their parentage is not self-evident? \nDo you think Wolfe imagined, while writing \"The Book of the New Sun\",\nthat anyone would read the story close enough to figure\nout that Dorcas was Severian's grandmother? By the time he started \n\"The Long Sun\", he knew the story would be sifted with fine combs. So he\nhid the clues with more determination. Too much determination IMO.\nSo much so that while, I believe that Tussah is a clone of Typhon, I don't\nthink it can be deduced from the text to the exclusion of all other theories.\nBut once you make that intuitive leap, a whole heck of a lot falls into place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We have established, at least to my satisfaction, that Pas is not Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. I agree. He's a facsimile, like \"Silver Silk\" is to Silk I suppose.\nLike Mr Million was to his original. Maybe less than that even: Maybe more\nlike Krait was to Sinew. Who knows?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Here Roy makes an argument based on a belief that I'm arguing Pas\nwanted to rule the colonies as a clone. But, of course, I've only said\nthat Pas intended the colonies to be supplimented, united, and aided by\nthe embryos...Tussah among them. But the overarching theme is \nembodied in \"What particular need, therefore, did Pas have for a clone,\nmuch less the clone of a son, of Typhon?\"]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with everything you say regarding the fact that Pas did not need\na clone of Typhon to rule the colonies and I go further in that I seriously\ndoubt he wanted to rule the colonies personally at all.\n\n***\nI'm going to address your questions at this point only to show that\nthe Tussah=Typhon theory works for the sort of postulating you've\ndone. I'm only going to make the sort of ruminations you are making. \nI'm not claiming they are individually supported in the text:\n****\n\n1) Why did Tussah wait 7 years to implant an embryo? Perhaps he\nthought he could bring Pas back himself and found it wasn't so easy.\nThe only knowledge required for Tussah to have is that HE himself\nwas a clone and that he know what what relation Silk's embryo \nhad to himself. This implies that the clones Tussah had access to\nhad not yet been stolen from those refrigerators. I'm imagining\nlittle labels on each embryo unless the gods were telling him. \n[You asked why Tussah didn't use a Typhon clone? Perhaps the\nTyphon embryo in that refrigerator had already been used to make\nTussah.]\n\nI am surprised that while it is perfectly clear to you that Typhon and\nPas were different personalities, it is so befuddling to you that Tussah,\neven as a clone of Typhon, would act independently even if\nhe was in concurrence with Pas's overall plan. I'm surprised\nit isn't obvious to you that Tussah would have experienced the same\nsort of holy manipulation that Silk experienced from Kypris. Tussah\nwas implanted as the Whorl approached -- maybe it was at Pas's\ninstigation (things do not seem to have yet gone completely out of\nhand) or maybe it was just, \"well, here's one of those clones,\nso he's the best candidate to use.\" But it is not beyond reason that\nTussah knew that Pas had a plan to disembark, *or* EVEN that after\nPas's murder, Kypris didn't tell him...yet even if he didn't know what\nthe plan was, he MIGHT have known that Pas HAD a plan, and\nfelt a religious devotion to see it come off. None of that undermines\nthe reasonableness of Tussah being a clone of Typhon. \n\nBut a preset plan designed by Typhon on Urth to have this particular\nguy to do such and such is simply not necessary.\n\n2) Why would Pas (and the rest of the pantheon) prefer to use those\nembryos (who happen to be clones) to announce their plans as\nopposed to anybody else? Well, the pantheon ARE NOT people.\nThey are avatars representing computer modules of the Mainframe.\nThis is stated, I forget where. They actually have functions within the\nMainframe...which might explain why the Rajan had some doubt that\nPas would completely eliminate Scylla. Since they are computer\nmodules they are governed by certain rules that do not require them\nto _think_ \"I must do this because my plan will work best if I do.\"\nThey lead the Cargo and announce their plans to the Cargo through\nthose embryos because they are programmed to do so...and they are\nprogramed to do so because, with the hyped-up genes, they were\nconsidered by the planners to be the best suited to lead and the best\nable to convince the Cargo to do as the Mainframe tells them. \n\nTussah *may* have been possessed in part, but no possessing deity\nwould think of going to Blue in a person and staying there permanently,\nas I said above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After screwing around for a number of years (about seven?), Tussah\ndecided to have the clone of Typhon's love child (Why that choice?\nA shortage of Typhon clones?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. We aren't told. We're only told that it would be a \"the son\nnot of his body\". Why do you suppose only a clone\nof Typhon would do? Why do you suppose I think Tussah thought\nonly the a clone of the *son* of Typhon and Kypris would do? I don't.\nHe said \"the son not of my body will be Calde after me\" because it \nWAS such a person that he had implanted and hidden away...I \npresume it was done in conjunction with Kypris." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then, years after he died, Tussah _somehow_ connived to have\na proper clone of Typhon implanted in yet another woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm...On being asked to suppose who implanted Horn, I fingered Quetzal\nas a likely candidate. I don't think I ever supposed it was Tussah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait! Maybe it was Quetzal who was behind all this cloning around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Your imagination seems to have led you in the same direction as me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, no, where would [Quetzal] have obtained all the inside knowledge\nneeded to have pulled it off? