{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4478", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4478, "subject": "The eyes of a clone", "messages": 21, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-07-27T21:02:28+00:00", "last": "2005-08-13T10:17:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000c01c59329$29228ec0$063dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-07-27T21:02:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The four people Silk saw in his vision during his brief 'death' in the\ntunnel collapse were, first, his mother, the woman who carried his embryo to\nterm and raised him, the woman he calls \"Mother\". Second was the man with\nthe face of the carved bust in his mother's closet, Tussah. Third was the\ntall, blue-eyed man who said \"We're your parents.\" and \"Your fathers and\nyour mothers.\" This blue-eyed man is presumed to be Silk's biological\nfather. Fourth was the reticent woman who is not described and who is his\npresumptive biological mother. With this much there is little, if any,\ndispute that I am aware of.\n\nWhere Crane came from, blue eyes were so rare that Silk's were only the\nthird pair he had ever seen. Though not so rare in Viron, Silk estimated\nthat only about one in one-hundred people there had them. He said he took\nparticular note of people with blue eyes because he had been teased about\nhis as a kid. Nineteen-year-old Chenille, who wished she had blue eyes but\ndidn't (they are several times described as being \"dark eyes\"), told Silk\nthat there was one current and one recent, former whore (Arolla) at Orchid's\nwith blue eyes. Since Crane served as whorehouse physician, presumably those\ntwo were the other two blue-eyed people he had seen before meeting Silk. If\nthat leaves out Hyacinth, I can't help it. Mamelta must have been the fourth\nperson Crane saw who had blue eyes.\n\nTyphon's eye color is not given in the Urth cycle, but he has yellow hair,\nwhich is often the case for people with blue eyes, just as is the case with\nSilk. So it is very possible, even likely, that Typhon had blue eyes. Some\nhold that the tall, blue-eyed man in Silk's vision was Typhon. It's\npossible, but if so it's the only instance that I am aware of of Typhon\nbeing depicted as monocephalic in the LONG SUN or SHORT SUN books. After\nall, Silk noted the blue eyes but, if he saw two pairs of eyes and two\nheads, he didn't think them worth mentioning.\n\nI don't know Tussah's eye color, but his facial features (\"wide, flat\ncheeks, the narrow eyes, the high, rounded forehead, and the generous mouth\"\n[CALDE, chap. 10] ) were so much like Chenille's that the resemblance is\nwhat convinced Silk that she was Tussah's natural daughter. Chenille's \"dark\neyes\" are later specifically labeled as brown, and Horn thought that beneath\nher dyed curls her hair was \"dark\". (EXODUS, 338) Horn also said that Silk\ndidn't look like Chenille.\n\nBy now, anyone who cares will have guessed where I'm going with this. Crush\nhas insisted that both Tussah and Horn are clones of Typhon and that the\ntall, blue-eyed man in Silk's vision was Typhon. I don't have proof that\nTussah wasn't a clone of Typhon, so I'll let that go, for now. But I do find\nit more than a little queer that Silk failed to notice that both men in his\nvision looked exactly alike. I would be even more amazed that Silk also\nfailed to notice how much Horn looked like a fifteen-year-old version of the\nmen in his vision -- he could see the resemblance of the older teen,\nChenille, to Tussah, after all -- but for the fact that Silk didn't see the\nresemblance because it wasn't there.\n\nChapter 1, NIGHTSIDE:\n\"With a slight shock of insight, Silk realized that this unaccustomed\nperpendicularity was in imitation of his own, and that Horn's clear, dark\neyes were very nearly level with his.\"\n\nDark eyes, like Chenille's. Brown eyes. If the blue-eyed man in the vision\nwas Typhon, then Horn can not be a clone of his.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050731095626.4E48C33C55@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-07-31T02:56:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c59329$29228ec0$063dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wrote:\n\n\n\nI've long felt that if Wolfe is teasing us with hidden family \ncurrents, one of them might lead from Sev to Horn. \n\nThere are a bunch of little things you can drag together to make \nthis look borderline plausible.\n\nWhen Sev meets the Autarch on the battlefield towards the end of \nCitadel, the Autarch tells him: \"Tou ... have always seemed to me a \n\nconstruction of horn and boiled leather.\" \n\nOn Green, he carries a sword which might suggest Terminus Est. One \nof the first Neighbors he meets refers to him as (something like), \n\"You who have been all of your race.\" He's an ummm severe kind of \ncharacter, resourceful, most happy when apart from the mass of \nhumanity, with a strong romantic streak, and certain non-PC \nelements in his approach to sexual relations. \n\nTheir stories have certain parallels: setting out on a lone journey \n\ninto the unknown, melding characters with other parties, enrolled \nby higher powers as an agent of salvation.\n\nAssuming that dark versus light coloring is significant - he, like \nSev, is dark.\n\nAt least this would give some kind of depth to the otherwise \ndisappointing Silkhorn-meets-Sev passages in Short Sun.\n\nMaybe there's a wider loop, too, embracing Ymar as well. The \nparallels betwen Ymar and Sev are many & blatant: they must, \nsomehow, be the \"same\". Ymar the Alpha, Sev the Omega. \n\nOn a little tangent, I think Sev's childhood play-tomb must be \nYmar's. It's surely the tomb of someone who went off in a ship and \nreturned. If we are to believe (as we are told) that Sev's \npredecessor was the first Autarch since Ymar to make the journey, \nthen whose else could it really be? At the end of New Sun, we are \nleft with the suggestion that it was Sev's own tomb, somehow or \nother; I think it must have been both Sev's and Ymar's - again, \nsomehow or other." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050731235007.19995.