{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4469", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4469, "subject": "Mamelta is Kypris?", "messages": 18, "voices": 9, "first": "2005-07-05T10:35:02+00:00", "last": "2005-08-03T22:08:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<14959831.1120585290995.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-07-05T10:35:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said to Chris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Funny you should say that. Go back and search the\narchives for the discussion\non whether Mamelta is Kypris and Silk's mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe something's wrong with the archives, or with my brain, but google is \ngiving me a set of hits that don't include this discussion. I looked for \nconjunctions of \"Mamelta\" with both \"Kypris\" and \"mother\", separately, and \nno dice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps that discussion occurred during the Missing Year.\n\nThe details centered around the Mamelta appearance and Silk's dream in which\nMamelta, Marble, and Hyacinth's appearance (in Hy's case, Kypris said explicitly\nthat she used to look like her) are confabulated. I wish I could remember every\nreference put forward right now, but I can't. \nThe theory is not beyond the realm of deniability, but frankly I found it brought\nso much into focus that I didn't understand about the book that I was convinced.\nAnd subsequent realizations regarding the text confirmed it.\n\nMaybe someone has the original emails and can repost them?\n\n~ James Wynn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050705201043.OZBE1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-07-05T13:04:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<14959831.1120585290995.JavaMail.root@wamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was one of my theories. First off, her name begins with Ma, as Pas starts with Pa. She has blue eyes, something Crane says is very rare, and so does Silk. Silk descends the ladder and looks up at her genitals at the same time that he sees the stars, and gets the feeling of \"home\". He has a vision before he runs into her that says he won't sleep until his \"mother\" comes, but we don't get to see that. Instead, Mamelta shows up. Kypris also had blue eyes and dark hair, and Silk was inexplicably attracted to Mamelta. \n\nI don't know if I have any of the old links.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Keltin Barney", "address": "xentrocia at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-07-05T17:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<20050705201043.OZBE1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have tried, in the past, to look for another incarnation of Kypris but I \nnever thought of Mamelta. I think you just may be right about this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nTo: \nSubject: Re: (urth) Mamelta is Kypris?\nDate: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0400\n\nThis was one of my theories. First off, her name begins with Ma, as Pas \nstarts with Pa. She has blue eyes, something Crane says is very rare, and \nso does Silk. Silk descends the ladder and looks up at her genitals at the \nsame time that he sees the stars, and gets the feeling of \"home\". He has a \nvision before he runs into her that says he won't sleep until his \"mother\" \ncomes, but we don't get to see that. Instead, Mamelta shows up. Kypris \nalso had blue eyes and dark hair, and Silk was inexplicably attracted to \nMamelta.\n\nI don't know if I have any of the old links.\nMarc Aramini\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050706080809.30091.qmail@web54203.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "nastler", "address": "nastler at yahoo.dk" }, "date": "2005-07-06T01:08:11+00:00", "subject": "SV: Re: (urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<20050705201043.OZBE1860.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini skrev:\n\nYou may remember that a while ago I became interested\nin the idea that Mamelta was Kypris - for several\nreasons. The first was her black hair and \nblue eyes - a Hyacinth look-a-like, and we know that\nKypris loves Hy because of how closely she resembles\nherself as a living girl. The second was from a \nvision on page 534 of Litany of the Long Sun\n\n\"the woman who slept in the glass tube, the tube in\nwhich he himself now slept beside Chenille, who was\nKypris, who was Hyacinth, who was Mamelta, with\nHyacinth's jet-black hair,\"\n\nChenille and Hyacinth were both possessed by Kypris -\nand since Mamelta has Hyacinth hair, and Kypris had\nHyacinth hair, and they are all related here, I\nfigured it would be neat if Mamelta were Kypris. Then\nI found this bit of niftiness: p 424\n\n\"But quite soon now, as the swift floater sailed over\na landscape grown liquid, his mother would come to\nkiss him good-night; he liked to be awake for it, to\nsay distinctly, 'good night to you, too Mama,' when\nshe left. He resolved not to sleep until she came\"\n\nHere, Silk resolves not to sleep until his mommy comes\n(here, it is Mama). Well, who does he meet in the next\nchapter? Mamelta! And later, what do we get in\nEpiphany of the Long Sun (Calde,actually) on page 220:\n\"The Outsider was the dancing man on a toy, and the\nwater the polished toy-top on which he danced with\nKypris, who was Hyacinth and Mother, too.\"\n\nKypris is Mother! and she is probably Mamelta, too. \nNow I understand why the Mamelta scene is so familiar\n- it is like the Dorcas scene in Shadow of the\nTorturer - except instead of Grandma, we get Silk's\nmom! In the scene where he leaves his body, I am\ncertain that the tall man with blue eyes is Pas, and \nthe mother (not the one who raised him) was Mamelta.\n\nSo Silk is the son of the father of the gods and his\nlover, the only creature that he has mercy for. And\nMamelta is Kypris; she goes down and repairs the \ncircuitry that allows the exodus to begin. She dies\nin the lake (as St. Mamelta does - quick note though,\non the www.Catholic.org site, Mamelta is listed as a\nmale saint, but female on some other ones). So she\nallows her son to begin the descent, even though she\ndoesn't remember him. And his love for Hyacinth ... is\nreally his love for his mother.