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quetzal? Are you serious? Much of it, no doubt from Tussah himself.\nBut probably not exclusively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why would he have wanted to? He was a scout for the\nblood-thirsty inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A scout? I don't see any reason to suppose that. But he wanted what all\nthe inhumi wanted: a thriving colony on Green. For his own reasons,\nhe wanted the Plan of Pas to succeed.\n\nThere is no need for Tussah or Kypris or Pas or anyone else to know\nabout the inhumi for them all to share the same desire.\n\nDo any of my answers incline you to retell the story differently?\n\n~ James Wynn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c57c7c$e2eb7d80$043ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-06-29T00:33:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shooting the moon", "in_reply_to": "<31190355.1120001766816.JavaMail.root@wamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Crush wrote:\nI said:\nA nasty shot from the bushes IMO, and I'll stand by\nthat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy said:\nDo you also stand by this (to Chris)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're offering a defense, it's a lame one. If it is an apology, it's\nworse. Take your best shot, but stand in the open as you do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it wasn't a defense; I don't need one. I was demonstrating your\npropensity for reading things into the written word that simply aren't\nthere. I in no way misrepresented the text I quoted, neither did I subvert\nits meaning. I gave the correct references to the text and invited readers\nto read it all for themselves, that they might judge. I didn't type out two\npages of text because I didn't feel the need to and I'm not a typist. I\nguess it's easy to copy and paste text from Amazon as you seem to be doing,\nbut I don't do that.\n\nAnd it certainly wasn't an apology; I had nothing to apologize for. You\nmisquoted Chris, and that's a fact. Since you weren't quoting what he\nactually wrote, the words you misquoted had to have come from the memory of\nyour perception of what he did write. That demonstrates, I think, the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "assertion I made above. Just seven days ago you wrote:\nIf Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I only started posting again to correct that misreading of my posts; I had\nmade no such claim. This is becoming tedious.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12821475.1120053260638.JavaMail.root@wamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-06-29T06:54:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Shooting the moon", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c57c7c$e2eb7d80$043ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said:\nA nasty shot from the bushes IMO, and I'll stand by\nthat.\n\nRoy said:\nDo you also stand by this (to Chris)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I said:\nIf you're offering a defense, it's a lame one. If it is an apology, it's\nworse. Take your best shot, but stand in the open as you do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy said:\nNo, it wasn't a defense; I don't need one. I was demonstrating your\npropensity for reading things into the written word that simply aren't\nthere. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooooooooh! Now I *understand*. I went back and read your post and\nI must admit I wonder why I didn't see it before:\nhttp://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2005-June/001206.html\n\nYou had an unstated agenda to forward -- a *bias* to confirm! \nThat's why you chose to make a delineation regarding \npage 361 of RTTW when there was *barely* any discernable difference...\nand that's is why (I couldn't figure this out but it is all too clear now)\nalthough you typed out other references verbatim to attempt to prove\nyour point, you didn't post the reference AT ISSUE.\nYou did that because then it would have been patently clear that your\ndifferences were slight at best...trivial at worst. You wanted to leave\nthe impression that you were building a federal case! \n\nOf course you *could* have posted the text said \"No, that is not the\nonly reading. The Rajan does not absolutely DENY that Pas EVER\nhad ANY intention of ruling the Whorl in person.\" But *merely* \ndisagreeing and proving an alternate reading would not forward your\n*actual* agenda of proving that I have *propensity of \n\"reading things...that simply aren't there\". \n\nAnd simply SAYING that that was your intent in the original\npost was too up front. You wanted to say it and not say it.\n\nGot it. Well, I repeat, \"Take your best shot but stand in the open\nas you do it.\" I'm not hiding. I've made myself available for\npotshots. I don't think you should avail yourself of the privilege\nand hide at the same time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just seven days ago you wrote:\n\"If Roy Lackey and Blattid are correct in their posts that Silk is a clone\nof Typhon [...]\"\nI only started posting again to correct that misreading of my posts; I had\nmade no such claim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh gosh! I'm terribly sorry about that, Roy. The post Chris referenced\n*seemed* to suggest you and Dan'l were discussing in earnest the\nmerits of the Silk=Typhon's Clone theory. I hadn't read your Creed on\nWolfe's works so I didn't know where you stood. How terrible for you to\nsee your name bandied about in passing like that. I hope my post didn't\nforce you to get out your sphygmomanometer. I hope the family didn't\ngather 'round to see you one last time. Please accept my apology for that.\n\n~ James Wynn\n\n\"She possessed Oreb, as I told you, because she knew he would soon be\nbrought [to Blue]. She felt sure--she told me this one night--that Pas would\nwould not have peopled Blue unless he had some way to go there himself\nto rule them. 'Lord it' was the phrase she used. She was wrong, as I could\nhave told her.\" [361 RTTW]" } ] } ] }