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-07-31T16:50:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<20050731095626.4E48C33C55@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nOn a little tangent, I think Sev's childhood\nplay-tomb must be \nYmar's. It's surely the tomb of someone who went off\nin a ship and \nreturned. If we are to believe (as we are told) that\nSev's \npredecessor was the first Autarch since Ymar to make\nthe journey, \nthen whose else could it really be? At the end of\nNew Sun, we are \nleft with the suggestion that it was Sev's own tomb,\nsomehow or \nother; I think it must have been both Sev's and\nYmar's - again, \nsomehow or other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, thank you. I for one am 110% behind you on\nthis. \n\nDon\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-07-31T19:44:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<20050731095626.4E48C33C55@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master-of-the-sea writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a little tangent, I think Sev's childhood play-tomb must be\nYmar's. It's surely the tomb of someone who went off in a ship and\nreturned. If we are to believe (as we are told) that Sev's\npredecessor was the first Autarch since Ymar to make the journey,\nthen whose else could it really be? At the end of New Sun, we are\nleft with the suggestion that it was Sev's own tomb, somehow or\nother; I think it must have been both Sev's and Ymar's - again,\nsomehow or other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But not only is there a ship on the door, there's a rose and a fountain--and \nif ever two symbols clashed with what we know of Ymar, it's these. Remember \nhis nickname? As we learn in _Urth_ it's Reechy, because as the future first \nautarch tells Severian (and grinning no less, as if he's proud of the fact), \n\"It's because I stink.\" (p 268). So please tell me how a symbol connected \nwith water, cleanliness and purity, as well as a flower known for its lovely \nsmell, comes to be associated with someone who, because he's foresworn \nbathing of any kind, is anything but roselike.\n\n(I do, however, note that if you rearrange the letters in Ymar you get \n-Mary, as in Rosemary, the Wolfe-man's bride of some 49 years.)\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c5964d$9b194560$bc3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-07-31T21:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote:\nWhen Sev meets the Autarch on the battlefield towards the end of\nCitadel, the Autarch tells him: \"Tou ... have always seemed to me a\n\nconstruction of horn and boiled leather.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there another term for boiled leather that can be linked to a named\ncharacter? I don't know; I'm asking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Assuming that dark versus light coloring is significant - he [Horn], like\nSev, is dark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both have dark eyes and Sev has dark hair, but Sev has very pale skin, as\nwas textually established last month by Tony Ellis. Msg also posted this\nphysical description of Sev, attributed to Wolfe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe: You didn't say at what point in his life, so I'll choose him at the\ntime he leaves the Citadel. He is 6' 1\" and weighs 175 pounds. He is pale,\nwith dark eyes, dark straight hair, and good teeth. His face is long and\nrather bony; high, square forehead, moderately high cheekbones, strong\nchin.\nHe is muscular; his hands are a little larger than average." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not incidentally, Sev's dark hair puts some hurt on any\nSev-is-a-clone-of-yellow-haired-Typhon theories, irrespective of whether or\nnot Typhon had blue eyes. To say nothing of Sev and Silk being clones" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe there's a wider loop, too, embracing Ymar as well. The\nparallels betwen Ymar and Sev are many & blatant: they must,\nsomehow, be the \"same\". Ymar the Alpha, Sev the Omega." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think someone has suggested that Ymar may have been a clone of Typhon, but\nthat can't be, either. Ymar had \"wild black hair\". (URTH, 265) As for Sev\nbeing a clone of Ymar (or vice versa), Sev said this of him: \"He flushed,\nhis dark cheeks growing darker still.\" (260) For me, those dark cheeks and\nSev's pale face weigh against their being clones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a little tangent, I think Sev's childhood play-tomb must be\nYmar's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have _never_ been able to get an answer as to who was buried in Sev's\ntomb. In fact, the only person I could be pretty sure _wasn't_ buried there\nwas Sev. I mean, the two times Sev died and left a body behind, on\nTzadkiel's ship and in Apu's tomb, don't give me any reason to suppose they\nhad been or would be relocated there. Certainly it isn't related or implied\nin the narrative. Your suggestion solves the problem, Alexander style. I was\nasking the wrong question!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's surely the tomb of someone who went off in a ship and\nreturned. If we are to believe (as we are told) that Sev's\npredecessor was the first Autarch since Ymar to make the journey,\nthen whose else could it really be? At the end of New Sun, we are\nleft with the suggestion that it was Sev's own tomb, somehow or\nother; I think it must have been both Sev's and Ymar's - again,\nsomehow or other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that business about Sev at that point (right after B F & O resurrected\nhim in Apu's tomb) looking so much like the funeral bronze he remembered\nshould be accounted for, but it isn't in the text. And it leaves unsettled\nwhether or not the tomb Cilinia was buried in is the same tomb where Sev\nplayed. The discrepancies MSG pointed out can't be ignored. Don Doggett has\nalso made the suggestion that Sev's tomb was really Ymar's. You both may be\nright. The tomb was not built during Sev's lifetime, at least not during the\ntime we are shown, and when he left Apu's time he went back to Ushas. His\nstory ends there and the drowned tomb becomes moot to Urth.