\n\n--- aramini1 at cox.net skrev:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This was one of my theories. First off, her name\nbegins with Ma, as Pas starts with Pa. She has blue\neyes, something Crane says is very rare, and so does\nSilk. Silk descends the ladder and looks up at her\ngenitals at the same time that he sees the stars,\nand gets the feeling of \"home\". He has a vision\nbefore he runs into her that says he won't sleep\nuntil his \"mother\" comes, but we don't get to see\nthat. Instead, Mamelta shows up. Kypris also had\nblue eyes and dark hair, and Silk was inexplicably\nattracted to Mamelta. \n\nI don't know if I have any of the old links.\nMarc Aramini\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f76173705070608454f4884a3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-07-06T08:45:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<20050706080809.30091.qmail@web54203.mail.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/6/05, nastler wrote:\nMarc Aramini skrev:\n\"But quite soon now, as the swift floater sailed over\na landscape grown liquid, his mother would come to\nkiss him good-night; he liked to be awake for it, to\nsay distinctly, 'good night to you, too Mama,' when\nshe left. He resolved not to sleep until she came\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kypris is Mother! and she is probably Mamelta, too.\nNow I understand why the Mamelta scene is so familiar" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well ... and for what it's worth ... the scene is also\nfamiliar, at least to those who have read Proust, \nbecause it echoes a great deal of the 'Ouverture'\nfrom \"Du Cote de Chez Swann.\" Young Marcel\nspends a lot of time agonizing about how he can't\nget to sleep unless Mama comes up and gives \nhim a goodnight kiss, etc.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c593aa$e040e580$ed3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-07-28T12:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<1f76173705070608454f4884a3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re. the confabulation of Kypris, Hyacinth, Mamelta and the woman in Silk's\ndeath vision who was his biological mother:\n\nWhile it's true that Kypris said that Hy looked much like she herself had\nlooked when she was a real woman, I wouldn't attach too much meaning to it.\nIirc, Hy's tits were phony; who knows how much of her looks were artificial?\nOne thing she couldn't change was her height. Chenille said of her, \"the top\nof her head doesn't even hit my shoulder\". She was short and petite, which\nis why Silk was so amazed when she overpowered the pilot on the airship. He\nmade a big deal of it; it was part of what put him on the roof of the\nairship contemplating suicide.\n\nSilk's birth mother was also short. FWIW.\n\nMamelta, otoh, was a big girl. She was described by Silk as a \"tall,\nraven-haired woman\".\n\nIf the silent woman in Silk's death vision, his biological mother, was\nsupposed to be a representation of the flesh-and-blood original of Kypris,\nTyphon's mistress, what did Silk see? Was she short or tall?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c59714$542a0ff0$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-01T20:42:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<001001c593aa$e040e580$ed3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re. the confabulation of Kypris, Hyacinth, Mamelta and the woman in Silk's\ndeath vision who was his biological mother:\n\nWhile it's true that Kypris said that Hy looked much like she herself had\nlooked when she was a real woman, I wouldn't attach too much meaning to it.\nIirc, Hy's tits were phony; who knows how much of her looks were\nartificial?\nOne thing she couldn't change was her height. Chenille said of her, \"the\ntop\nof her head doesn't even hit my shoulder\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe the \"looks like I used to bit\" refers to her black hair and maybe\nher eyes (I'll have to recheck that). Kypris used to look like Hy in the\nsame way she used to look like Mint (thus her attempt to possess her). She\nlooked like Hy in the same way and for the same reasons that Marble said\n*she* looked like Teasle or Dahlia with black short hair. Black short hair\nin both cases." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Hy] was short and petite, which\nis why Silk was so amazed when she overpowered the pilot on the airship. He\nmade a big deal of it; it was part of what put him on the roof of the\nairship contemplating suicide." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, does anything strike you as fishy about that? Like maybe he wasn't\nonly in dispair about Hy being too good a fighter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk's birth mother was also short. FWIW.\nMamelta, otoh, was a big girl. She was described by Silk as a \"tall,\nraven-haired woman\".\nIf the silent woman in Silk's death vision, his biological mother, was\nsupposed to be a representation of the flesh-and-blood original of Kypris,\nTyphon's mistress, what did Silk see? Was she short or tall?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure right now that the \"souls\" of people in the Mainframe looked\nthe way they saw *themselves.* Tartaros had no form because he had no\nconcept of his looks. He told Auk:\n*********************\n\"What your augurs and sibyls see, if they see anything, is the self-image of\nthe god who chooses to be seen. You say that you could nearly make out the\nface of my father's concubine, her self as she imagines that self to appear.\nI feel confident that it was a beautiful face. I have never meta any woman\nmore secure in her own vanity. In the same fashion, we sound to them as we\nconceive our voices to sound...What you see [of me], Auk, is that part of me\nwhich can be seen. That is to say, nothing, I came blind from the womb, Auk,\nand because of it I am incapable of formulating a visual image for you.\n******************************\n\nIt seems to me that the self-images of the divine modules must have been\nmanipulated for Echidna or Typhon or Scylla to see themselves as monsters.\nBut they could not be overhauled or implanted. Tartaros implies this just\nprior to this when he says that he could not be made to see even as a god.\n\nIs it the same for humans. I believe it is, even though I don't have an\nsuitable *human* example. I do however have an example of a human *soul*: in\nJahlee. The Rajan is approached by a drunk woman from behind. He hears her\nvoice and thinks it is Chenille.\n******************\n\"They're y'are.\"\nI looked around at the swaying woman behind me and said, \"Chenille?\"\n\"Tha' lady on Green? No, 's me.\" Jahlee dropped onto Auk's stool and leaned\nacross the table on her hands. \"Guesh my faish's not sho good, huh?\"\n\"Don't smile,\" I told here.\n\"I won'. I'sh jush show hungry. I foun' thish woman in a alley.