{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4472", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4472, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2005-07-06T22:06:51+00:00", "last": "2005-07-06T22:06:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000e01c582b1$cf16b000$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-07-06T22:06:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fw:", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am saying that Tussah KNEW he is a clone of Typhon. It is likely\nhe even knew that Pas had that name on the Red Sun Whorl (the\nRajan was aware of it). Lemur knows a lot of details about the\nfamily of Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is a bigger assertion than you appear\nto think it, at least based on the cursory treatment of it so far.\nKnowing some details about the history of Typhon, knowing that Pas is\nTyphon, these are significant things to be sure - and one can imagine a few\nvectors this knowledge might be acquired." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only way I can possibly think of for Tussah to know *who*\nhe was a clone of is to get it directly from one of the gods. Presumably\nPas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just supposing here, but if I were writing this story, having\nestablished Silk's remarkable perceptiveness, I would would have had Tussah\n*deduce* his nature. That said, I could imagine lots of ways for Tussah to\nknow up to and including be *told* by his guardians. Nevertheless, it is\n*almost* essential that he be aware of it (although subconscious knowledge cannot be ruled out since this a Wolfe story).\n\nI said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "SILK and TUSSAH and were part of the Plan of Pas with respect to\nViron. But it was not necessary for Typhon to plan it from Urth. Tussah's\nimplantation could be argued to be timed with the Whorl's arrival to Blue,\nbut Silk's was done by after Pas's erasure.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this puts Pas/Typhon in the position of doing *just* the kind of\nplanning that seems most problematic...And there seems no reason at all to\ngo to the trouble of raising Tussah from an embryo and engineering his rise\nto Calde-hood, instead of just working with whoever happens to be in place at\nthe time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Today in Iraq, there are over a hundred thousand US soldier organizing\npatrols and public works projects. I presume this is part of the Plan of US\nGeneral Abizaid. But it is not necessary for Abizaid to have personally\nplanned the current any specific activity. He has layer upon layer of\nindividuals who are working to have his Plan succeed. They derive their\ndaily duties from that Plan, but their focuses change from day to day as\ncircumstances require.\n\nSince it is an *inequivocal* fact that the embryos *were* on the ship to\nwith added abilities to unite and direct the colonists, it seems obvious to\nme that they would start dropping those embryos a couple decades before\nthe colonists' planned departure. Who did that? I would guess the\ntechnicians at either end of the Long Sun. Typhon did not have to *plan*\nthat being done per se. It probably wasn't even his idea. The colonists on\nthe Whorl came in three types: the Cargo who maintained varying cultures\n(presumably artificially created), the Sleepers (who also had their memories\ntinkered with to prevent them overawing the Cargo), and the Embryos,\nand the embryos with their pimped out genes. But the Plan went awry.\nPas was murdered by the other Mainframe modules, Tussah--one of the hyped up embryos--was murdered, and some of the embryos were stolen\nand sold on the black market.\n\nTussah's implantation was *probably* part of the orderly Plan. But Silk's\nimplantation and any subsequent similarly purposeful implantations (Mucor's\ntype does count) only required parties with means to emplant them and a\ndesire to see the Plan to succeed. It was CERTAINLY not necessary for\nSilk's ascension to the Caldeship be planned from Urth. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Silk meets Mamelta\nrather than Kypris in Mainframe would imply that the same would apply to\nhis father; since we know Typhon doesn't make it on the Whorl, it would\nimply that Silk's father is someone other than Typhon. So I don't think\nthat interpretation is favorable for your purposes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Buuuut, the father is NOT identified and Mamelta *is*. However, if \nMamelta = Kypris then Silk's bio dad is Typhon (unless you think Ty was\nbeing cuckholded)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If it were important to hide a child from the eyes of the powerful, then\nthe best schools might be the worst place for his welfare.\nPutting [child who was the image of Tussah] in the best schools\nprobably would have been murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To fly under the radar you have to place him in the worst place you can\nfind? A nice middle-income neighborhood would have done just fine for\nconcealment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No it would not. The essence of middle class is social mobility. If you want to\nhide someone from the eyes of the powerful in a limited space (such as a\ncity), you have to place that person as far from the eyes of the powerful as\npossible...such as a neglected neighborhood. What difference would it make?\nWith the leadership clones' innate skills they could overcome any social\nobstacles to rise like a cork from the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Doesn't\nSik's ascension prove that?\n\nWhat was the plan in placing a clone in Horn's neighborhood?