\n\nThe Citadel antedates Typhon and the topmost area of the sides of the hill\nmay have been used already by the time Typhon came along. Sev's childhood\nplayhouse wasn't too far down the hill, iirc. It makes sense for the tomb to\nhave been built early in the autarchy, if not before. When -- and _why_ --\nwould a tomb for Sev have been built long before he was even born?\n\nThe lives of Typhon and Ymar overlapped, but Ymar was a wretched boy and\nTyphon secluded and near death on his mountain. I don't see any connection\nbetween them. I don't know how Ymar became the ruler, but I find it easier\nto believe that Typhon's young daughter was buried in Ymar's tomb than in\nSev's tomb, assuming she wasn't buried in a different tomb altogether.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508010415.j714F0tL014476@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-07-31T21:15:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c5964d$9b194560$bc3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:44:41 -0700 mournings glory \n wrote:\nBut not only is there a ship on the door, there's a rose and a \nfountain--and \nif ever two symbols clashed with what we know of Ymar, it's these. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember \nhis nickname? As we learn in _Urth_ it's Reechy, because as the \nfuture first \nautarch tells Severian (and grinning no less, as if he's proud of \nthe fact), \n\"It's because I stink.\" (p 268). So please tell me how a symbol \nconnected \nwith water, cleanliness and purity, as well as a flower known for \nits lovely \nsmell, comes to be associated with someone who, because he's \nforesworn \nbathing of any kind, is anything but roselike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't think he's actually \"foresworn bathing of any kind\". \nIn winter it's hard for a servant boy of the proto-torturers to \nwash. I doubt that he'll still be known as \"Reechy\" once he becomes \nthe first Autarch. \n\nThe rose & fountain are symbols of renewal, which on this story of \ncourse would have come to Ymar from Sev's brief mission in the \nproto-Matachin Tower. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508010543.j715h89t018445@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-07-31T22:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<200508010415.j714F0tL014476@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there another term for boiled leather that can be linked to a \nnamed\ncharacter? I don't know; I'm asking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Google gives me \"cuir boulli; the root of the later word cuirass, \nused to describe a breastplate\". Not a lot of help.\n\nI dislike the whole clone thing & wish it would go away. AFAIK, \nthere's nothing in the text to suggest that Silk or anybody else is \n\na clone. The info we have on Silk is that he had, almost certainly, \n\na biological father & mother (whose spirits we glimpse on the \nAureate Path); and that, most probably, his embryo was tinkered \nwith to make him more . \n\n(How come Silk is short-sighted? I doubt that Typhon ever had to \nwear glasses. I guess the embryo timkering couldn't catch \neverything. Is there a plausible short-sighted blue-eyed biological \n\nfather or mother anywhere?) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002901c59883$2a5d9140$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-03T16:28:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c59329$29228ec0$063dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Tony and Thassocrat, please avert your eyes.)\n\n**************************\n \"When the last calde's will was read, it said, 'Though he is not the\nson of my body, my son will succeed me.' What do you make of that?\"\n Silk stroked his cheek. \"It didn't name this son?\"\n \"No. I've given you the entire clause.\"\n~ Epiphany of the LS, pg 125\n***************************\n\nIn his original post for this thread, Roy laid out Silk's meeting with his\nparents. Ultimately, he asserted essentially that:\n**Typhon, or at least Silk's bio-dad, had blue eyes and Horn had dark eyes\n(like Chenille) so therefore Horn is not a clone of Typhon, or at least not\na clone of Silk's bio-dad.**\n\nHowever, Roy, I think you moved off-track rather early in your argument.\nSpecifically in the first paragraph when you said the following:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This blue-eyed man is presumed to be Silk's biological\nfather. Fourth was the reticent woman who is not described and who is his\npresumptive biological mother. With this much there is little, if any,\ndispute that I am aware of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, this *is* quite disputable. Let's take a look at the actual\nreference. As is so frequently the case with Wolfe's writing and\nconversation, just when you think he is being totally objective and\nstraightforward, you find he has deliberately smudged everything:\n*************************\n The Trivigante airship was a brown beetle, infinitely remote, the\nAureate Path so near he knew it could not be his final destination.\n He lighted upon it, and found it a road of tinsel down a whorl no\nbigger than an egg. Where were the lowing beasts? The spirits of the other\ndead? There! Two men and two women. He blinked and stared and blinked again.\n \"Oh, Silk! My son! Oh, son!\" She was in his arms and he in hers,\nmelting in tears of joy. \"Mother!\" \"Silk, my son!\"\n The whorl was filth and stink, futility and betrayal; this was\neverything--joy and love, freedom and purity.\n \"You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you.\"\n \"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been\na species of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his\nmother's closet.\n \"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed, \"Your fathers and your\nmothers.\"\nThe other woman did not speak, but her eyes spoke truth.\n \"You were my mother,\" he said. \"I understand.\" He looked down at his\nown beautiful mother. \"You will always be my Mother . Always!\"\n \"We'll be waiting, Silk my son. All of us. Remember.\"\n****************************\n\na) Only one man (it seems) speaks. He has \"the carved brown face from\n[Silk's ] mother's closet.\" He is also tall and blue-eyed. And...here is\nsomething bizarre kicker...he has a voice calling to mind LEMUR's.