\"\n\"Not so loud, please.\"\n\"drank 'n drank, 'n I fell down 'n I knew I better shtop.\"\n~ RTTW pg 155\n***********************\n\nThis is about as straightforward as you get for this kind of thing from\nWolfe -- Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille. Chenille's soul is in Jahlee. She\nwas drunk, she sounded just like Chenille when *she* was drunk. What does\nthe soul in Jahlee look like?\n****************************\nI went over to watch Rigoglio, and in a moment more found Jahlee clinging to\nme like the lianas, her body warm and damp with perspiration (as those of\ninhumi never are), and fragrant with some heavy, cloying scent. Long sorrel\nhair that proceeded from no wig draped us both like the vines of Silk's\narbor. When I tried to free myself from her, she grinned at me. \"I've got\nteeth here. Real teeth, Rajan. Adieu to my famous tight-lipped smile! Look\nwhat I can do now.\" She grinned again, more broadly than ever...Jahlee\njoined me there, naked still save for her long hair....I spoke to Hide.\n\"Honesty compels me to tell you that Jahlee is not an inhuma at present. She\nis a human being here, exactly as we are, and I believe for the same\nreason...\"...[Hide said] \"You really look a lot more like my real father\nhere. You're taller than he was and older, but you look more like him than\nyou used to.\"\nRTTW pg 315-320\n****************************\n\nSorrel is reddish brown color. Chenille's hair, as Roy noted in his other\npost, was not red or reddish. It was dark. How dark I can't say right now;\nI don't believe black, but dark. But her image of herself was having reddish\nhair mingled with dark brown roots. Sorrel.\n\nLater the Rajan described Jahlee when she is an inhuma again:\n*******************************\n\"The third member of our party is my daughter Jahlee. She is of medium\nheight, red-haired and attractive, with a smooth almond-shaped face and a\nsly smile many find captivating.\"\n~ RTTW pg 20\n*********************************\n\nIs he describing her soul or the way the way she looks to others? Well, I\ndon't think he considers an inhuma to be his daughter, so I think he himself\nis describing her soul, but it may be one in the same. Likely it is.\n\nSooo...what did Kypris/Silk's mother look like in the mainframe? She looked\nthe way she saw herself. Not as she truly looked.\n\nI'm sorry if it seems I've made much out of little, Roy, but it is important\nto clarify this point before I answer your other post.\n\n~ J" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c5979d$8861d620$033ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-02T13:05:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c59714$542a0ff0$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush quoted and wrote:\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While it's true that Kypris said that Hy looked much like she herself had\nlooked when she was a real woman, I wouldn't attach too much meaning to\nit.\nIirc, Hy's tits were phony; who knows how much of her looks were\nartificial?\nOne thing she couldn't change was her height. Chenille said of her, \"the\ntop\nof her head doesn't even hit my shoulder\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe the \"looks like I used to bit\" refers to her black hair and maybe\nher eyes (I'll have to recheck that). Kypris used to look like Hy in the\nsame way she used to look like Mint (thus her attempt to possess her). She\nlooked like Hy in the same way and for the same reasons that Marble said\n*she* looked like Teasle or Dahlia with black short hair. Black short hair\nin both cases." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not following you. Mint's hair was cut short, like a nun's, to\ndeliberately look unattractive to men. Hy was doing the opposite. The exact\nquote from Kypris is: \"I was there last night. Yes. But not for you. Only\nbecause I play with Hy sometimes. Now she reminds me of the way I used to\nbe, but all that will be over soon. She's twenty-three.\" The \"Now\" implies\nthere was a time when Hy didn't look so much like her. Before the boob job\nand whatever other cosmetic changes were made in a deliberate attempt by Hy\nto conform her looks, so far as possible, with the image of the goddess she\nsaw in the monitor. She tried to do the same thing right after her wedding,\nto apply cosmetics to her face in such a way as to suggest the shape of the\nheart on her cheap wedding ring, with the assistance of the hotel monitor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mamelta, otoh, was a big girl. She was described by Silk as a \"tall,\nraven-haired woman\".\nIf the silent woman in Silk's death vision, his biological mother, was\nsupposed to be a representation of the flesh-and-blood original of Kypris,\nTyphon's mistress, what did Silk see? Was she short or tall?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm pretty sure right now that the \"souls\" of people in the Mainframe\nlooked\nthe way they saw *themselves.* Tartaros had no form because he had no\nconcept of his looks. He told Auk:\n*********************\n\"What your augurs and sibyls see, if they see anything, is the self-image\nof\nthe god who chooses to be seen. You say that you could nearly make out the\nface of my father's concubine, her self as she imagines that self to\nappear.\nI feel confident that it was a beautiful face. I have never meta any woman\nmore secure in her own vanity. In the same fashion, we sound to them as we\nconceive our voices to sound...What you see [of me], Auk, is that part of\nme\nwhich can be seen. That is to say, nothing, I came blind from the womb,\nAuk,\nand because of it I am incapable of formulating a visual image for you.\n******************************\n\nIt seems to me that the self-images of the divine modules must have been\nmanipulated for Echidna or Typhon or Scylla to see themselves as monsters.\nBut they could not be overhauled or implanted. Tartaros implies this just\nprior to this when he says that he could not be made to see even as a god.\n\nIs it the same for humans. I believe it is, even though I don't have an\nsuitable *human* example. I do however have an example of a human *soul*:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jahlee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't compare the \"soul\" of those transported by astral projection with\ncomputer generated images. They are unrelated. I know you're not going to\ntry to tell me that Oreb saw himself as a thirteen-year-old girl when they\nprojected to Urth. That was Scylla in him, as we all know, and she didn't\ntransport looking like a monster. She looked like the kid she had been at\nthe time she was scanned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Rajan is approached by a drunk woman from behind. He hears her\nvoice and thinks it is Chenille.