\nHave you read \"A Confederacy Of Dunces\"? There's a pivotal scene where Burma\nJones, in an act of sabotage writes information identifying his employer on\na bag of pornography. Why? How would that be sabotage? \"Because it doesn't\nbelong there,\" he says. He doesn't have a plan beyond that. By the same\ntoken, I doubt whoever implanted Horn had a specific plan for how he would\nbe used either, but such a clone would be a powerful tool and it would have\nTussah's face and it was against the Ayuntamientos perceived interests...so\nthat would be enough. Quetzal looks like a better and better choice since\nSilk was MOVED to that neighborhood by the Charter. But, truth is not really\nstated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Based on Mark Millman's hint found the relevant quote on page 139 of\n\"Sword and Citadel\". What Typhon says of his face is that \"it is the face\nthat men are customed to obey\". Obviously that is not an issue on the\nWhorl unless Typhon intends the colonists to be ruled by physical\nrepresentations of monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incorporating Mark's insight here creates something of a pretzel of logic\nthat is difficult to straighten out..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well lets start by quoting the text then:\n******************************\n\"Why should you desire to have such a thing done?\"\n\n\"That I might have life, of course...My physicians, of whom I naturally had\nthe best of many worlds, told me it might be possible for me to take a new\nbody, their first thought being to enclose my brain in the skull previously\noccupied by another. You see the flaw in that?...The face--the face! The\nface would be lost, and it is the face that men are accustomed to obey!...\nI told them it wouldn't do. Then one came who suggested that the entire\nhead might be substituted. It would even be easier, he said because the\ncomplex neutral connections controlling speech and vision would be left intact.\nI promised him a palatinate if he should succeed.\"\n\n\"It would appear to me--\" I began.\n\nTyphon laughed once more. \"That it would be better if the original head were\nremoved first. Yes, I always thought so myself. But the technique of making\nneural connections was difficult, and he found that the best way--all this\nwas with experimental subjects I provided for him--was to transfer only the\nvoluntary functions by surgery. When that was done, the involuntary one's\ntransferred themselves, eventually. Then the original head could be removed.\nIt would leave a scar, of course, but a shirt would cover it.\"\n\n\"But something went wrong?\" [...]\n\nMostly a matter of time.\" The terrible vigor of his voice, which had been\nunrelenting, now seemed, now seemed to wane. \"Piaton was one of my\nslaves--not the largest, but the strongest of all. We tested them. It never\noccurred to me that someone with his strength might be strong, too, in\nholding to the action of the heart...It was a period of great confusion as\nwell.\"\n******************************" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first question is, did Typhon possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, or not?\nIf no, then Silk/Tussah (who *do* possess such special genetic abilities)\nare not of Typhon's line. So your answer here has to be \"yes\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree. Are you saying that if you had a grandchild with a genetic\ndisorder who benefited from gene therapy, that he would not be of your line\nanymore?\n\nOr are you saying that a clone who has had his genes tinkered with to some\ndegree is by definition no longer a clone? Well then what of the multi-armed\ntwin Number Five found? This is an interesting case for Sci-Fi family court,\nbut it doesn't matter in this case, because I assert:\n\n1) Tussah considered himself to be a clone of Typhon.\n2) Tussah knew Silk's genetic relation to Typhon.\n3) Tussah, therefore, called Silk \"the son not of my body\", NOT in order to\ndifferentiate his unnamed successor from all other claimants (since knowledge\nof that was clearly and ultimately not necessary), BUT because he considered\nit a fact. A simple fact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The second question is, if Typhon did possess special genetic powers of\nleadership, then why did he have to worry so much about his face?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I hope I shown that it is not necessary for Ty to have such special\nmanufactured powers. And the text shows that that was not the reason\nfor his concern over his face. The issue is that the people are\nACCUSTOMED to obey his face. Enclose his brain in another body\nand to that extent he is starting from scratch. Enemies might even let out\nthat he is NOT the real Typhon, but a ursurper. The power of dictators\nlay in their ability to prove that coming against them is fruitless. If there\nwere any question about who was really in there. The whole farce\nwould collapse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the whole two-headed monster thing isn't exactly\nfamiliar (or positive, either). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Pas did not originally intend to have that head very long. His testimony states that Piaton held on to the involuntary bodily functions longer than expected and the do to all the \"confusion\" the an occasion never arose where it was convenient to figure out how to help it along." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[And of course even without connecting the leadership genes to facial\nfeatures, one still expects Typhon's son (if he is to have similar\nabilities) to take after his father quite a bit.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sons don't always look like their fathers. Sometimes they look like their mothers instead. It happens. But Silk did inherit his father's blonde hair and physical supposed physical significance. " } ] } ] }