\nRather than it being the other *woman* who is not described as Roy\nstated, it is actually one of the *men* who is not described. At least for\nthe other woman, we know Silk identifies her as his mother, by her eyes\n(\"her eyes spoke truth\").\n\nAnd this is important, we actually have no confirmation whether the man with\nthe \"carved brown face\" is Tussah or the other father. We presume it is\nTussah...probably it is, but what if it made no difference? The only thing,\nI contend, that we know about this silent man is that Wolfe has said\nextratextually that Silk's *ancestry* is that he is the son of the Calde and\nhis mistress. If you believe -- and I have no real doubt that this is so -- \nthat Silk's bio-mom is the original Kypris, that really only leaves Typhon.\n\nb) Why does the voice of the father who speaks seem reminiscent of Lemur's?\nI won't even speculate, beyond noting that Lemur's brother Loris had \"blue\neyes..like chips of ice\". (Epiphany of the LS pg 287) But then again, that\nwas an artificial body. Does his having blue eyes prove anything in\nparticular? Not based on that alone.\n\nc) But why do readers keep assuming that the man with the \"carved brown\nface\" and the man with the blue eyes are different? Because we instinctively\nknow that that doesn't fit. Eye-color is dependant on the amount of melanin\nyou have. The more melanine, the darker your eyes. A brown faced man with\nblue eyes is...unnatural.\n\nYes, Typhon has blond hair. Silk has reddish blonde hair (as exemplified by\nhis beard-color). Chenille has \"dark\" hair, but she dyes it red. Red hair is\na telling symbol....it identifies a \"Typhonian\" (technically, a vampire, but\nyou get my drift). But in Chenille's case it also is a reminder that unless\nyou've seen someone naked, you don't know if he/she is a real blonde or\nred-head. And Chenille has dark eyes, as Roy noted. So does the implication\nthat Tussah had *blue* eyes mean she is not his \"natural daughter.\" Nope.\nBut it *is* contrary to what one would expect (more so in my case but I\nwon't get into that). Nor can one know whether, even if Severian had\nreported that Typhon had blue eyes, that Typhon was born with that eye\ncolor. However, based on Roy's post, I made my first determined search for\nsuch a reference and I didn't *find* any evidence that Severian noted such a\ndetail.\n\nAt this point, it would be reasonable for me to tie all this up and show how\nit is easily incorporates into my claim that Tussah and Horn are clones of\nTyphon. I can't. I arrived at that conviction based on other clues. But,\nRoy, you have offered no clear explanation of the meaning of this scene\neither: neither it's details nor the reasons for it's ambiguities. We've\nbeen here before, as I recall...in which you offered a puzzle that seems to\nmake no definite sense no matter what one believes, and claimed it \"proved\"\nI'm wrong. It doesn't in this case either. It only proves that the actual\nsituation has more complexities than my argument attempts to envelope.\n\nI *can* say is that I'm dubious of how much can be made of issues like the\ncolor of eyes for these \"souls\", as I explained in my last series of posts.\nThere is good reason to believe that the way souls appear in the Whorl\nsegment is probably the way they *thought* of themselves rather than what\nis evident in their DNA. Tussah's blue eyes bother me. And Silk's blue eyes\nbother me. It ought to bother anyone who thinks about it.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T18:57:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<002901c59883$2a5d9140$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "a) Only one man (it seems) speaks. He has \"the carved brown face from\n[Silk's ] mother's closet.\" He is also tall and blue-eyed. >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't agree with your parenthesis above. Or maybe I should say I \nunderstand why you believe it to be so. But there's also at least one other \nvalid interpretation that can be made since Wolfe quite shrewdly fails to \nattribute all the dialogue in the passage you cite.\n\nYou're assuming, I gather, that the following line is said by Silk's \nmother--who's pretty much overcome by joy and is crying her eyes out:\n\n\"You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you.\"\n\nBut isn't it equally possible that this could have been said by the tall, \nblue-eyed man? Because otherwise the next two paragraphs, it seems to me, \nare artifically broken and should actually read as one, at least if all the \ndialogue is spoken by the same person--as you contend. I.e:\n\n\"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been a \nspecies of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his \nmother's closet. \"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed. \"Your \nfathers and your mothers.\"\n\nI've neither copy editing nor grammarian bona fides, but I just don't see \nwhy you would separate the two halves of Tussah's little speech here and not \nretain the single paragraph.\n\nSo here's how I see everybody saying what:\n\n\"Oh, Silk! My son! Oh, son!\" She was in his arms and he in hers,\nmelting in tears of joy. [Silk's Foster Mother]\n\n\"Mother!\" [Silk]\n\n\"Silk, my son!\" [SFM]\n\n\"You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you.\" [Tall, blue-eyed man.]\n\n\"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been\na species of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his\nmother's closet. [Tussah]\n\n\"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed. \"Your fathers and your\nmothers.\" [TBEM]\n\nOne last followup question: do we ever learn (or can we figure out) what \nSilk's foster mother's name is? I can't recall if it's ever mentioned and \nshe seems too important a character to go deliberately nameless.\n\nmsg (who has no dog in this fight, but still wants to point out that South \nKorea today announced it had successfully cloned a dog--after only 1000 \nfailed attempts, all of which might be had for the cheap somewhere on the \nstreets of Port Mimizon.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-08-03T20:58:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<002901c59883$2a5d9140$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, James Wynn wrote:\n\na) Only one man (it seems) speaks. He has \"the carved brown face from\n[Silk's ] mother's closet.