\n******************\n\"They're y'are.\"\nI looked around at the swaying woman behind me and said, \"Chenille?\"\n\"Tha' lady on Green? No, 's me.\" Jahlee dropped onto Auk's stool and leaned\nacross the table on her hands. \"Guesh my faish's not sho good, huh?\"\n\"Don't smile,\" I told here.\n\"I won'. I'sh jush show hungry. I foun' thish woman in a alley.\"\n\"Not so loud, please.\"\n\"drank 'n drank, 'n I fell down 'n I knew I better shtop.\"\n~ RTTW pg 155\n***********************\n\nThis is about as straightforward as you get for this kind of thing from\nWolfe -- Jahlee's mother fed on Chenille." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could you give me the textual foundation for that latter supposition?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chenille's soul is in Jahlee. She\nwas drunk, she sounded just like Chenille when *she* was drunk. What does\nthe soul in Jahlee look like?\n****************************\nI went over to watch Rigoglio, and in a moment more found Jahlee clinging\nto\nme like the lianas, her body warm and damp with perspiration (as those of\ninhumi never are), and fragrant with some heavy, cloying scent. Long sorrel\nhair that proceeded from no wig draped us both like the vines of Silk's\narbor. When I tried to free myself from her, she grinned at me. \"I've got\nteeth here. Real teeth, Rajan. Adieu to my famous tight-lipped smile! Look\nwhat I can do now.\" She grinned again, more broadly than ever...Jahlee\njoined me there, naked still save for her long hair....I spoke to Hide.\n\"Honesty compels me to tell you that Jahlee is not an inhuma at present." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is a human being here, exactly as we are, and I believe for the same\nreason...\"...[Hide said] \"You really look a lot more like my real father\nhere. You're taller than he was and older, but you look more like him than\nyou used to.\"\nRTTW pg 315-320\n****************************\n\nSorrel is reddish brown color. Chenille's hair, as Roy noted in his other\npost, was not red or reddish. It was dark. How dark I can't say right now;\nI don't believe black, but dark. But her image of herself was having\nreddish\nhair mingled with dark brown roots. Sorrel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You meant IGJ. This is how Silk described Chenille's hair: \"her tightly\ncurled hair was the color of ripe raspberries.\" (NIGHTSIDE, chap. 10) He\nalso called it \"fiery\". The cat on the hilt of the dagger was \"scarlet\". I\ndon't think any woman's idealized self-image includes dark roots showing\nunder hair dyed her preferred color. And I've never seen a horse the color\nof raspberries. I believe her hair was short as well as curly, not long like\nJahlee's in the above quote, but I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later the Rajan described Jahlee when she is an inhuma again:\n*******************************\n\"The third member of our party is my daughter Jahlee. She is of medium\nheight, red-haired and attractive, with a smooth almond-shaped face and a\nsly smile many find captivating.\"\n~ RTTW pg 20\n*********************************\n\nIs he describing her soul or the way the way she looks to others? Well, I\ndon't think he considers an inhuma to be his daughter, so I think he\nhimself\nis describing her soul, but it may be one in the same. Likely it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was describing her as she looked to any humans they encountered while\ntraveling, the same as other inhumi trying to pass as human. It was her\ndisguise, an illusion. And even then she wasn't tall, like Chenille. She\nlooked different at different times, as in Gaon and at the farmhouse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sooo...what did Kypris/Silk's mother look like in the mainframe? She looked\nthe way she saw herself. Not as she truly looked." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you really think there was a computer terminal under all that rubble,\nprobing a dead man's eyes and reading a dead man's thoughts, and sending the\ndata to Mainframe? Silk was dead, as all those present believed. The gods of\nMainframe have no power to raise the dead, and Quetzal said so. He didn't\nbelieve the Outsider's powers to be any different from the computer gods. He\nwas wrong. Silk's resurrection was a miracle orchestrated by the Outsider.\nHis death vision came from the Outsider, not Mainframe. So the people Silk\nsaw in his death vision looked exactly as the Outsider portrayed them --\nunless the Outsider deceived him.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050802211458.38723.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matt Sab", "address": "mbs808 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-02T14:15:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) world fantasy award noms", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5979d$8861d620$033ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't see this mentioned on list...\n\nThe Wizard Knight is nominated for best novel\n\nAND\n\n'Golden City Far' is nominated for best novella.\n\nhttp://www.worldfantasy.org/awards/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c597c9$098b9350$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-02T18:15:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5979d$8861d620$033ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Later the Rajan described Jahlee when she is an inhuma again:\n*******************************\n\"The third member of our party is my daughter Jahlee. She is of medium\nheight, red-haired and attractive, with a smooth almond-shaped face and a\nsly smile many find captivating.\"\n~ RTTW pg 20\n*********************************\nIs he describing her soul or the way the way she looks to others? Well, I\ndon't think he considers an inhuma to be his daughter, so I think he\nhimself is describing her soul, but it may be one in the same. Likely it\nis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was describing her as she looked to any humans they encountered while\ntraveling, the same as other inhumi trying to pass as human. It was her\ndisguise, an illusion. And even then she wasn't tall, like Chenille. She\nlooked different at different times, as in Gaon and at the farmhouse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. The Rajan didn't describe her at this point has having *many*\nfaces. He is describing an event in the past but describes *her* in the\npresent tense suggesting continuous action. Kind of like the difference\nbetween \"esta\" and \"es\". Not \"sometimes she looks like...\" but \"she looks\nlike...\". Furthermore, he described her using her explicit appearance of her\nsoul during dream-travel. You're welcome to any opinion you wish, but I'm\nnot going along.\n\nAnd why on earth would you think Jahlee would have to physically look like\nChenille to have her soul? We don't agree on much, I know, but I know you to\nbe a careful reader. Do you really *really* believe the inhuma *actually*\nlooked physically like the persons whose souls they inherited? Physically,\nshe didn't look anything like Chenille. Physically, Krait didn't look\nanything like Sinew. Unless they chose for humans to see them that way\n(which btw is exactly the people see the gods in the Mainframe, according to\nTartaros). In the dark bar, the Rajan heard the tenor of her voice and for a\nmoment believed it was Chenille. I don't think there is any other reasonable\n\nexplanation for that.\n\n\nI said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sooo...what did Kypris/Silk's mother look like in the mainframe? She\nlooked\nthe way she saw herself. Not as she truly looked." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you really think there was a computer terminal under all that rubble,\nprobing a dead man's eyes and reading a dead man's thoughts, and sending\nthe data to Mainframe? Silk was dead, as all those present believed. The\ngods of Mainframe have no power to raise the dead, and Quetzal said so.\nHe didn't believe the Outsider's powers to be any different from the\ncomputer gods. He was wrong. Silk's resurrection was a miracle\norchestrated by the Outsider. His death vision came from the Outsider,\nnot Mainframe. So the people Silk saw in his death vision looked exactly\nas the Outsider portrayed them -- unless the Outsider deceived him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) As for \"reading a dead man's thoughts\" Wolfe doesn't explain how the\nMainframe reads the thoughts of dead people to permit Remora and Hyacinth\nand Silk talk to their mothers when they go to the Sun's end. That ship has\nsailed. Whether you find it believable or not (I find it tough to swallow,\nmyself), it is really beyond hand-wringing as far as the novels go.\n\n2) Someone else also recently asserted that Silk was not in the Mainframe\nbut actually in Heaven. This is how the scene is described:\n*************************\n The Trivigante airship was a brown beetle, infinitely remote, the\nAureate Path so near he knew it could not be his final destination.\n He lighted upon it, and found it a road of tinsel down a whorl no\nbigger than an egg. Where were the lowing beasts? The spirits of the other\ndead?\n************************\nThe text here supports the reading that he was in Heaven, that Silk was not\n*merely* in the Mainframe.However, it also supports the naturalistic reading\nas well. Silk IS on the Mainframe's \"Aureate Path\" as the text says (unless\nyou think Wolfe is suggesting there is a tinsel road to Heaven) but from\nwhere he is he can note that it is not the ultimate goal or even much of a\ngoal at all. It is tinsel...phony. Like the \"clockwork\" nature he discovered\nthe Whorl to have when he was enlightened. So are these people in the\nMainframe or are they from the true afterlife? It seems to me that Wolfe is\nhaving it both ways.\n\nAnyway it doesn't really matter as far as the current question is concerned.\n\"The Short Sun\" segment makes it clear that the appearance of souls is the\nsame for *real* human souls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not following you. Mint's hair was cut short, like a nun's, to\ndeliberately look unattractive to men. Hy was doing the opposite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't consider that relevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The exact\nquote from Kypris is: \"I was there last night. Yes. But not for you. Only\nbecause I play with Hy sometimes. Now she reminds me of the way I used to\nbe, but all that will be over soon. She's twenty-three.\" The \"Now\" implies\nthere was a time when Hy didn't look so much like her. Before the boob job\nand whatever other cosmetic changes were made in a deliberate attempt by Hy\nto conform her looks, so far as possible, with the image of the goddess she\nsaw in the monitor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "a) Your theory about what Kypris meant by \"now\" is interesting. I'm not so\nsure that's what she meant, nor what \"soon\" meant to her (as in \"that will\nbe over soon\"), and Kypris doesn't elaborate.\n\nb) Do you think Hy could see the goddess although she was not a virgin? I\nthink Tartaros stated unambiguously that that was it was not possible for\nmen who had slept with women or women who had had sex with men to see god or\ngoddess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sorrel is reddish brown color. Chenille's hair, as Roy noted in his other\npost, was not red or reddish. It was dark. How dark I can't say right now;\nI don't believe black, but dark. But her image of herself was having\nreddish hair mingled with dark brown roots. Sorrel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is how Silk described Chenille's hair: \"her tightly\ncurled hair was the color of ripe raspberries.\" (NIGHTSIDE, chap. 10) He\nalso called it \"fiery\". The cat on the hilt of the dagger was \"scarlet\". I\ndon't think any woman's idealized self-image includes dark roots showing\nunder hair dyed her preferred color. And I've never seen a horse the color\nof raspberries. I believe her hair was short as well as curly, not long\nlike Jahlee's in the above quote, but I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't consider that relevant.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001101c597ec$8b736a00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-02T22:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<002801c597c9$098b9350$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Crush wrote:\nLater the Rajan described Jahlee when she is an inhuma again:\n*******************************\n\"The third member of our party is my daughter Jahlee. She is of medium\nheight, red-haired and attractive, with a smooth almond-shaped face and a\nsly smile many find captivating.