\" He is also tall and blue-eyed. And...here is\n\nc) But why do readers keep assuming that the man with the \"carved brown\nface\" and the man with the blue eyes are different? Because we instinctively\nknow that that doesn't fit. Eye-color is dependant on the amount of melanin\nyou have. The more melanine, the darker your eyes. A brown faced man with\nblue eyes is...unnatural." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is possible that the carved brown face is made of wood -- the \nexperience is pretty dreamy.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c598b1$eecef0e0$363ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-03T22:04:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Crush wrote:\nc) But why do readers keep assuming that the man with the \"carved brown\nface\" and the man with the blue eyes are different? Because we instinctively\nknow that that doesn't fit.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before -- or if -- I respond further, and I probably shouldn't do this\nbecause I don't believe your interpretation in the least, I will point out\nthat you have put a needless obstacle in your own path. No one that I know\nof has said Tussah had a brown face. I don't know what kind of complexion he\nhad. Silk was speaking of the color of the bust itself. The whole thing was\nbrown, and it was brown because it had been carved out of wood.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050804051415.72703.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-03T22:14:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<001001c598b1$eecef0e0$363ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nCrush wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "c) But why do readers keep assuming that the man\nwith the \"carved brown\nface\" and the man with the blue eyes are different?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because we instinctively\nknow that that doesn't fit.<<\n\nBefore -- or if -- I respond further, and I probably\nshouldn't do this\nbecause I don't believe your interpretation in the\nleast, I will point out\nthat you have put a needless obstacle in your own\npath. No one that I know\nof has said Tussah had a brown face. I don't know\nwhat kind of complexion he\nhad. Silk was speaking of the color of the bust\nitself. The whole thing was\nbrown, and it was brown because it had been carved\nout of wood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, it seems true. Simply a poorly thought out\nsentence. Glad to know GW's human.\n\nDon\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009c01c598ee$49788240$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-04T05:14:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<20050804051415.72703.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I always assumed that the face is called \"carved brown\" because\nSilk remembers the face from a wood cutting, not that the face\nis actually brown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is possible that the carved brown face is made of wood\n-- the experience is pretty dreamy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before -- or if -- I respond further, and I probably\nshouldn't do this\nbecause I don't believe your interpretation in the\nleast, I will point out\nthat you have put a needless obstacle in your own\npath. No one that I know\nof has said Tussah had a brown face. I don't know\nwhat kind of complexion he\nhad. Silk was speaking of the color of the bust\nitself. The whole thing was\nbrown, and it was brown because it had been carved\nout of wood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps y'all are right. (At least in this case I can't be accused of\ngenerating the evidence to fit a theory.) But I must point out that this is\nonly the *first* time within the same volume that Tussah's *actual* face is\nclosely associated with the coloring of the that bust in the closet.\n********************************************************\nThe calde's carved countenance rose again before his mind's eye, and it\nseemed to him that he had seen it someplace else only a day or two\nbefore...had seen the caldee outside, because even without his lost glasses\nhe had noticed the powder on the cheeks and flaws that the powder tried to\ncover--had seen him, in that case, under the auspices of the Outsider, in a\nsense.\nEpiphany of the Long Sun pg 287 (Calde)\n\n\"You're sunburned!\" Inwardly, Silk reproached his own stupidity. \"I've been\nlooking at you--gaping actually, I suppose. I hope you'll excuse it, but I\ncouldn't imagine how your face had gotten so red, so close to the red-brown\ncolor of a wood-carving my mother used to have.\"\n~ Ibid, pg 290\n******************************\n\nNote that Chenille with her high cheek-bones (\"flat cheeks\") can herself be\nsaid to have \"carved\" features. So assuming that Chenille looks as much like\nTussah as this text implies, we've confirmed that the \"carved\" adjective is\nnot isolated to Tussah's bust.\n\nPerhaps the brown color refers only to the bust. But the scenes read (red?)\nin conjunction begin to take on a suspicious pattern to me. But then again,\nthe scenes might have been confusingly written.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8837232.1123173696545.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-04T09:41:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<009c01c598ee$49788240$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The actual reference:\n******************\nThere! Two men and two women. He blinked and stared and blinked again.\n \"Oh, Silk! My son! Oh, son!\" She was in his arms and he in hers,\nmelting in tears of joy. \"Mother!\" \"Silk, my son!\"\n The whorl was filth and stink, futility and betrayal; this was\neverything--joy and love, freedom and purity.\n \"You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you.\"\n \"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been\na species of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his\nmother's closet.\n \"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed, \"Your fathers and your\nmothers.\"\nThe other woman did not speak, but her eyes spoke truth.\n \"You were my mother,\" he said. \"I understand.\" He looked down at his\nown beautiful mother. \"You will always be my Mother . Always!\"\n \"We'll be waiting, Silk my son. All of us. Remember.\"\n***************************\n\nI said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a) Only one man (it seems) speaks. He has \"the carved brown face\nfrom [Silk's ] mother's closet.\" He is also tall and blue-eyed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MSG responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't agree with your parenthesis above. Or maybe I should say I \nunderstand why you believe it to be so. But there's also at least one\nother valid interpretation that can be made since Wolfe quite shrewdly\nfails to attribute all the dialogue in the passage you cite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's feels awfully nice to have someone disagree with me while\nacknowledging I'm not making things up to fit a cock-eyed theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...isn't it equally possible that this could have been said by the tall, blue-\neyed man? Because otherwise the next two paragraphs, it seems to me, \nare artificially broken and should actually read as one, at least if all the \ndialogue is spoken by the same person--as you contend. [shouldn't the paragraphs have >been constructed like this instead]:\n\n\"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been a \nspecies of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his \nmother's closet. \"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed. \"Your \nfathers and your mothers.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Rather than:\n \"You must, my lad.\" A man's voice, the voice of which Lemur's had been\na species of mockery. Looking up he saw the carved brown face from his\nmother's closet.\n \"We're your parents.\" He was tall and blue-eyed, \"Your fathers and your\nmothers.\"]\n\nHmmm.\n\n1) It is not at all uncommon for Wolfe to present dialog in which the same\nperson speaks in two separate adjacent paragraphs. I'm not prepared to list\nthem, but I always take note of them because I have to slow down and pay\ncareful attention to who is saying what. However, it is not grammatically\nincorrect to do that. It is also not uncommon for Wolfe to identify a speaker\nonce from the context of the dialog and then leave it to the reader to keep\ntrack of who is saying what from the context.\n\nI can???t think of another example where Wolfe has unattributed dialog without\nproviding any real pointers as to who is saying it, as you suggest Wolfe\nhas done with \"You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you.\"\n\n2) Here is where I throw it in the faces of those people who said my English\ndegree would never be of any use. ;-) If the proper reading is as you say, that\nthe man with the \"carved brown face\" from Silk's closet *is different* from the\ntall blue-eyed man, then Wolfe *is* guilty here a true grammatical error: a\npronoun without an antecedent (that is, \"He was tall and blue-eyed\" does not\nidentify even vaguely who \"he\" is). \"He\" might just as well refer to the Outsider\n(to whom I suppose is being referred when Silk's mother says \"He sends us to tell\nyou.\") -- but it is a different thing to do that in dialog rather than in narration.\nOn the other hand, if it is the man who spoke just previously and is described in the\nprevious sentence, then \"he\" is identified. \n\n3) You say Wolfe has quite shrewdly failed to attribute all the dialogue in the\npassage I cited. I don't think so, but I could be moved in your direction if I could be\nconvinced of the *reasons* you believe Wolfe had for his shrewdness. I can't\nimagine why Wolfe would deliberately confuse who is speaking unless he had\nsome purpose in confabulating who is speaking. And that brings me back to\n*my* theory. \n\nIf my reading is correct, then the text is grammatically well-constructed but confusing\nin exactly the way Wolfe's dialog so often (deliberately) is. If you???re reading is right\n(and it *does* require an intuitive leap to assign \"He was tall and blue-eyed\" to a\nhitherto undescribed man rather than the one described in the previous sentence), the\npassage dialog is seriously flawed, either deliberately or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One last follow-up question: do we ever learn (or can we figure out) what \nSilk's foster mother's name is? I can't recall if it's ever mentioned and \nshe seems too important a character to go deliberately nameless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe she is only called ???Mother, — like Seawrack???s mom. Incidentally, Hyacinth???s\nmother whom she meets in the Mainframe and whom she did not know was dead is\nalso unnamed and seemingly unidentified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "msg (who has no dog in this fight, but still wants to point out that\nSouth Korea today announced it had successfully cloned a dog???\nafter only 1000 failed attempts, all of which might be had for the\ncheap somewhere on the streets of Port Mimizon.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Were any of the failed attempts, six-legged dogs? ;-)\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c59924$a76ae4c0$b83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-04T11:45:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<8837232.1123173696545.JavaMail.root@wamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is possible that the carved brown face is made of wood -- the\nexperience is pretty dreamy.\n\nDavid Duffy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, David, I see that you have preceded me. My apologies.\n\nCrush quoted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The calde's carved countenance rose again before his mind's eye, and it\nseemed to him that he had seen it someplace else only a day or two\nbefore...had seen the caldee outside, because even without his lost glasses\nhe had noticed the powder on the cheeks and flaws that the powder tried to\ncover--had seen him, in that case, under the auspices of the Outsider, in a\nsense.\nEpiphany of the Long Sun pg 287 (Calde)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is another line of text immediately following the word \"before\" in the\nabove quote that starts a new paragraph and which makes things clearer:\n\n\"Streaming sunlight, and cheeks that were not smooth wood but blotched and\nlightly pocked.