\"\n~ RTTW pg 20\n*********************************\nIs he describing her soul or the way the way she looks to others? Well, I\ndon't think he considers an inhuma to be his daughter, so I think he\nhimself is describing her soul, but it may be one in the same. Likely it\nis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He was describing her as she looked to any humans they encountered while\ntraveling, the same as other inhumi trying to pass as human. It was her\ndisguise, an illusion. And even then she wasn't tall, like Chenille. She\nlooked different at different times, as in Gaon and at the farmhouse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree. The Rajan didn't describe her at this point has having *many*\nfaces. He is describing an event in the past but describes *her* in the\npresent tense suggesting continuous action. Kind of like the difference\nbetween \"esta\" and \"es\". Not \"sometimes she looks like...\" but \"she looks\nlike...\". Furthermore, he described her using her explicit appearance of\nher\nsoul during dream-travel. You're welcome to any opinion you wish, but I'm\nnot going along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What continuous action? He also described himself and Hide and Oreb in the\npresent tense a few pages earlier. And Oreb still looked just like a night\nchough, \"smaller than a hen\", not the puffed up thing he was during astral\ntravel. Jahlee was a wicked inhuma. She looked as desirable as she could\nmake herself look just to tempt Hide and Silkhorn and any other man she\ncould. She was an animal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why on earth would you think Jahlee would have to physically look like\nChenille to have her soul? We don't agree on much, I know, but I know you\nto\nbe a careful reader. Do you really *really* believe the inhuma *actually*\nlooked physically like the persons whose souls they inherited?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. That seemed to me to be what _you_ were trying to establish with the\nsorrel hair and the quotes about how Jahlee looked during astral travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Physically,\nshe didn't look anything like Chenille. Physically, Krait didn't look\nanything like Sinew. Unless they chose for humans to see them that way\n(which btw is exactly the people see the gods in the Mainframe, according\nto\nTartaros). In the dark bar, the Rajan heard the tenor of her voice and for\na\nmoment believed it was Chenille. I don't think there is any other\nreasonable explanation for that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The inhumi don't have vocal cords anymore than they have hair. Fake voice or\nfake face, what's the difference? Part of the problem here is that I don't\nconcede Jahlee contains Chenille's \"soul\", and I have yet to see proof she\ndoes. Was it the Chenille in her that caused her to try to kill Nettle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sooo...what did Kypris/Silk's mother look like in the mainframe? She\nlooked\nthe way she saw herself. Not as she truly looked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you really think there was a computer terminal under all that rubble,\nprobing a dead man's eyes and reading a dead man's thoughts, and sending\nthe data to Mainframe? Silk was dead, as all those present believed. The\ngods of Mainframe have no power to raise the dead, and Quetzal said so.\nHe didn't believe the Outsider's powers to be any different from the\ncomputer gods. He was wrong. Silk's resurrection was a miracle\norchestrated by the Outsider. His death vision came from the Outsider,\nnot Mainframe. So the people Silk saw in his death vision looked exactly\nas the Outsider portrayed them -- unless the Outsider deceived him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) As for \"reading a dead man's thoughts\" Wolfe doesn't explain how the\nMainframe reads the thoughts of dead people to permit Remora and Hyacinth\nand Silk talk to their mothers when they go to the Sun's end. That ship has\nsailed. Whether you find it believable or not (I find it tough to swallow,\nmyself), it is really beyond hand-wringing as far as the novels go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not quite. Either Silk died and went to Mainframe or he didn't. If he did\n(ignoring the how of it), the data went to the computer. When he came back\nto life, what happened to the data? If it was erased, who erased it? If it\nwasn't erased, the computer contains invalid data which, given Silk's\nimportance to the plans of Pas, should have caused major ripples in the\nschemes of the ship's gods. If when he died he didn't go to Mainframe,\nthings would go on as before, which is what happened, as I see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Someone else also recently asserted that Silk was not in the Mainframe\nbut actually in Heaven. This is how the scene is described:\n*************************\n The Trivigante airship was a brown beetle, infinitely remote, the\nAureate Path so near he knew it could not be his final destination.\n He lighted upon it, and found it a road of tinsel down a whorl no\nbigger than an egg. Where were the lowing beasts? The spirits of the other\ndead?\n************************\nThe text here supports the reading that he was in Heaven, that Silk was not\n*merely* in the Mainframe.However, it also supports the naturalistic\nreading\nas well. Silk IS on the Mainframe's \"Aureate Path\" as the text says (unless\nyou think Wolfe is suggesting there is a tinsel road to Heaven) but from\nwhere he is he can note that it is not the ultimate goal or even much of a\ngoal at all. It is tinsel...phony. Like the \"clockwork\" nature he\ndiscovered\nthe Whorl to have when he was enlightened. So are these people in the\nMainframe or are they from the true afterlife? It seems to me that Wolfe is\nhaving it both ways." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Silk went to \"Heaven\". His soul just left his body briefly.\nSomewhere someone in LS said something to the effect that gods can only\ncommunicate with people by using symbols and terms that they can understand.\nThe only concept of an afterlife Silk was familiar with was what he had been\ntaught about Mainframe afterlife. So that's how the Outsider communicated\nwith him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b) Do you think Hy could see the goddess although she was not a virgin? I\nthink Tartaros stated unambiguously that that was it was not possible for\nmen who had slept with women or women who had had sex with men to see god\nor\ngoddess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he did, he was wrong. Sometime after his wedding night, while on the\nairship, Silk saw Kypris again, when she made him that famous offer to\nbecome Pas. (EXODUS, 346) So, yes, I believe Hy could see Kypris.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15036294.1123080988387.JavaMail.root@wamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-03T07:57:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<001101c597ec$8b736a00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Roy, most of your last response was merely argumentative. I guess we disagree about Jahlee and that's that. I wish you had tried harder, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And why on earth would you think Jahlee would have to physically look like\nChenille to have her soul? We don't agree on much, I know, but I know you\nto be a careful reader. Do you really *really* believe the inhuma *actually*\nlooked physically like the persons whose souls they inherited?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. That seemed to me to be what _you_ were trying to establish with the\nsorrel hair and the quotes about how Jahlee looked during astral travel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. I see. You misunderstood. I was saying that the Rajan was describing her soul, not her physical appearance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The inhumi don't have vocal cords anymore than they have hair. Fake voice or\nfake face, what's the difference?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Errr...because the Rajan explicitly misstook that voice for Chenille's. And it is clear from her response to the Rajan that Jahlee was not intending to mimic her. And we have the parallel example of Tartaros stating the the voices of the simulations are as they perceive them to be. You're not even trying, here. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of the problem here is that I don't\nconcede Jahlee contains Chenille's \"soul\", and I have yet to see proof\nshe does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. But that reasoning is circular, since you haven't noted any proof that *would* convince you, and I doubt there is any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was it the Chenille in her that caused her to try to kill Nettle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a silly refutation. The nature of the inhumi's inherited souls is clearly defined enough for you to be able to distinguish it from \"possession\". \n\nI guess we've done all the damage we're going to do here. I'll move on to your other post.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050803171511.5239.qmail@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T10:15:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<001101c597ec$8b736a00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nb) Do you think Hy could see the goddess although\nshe was not a virgin? I\nthink Tartaros stated unambiguously that that was\nit was not possible for\nmen who had slept with women or women who had had\nsex with men to see god\nor\ngoddess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he did, he was wrong. Sometime after his wedding\nnight, while on the\nairship, Silk saw Kypris again, when she made him that\nfamous offer to\nbecome Pas. (EXODUS, 346) So, yes, I believe Hy could\nsee Kypris.\n\nOR, Silk and Hyacinth did not consumate their vows. \nWhy this would be, I'm not sure, but it could be the\nreason Silk was suicidal on the airship.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Willard", "address": "funesmem6 at msn.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T11:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "<20050803171511.5239.qmail@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about the old Crying Game theory brought up some time ago?\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: don doggett \n To: The Urth Mailing List \n Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:15 PM\n Subject: Re: (urth) Mamelta is Kypris?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " --- \"Roy C. Lackey\" > wrote:\nb) Do you think Hy could see the goddess although\nshe was not a virgin? I\nthink Tartaros stated unambiguously that that was\nit was not possible for\nmen who had slept with women or women who had had\nsex with men to see god\nor\ngoddess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " If he did, he was wrong. Sometime after his wedding\n night, while on the\n airship, Silk saw Kypris again, when she made him that\n famous offer to\n become Pas. (EXODUS, 346) So, yes, I believe Hy could\n see Kypris.\n\n OR, Silk and Hyacinth did not consumate their vows. \n Why this would be, I'm not sure, but it could be the\n reason Silk was suicidal on the airship.\n\n Don" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c5985f$eb92aae0$483dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-03T12:17:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don Doggett quoted and wrote:\nb) Do you think Hy could see the goddess although\nshe was not a virgin? I\nthink Tartaros stated unambiguously that that was\nit was not possible for\nmen who had slept with women or women who had had\nsex with men to see god\nor\ngoddess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he did, he was wrong. Sometime after his wedding\nnight, while on the\nairship, Silk saw Kypris again, when she made him that\nfamous offer to\nbecome Pas. (EXODUS, 346) So, yes, I believe Hy could\nsee Kypris.\n\nOR, Silk and Hyacinth did not consumate their vows.\nWhy this would be, I'm not sure, but it could be the\nreason Silk was suicidal on the airship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He had sex alright; he bragged to Horn about it while on the roof of the\nairship:\n*************************************\n\"I won't ask if you've lain with a woman, Horn; it's too personal a matter\nto broach save in shriving, and I know you too well to shrive you. Should\nyou wish to be shriven, I hope you'll go to Patera Remora.\"\n \"All right.\"\n \"I had not until my wedding night. Indeed, it remains my only such\nexperience. You needn't tell me that Hyacinth has lain with scores of men. I\nknew it and was acutely conscious of it; so was she. I can't say what our\nexperience meant to her, and perhaps it meant little or nothing. To me it\nwas wonderful. Wonderful! I came to her as one starving. And yet?\"\n Still very frightened, Horn jerked his head. \"I know.