\"\n\nHe was thinking of Chenille's face as he had seen it in a patch of sunlight\nwhen he talked to her in the arbor a day or two before. Her face was pocked,\nprobably from acne, and she used facial powder to cover it up. Her face was\nso red in the second quoted scene because she had been badly sunburned while\nnaked in the boat on the lake, when she was possessed by Scylla. The wood\nthe bust had been carved from was naturally reddish-brown, as the second\nquote you gave shows. There is no way to determine the color of the\ncomplexion of the face represented on the bust, no way to distinguish it\nfrom the rest of the wood.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000301c59952$99ac96c0$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-04T17:12:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c59924$a76ae4c0$b83ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is another line of text immediately following the word \"before\" in\nthe\nabove quote that starts a new paragraph and which makes things clearer:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Streaming sunlight, and cheeks that were not smooth wood but blotched and\nlightly pocked.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was thinking of Chenille's face as he had seen it in a patch of sunlight\nwhen he talked to her in the arbor a day or two before. Her face was\npocked,\nprobably from acne, and she used facial powder to cover it up. Her face was\nso red in the second quoted scene because she had been badly sunburned\nwhile\nnaked in the boat on the lake, when she was possessed by Scylla. The wood\nthe bust had been carved from was naturally reddish-brown, as the second\nquote you gave shows. There is no way to determine the color of the\ncomplexion of the face represented on the bust, no way to distinguish it\nfrom the rest of the wood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I presumed the reference made it clear that Silk was looking at\nChenille, but you are probably right that I should have clarified that.\nAlso, the \"flaws\" her powder covered don't have to be acne, I suppose. It\ncould be discoloration or...well...any number of things. I don't know.\n\nBut none of that affects my point which I will hammer again.\n\nSilk was looking at Chenille's sunburned reddish-brown face and according to\nthe literal reading of the text, was looking - in some sense - at the very\nface the calde'.\n\n \"The calde's carved countenance rose again before his mind's eye, and\nit seemed to him that he had seen it someplace else only a day or two\nbefore...[he] had seen him, in that case, under the auspices of the\nOutsider, in a sense.\"\n\nThe text says that Silk saw the face of the calde (saw it, as we both agree,\nin Chenille's face) a few days BEFORE this when Chenille's face had not been\nreddened by sunburn. Also, Silk says the bust in his closet was\n*reddish-brown*, thus Chenille's face calls it to mind. But the face of the\nman Silk sees in his near-death experience is said to have been *brown* (not\nreddish-brown) as Chenille's would presumably have been a few days before.\n\nMy point is that there is a pattern of the *actual* face of the Calde'\n(whenever it is referred to) to be described as brown...and carved (ala\n\"carved features\"). Oh yes, it is certainly possible -- easy in fact -- to\ndiscount the precise reading of the text as literary flourishes in these\ncases. But that does at least require the additional act of *discounting* in\norder to do so. I have always found the parallels to be suggestive, and so\nin this case I'm inclined to believe when the narration says Silk saw a\n\"carved brown face\", a \"carved brown face\" is what he saw.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c5997f$b52c41c0$af3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-04T22:37:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000301c59952$99ac96c0$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nI guess I presumed the reference made it clear that Silk was looking at\nChenille, but you are probably right that I should have clarified that.\nAlso, the \"flaws\" her powder covered don't have to be acne, I suppose. It\ncould be discoloration or...well...any number of things. I don't know.\n\nBut none of that affects my point which I will hammer again.\n\nSilk was looking at Chenille's sunburned reddish-brown face and according\nto\nthe literal reading of the text, was looking - in some sense - at the very\nface the calde'.\n\n \"The calde's carved countenance rose again before his mind's eye, and\nit seemed to him that he had seen it someplace else only a day or two\nbefore...[he] had seen him, in that case, under the auspices of the\nOutsider, in a sense.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe it's because you're reading it piecemeal on amazon; I don't know. But\nI'm reading the text from the book. You have the sequence of events a little\nout of order. The two pieces of text you conflated above are what Silk was\nthinking as he was brought up from Blood's cellar by Potto and Sand and\npushed into the room at the top of the cellar stairs. That room was \"full of\nlounging soldiers and armored men.\" Silk had yet to lay eyes on Chenille\nthat day, didn't even know she was in the house. Potto then pushed him into\nanother room, the room where the meeting with Marble, Blood, Loris and the\nothers was to take place, the room where Blood was killed. It was only then\nhe saw Chenille, page 336 of the Tor paperback. It's another four pages\nbefore Silk realized that she was sunburned and made the connection between\nher red face and the color of the wood-carving he had been thinking of\nearlier. He even said then, \"It's just that Chenille has reminded me of a\nchildhood incident, Councillor.\"\n\nMaybe it's irrelevant to your point, but that is \"the precise reading of the\ntext\".\n\nEarlier I wrote:\n\"There is no way to determine the color of the complexion of the face\nrepresented on the bust, no way to distinguish it from the rest of the\nwood.\"\n\nHave you an answer for that? If you don't, then any conclusions drawn about\nthe color of any of the features of the bust are meaningless, because it's\nall the same color.