\"\n \"Good. I'm glad you understand. There was a taint that came from neither\nHyacinth nor me, but from the act itself. After two hours, or about that, I\nrested. We had done what men and women do more than once, and more than\ntwice. I was happy, exhausted, and soiled. I felt that Echidna,\nparticularly, was displeased; and I doubt that I would have had the courage\nif I had not rejected her in my heart after her theophany. You were there, I\nknow.\"\n Horn nodded again. \"She's a very great goddess, Cald?.\"\n \"She is. Great and terrible. It may be that I was wrong to reject her?I\nwon't argue the point. I only say that I had, and felt as I did. As I've\nsaid, the Outsider enlightened me a second time then. I won't tell you all\nthat he told me?I couldn't. But one thing was that he created Pas. The\nSeven, as everyone knows, are the children of Pas and Echidna; it had never\noccurred to me to wonder whence they themselves came.\" (EXODUS, 341)\n*************************************************\n\nI think this quote answers Crush's question, which was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sooo...how does Silk see Kypris and Pas at the end of The Long Sun after\nhis wedding night with Hy when it is a rule that he cannot if he, as a man,\nhas had sex with a woman?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My conservative opinion is that Silk's rejection, in his heart, of Echidna\nis what allowed him to continue to see the gods in violation of her rule. In\nother words, the inability of those with carnal knowledge to see the gods\nwas a function of belief. The Outsider outranked the gods, and Echidna was a\nhypocrite. The taint Silk felt goes back to Genesis.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050803193144.755.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T12:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?- eureka", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c5985f$eb92aae0$483dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n\n****************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this quote answers Crush's question, which\nwas:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Sooo...how does Silk see Kypris and Pas at the end\nof The Long Sun after\nhis wedding night with Hy when it is a rule that he\ncannot if he, as a man,\nhas had sex with a woman?<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My conservative opinion is that Silk's rejection, in\nhis heart, of Echidna\nis what allowed him to continue to see the gods in\nviolation of her rule. In\nother words, the inability of those with carnal\nknowledge to see the gods\nwas a function of belief. The Outsider outranked the\ngods, and Echidna was a\nhypocrite. The taint Silk felt goes back to Genesis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously from the text, Silk and Hy had sex. I\nrecall now that one of the theophanies in a window\nshows a reconstituted Pas choking the life out of\nEchidna. My guess is that this is when Scylla fled\ninto Oreb and when Echidna's ban ceased to have\neffect.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601c59888$f510a490$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-03T17:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?- eureka", "in_reply_to": "<20050803193144.755.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall now that one of the theophanies in a\nwindow shows a reconstituted Pas choking the\nlife out of Echidna. My guess is that this is when\nScylla fled into Oreb and when Echidna's ban ceased\nto have effect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, you figure that the Echidna interface is a security module that\nprevented the other modules from displaying their forms to the human\n\"objects\" if they do not meet the required criteria. With Echidna on the\nrun, she shut down her security functions to reserve power for hiding from\nPas or she had become too corrupted to perform that task. It's not bad\nsupposing. It's conceivable.\n\nBut I think it is suggested that the \"Echidna Rule\" continued 20 years\nafterward. In RTTW pg 110, the Rajan was talking to Hound in Viron:\n\n***********************\n \"Does Scylla appear in your Sacred Windows?\"\n \"Oh, that...Not like it used to be I suppose. She comes to the window\nin the Grand Manteion two or three times a year, or the augurs say she\ndoes.\"\n~ RTTW pg 110\n***********************\n\nNow this could be read to say that Hound simply had never been at the Grand\nManteion when the theophanies occurred. But the way he says it, as though\n\"of course I didn't see with my own eyes\", makes me think that the augurs\nsaw her because they had not had sex with a woman and reported it to Hound\nbecause as a married man he had.\n\nSo I think this suggests the Echidna was not *the* security control. The\noriginal Echidna was the one that insisted all of the divine interfaces\n(gods) had that control, and so that was the way it worked regardless of the\npersistence or corruption of the Echidna interface.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050804050809.17575.qmail@web32412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T22:08:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mamelta is Kypris?- eureka", "in_reply_to": "<003601c59888$f510a490$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nBut I think it is suggested that the \"Echidna Rule\"\ncontinued 20 years\nafterward. In RTTW pg 110, the Rajan was talking to\nHound in Viron:\n\n***********************\n \"Does Scylla appear in your Sacred Windows?\"\n \"Oh, that...Not like it used to be I suppose.\nShe comes to the window\nin the Grand Manteion two or three times a year, or\nthe augurs say she\ndoes.\"\n~ RTTW pg 110\n***********************\n\nNow this could be read to say that Hound simply had\nnever been at the Grand\nManteion when the theophanies occurred. But the way\nhe says it, as though\n\"of course I didn't see with my own eyes\", makes me\nthink that the augurs\nsaw her because they had not had sex with a woman\nand reported it to Hound\nbecause as a married man he had.\n\nSo I think this suggests the Echidna was not *the*\nsecurity control. The\noriginal Echidna was the one that insisted all of\nthe divine interfaces\n(gods) had that control, and so that was the way it\nworked regardless of the\npersistence or corruption of the Echidna interface." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or it could be that there are few functioning windows\nanymore. Half the time the Whorl is in a state of\ninterrupted power. Whatever the case, I don't think\nthat Tartaros was wrong in the way Roy seems to be\nsuggesting. At the time he spoke, the \"rule\" was in\neffect. Something must have changed and it appears to\nhave something to do with Pas' return.\n\nDon \n\n\n\t\t" } ] } ] }