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c59f3b$72391e80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-12T05:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5997f$b52c41c0$af3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have the sequence of events a little\nout of order. The two pieces of text you conflated above are what Silk was\nthinking as he was brought up from Blood's cellar by Potto and Sand and\npushed into the room at the top of the cellar stairs. That room was \"full\nof lounging soldiers and armored men.\" Silk had yet to lay eyes on Chenille\nthat day, didn't even know she was in the house. Potto then pushed him into\nanother room, the room where the meeting with Marble, Blood, Loris and the\nothers was to take place, the room where Blood was killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been trying to figure out how you have divided the room \"full of\nlounging soldiers and armored men\" from the room with Chenille, Marble,\nBlood, etc. I've read the scene over and over and it is pretty clear that\nthey are one in the same. Perhaps it is different in your edition?\n\n+++++++++++++\n\"This way,\" Potto told him, and pushed him through a door and into a\ngorgeous room full of lounging soldiers...\"\n[...]\n\"The calde's carved countenance rose again before his mind's eye...\"\n[...]\nBlood and Maytera Marble were sitting side-by-side when Potto shoved Silk\ninto the room; he was so surprised to see her for a moment he failed to\nnotice Chenille, Xiphias, and a drooping augur lined up against the wall.\n~ Epiphany of the Long Sun (Calde) pg 286\n+++++++++++++++++++\n\nThere is *no* description of a third room.\n\nNone. The obvious implication from the totality of the scene is that when\nSilk enters the room he sees Chenille but does not \"notice\" her. But he does\nsee her and so the \"calde's carved countenance rose before his mind's eye\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe it's irrelevant to your point, but that is \"the precise reading of\nthe text\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it probably is irrelevant to both my point and yours. So I don't\nknow why you brought it up. But I've clarified it in case it proves useful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier I wrote:\n\"There is no way to determine the color of the complexion of the face\nrepresented on the bust, no way to distinguish it from the rest of the\nwood.\"\n\nHave you an answer for that? If you don't, then any conclusions drawn about\nthe color of any of the features of the bust are meaningless, because it's\nall the same color." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why are having so much difficulty in this. There are three\n\"faces\" in this and the near-death scene. \"The calde\", the sculpture\n(red-brown), and Chenille (with her powder covering her flaws two days\nbefore and with a red-brown sunburned face now).\n\nSilk enters a room with Chenille's sunburned face and recalls \"calde's\ncarved countenance\". I'm not confabulating anything. Wolfe did. At the same\nmoment, he speculates that he has seen the calde' himself only days before\n(when seeing Chenille). So on this same page, Wolfe confabulates Chenille's\nface with the sculpture's face and then Chenille's face with the calde's. In\nhis near-death experience Wolfe confabulates the face of the calde with that\nof the sculpture.\n\nThe obvious implication...almost flatly stated in fact...is that when\nlooking at the face of Chenille, one is *somehow* looking at the face of the\ncalde. The only reason no one has made much of in IMO is that accepting it\nrequires pretty wild speculating.\n\nSo it is not necessary for the sculpture to have Chenille's facial \"flaws\".\nAt that time (and the \"precise reading of the text\" is clear about this)\nChenille's face was being confabulated with the calde's.\n\nI" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002001c59f78$cf832ee0$463ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-12T13:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c59f3b$72391e80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nI've been trying to figure out how you have divided the room \"full of\nlounging soldiers and armored men\" from the room with Chenille, Marble,\nBlood, etc. I've read the scene over and over and it is pretty clear that\nthey are one in the same. Perhaps it is different in your edition?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it isn't different in any edition. There are two rooms in question here,\nthe one \"full of lounging soldiers and armored men\" and the room where the\nmeeting was held and Blood died. It isn't a matter of opinion. If you need\nfurther elaboration, it exists.\n\nWhen Marble came to the front door of the house, the door was opened and she\nsaw that the room it opened on contained \"soldiers, and bios in silvered\narmor.\" (CALDE, Tor paperback, 327) Blood was standing behind them. She goes\non to describe the room as \"the hall\". Following some banter with Blood, who\nwanted some privacy, he said to her (next page):\n-----------------------------------\n \"You'd probably like to sit. I know I would. Come in here, and I think\nwe can settle this.\"\n He showed her into a paneled drawing room and shut the door firmly. \"My\nboys are getting edgy,\" he explained, \"and that gets me edgy around them.\"\n------------------------------------\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000f01c59fc4$ed0a0370$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-12T22:06:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<002001c59f78$cf832ee0$463ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But, Roy, whatever the floorplan this passage causes you to imagine,\nsurely the passage that starts with...\n\n\"This way,\" Potto told him, and pushed him through a door and into a\ngorgeous room full of lounging soldiers...\"\n\nand ends with...\n\n\"Blood and Maytera Marble were sitting side-by-side when Potto shoved Silk\ninto the room; he was so surprised to see her for a moment he failed to\nnotice Chenille, Xiphias, and a drooping augur lined up against the wall.\"\n\n...is the relevant one and that passage makes it clear that Silk is only\npassing from one room to another, and the entire group is sitting in the\n\"gorgeous room full of lounging soldiers\". Otherwise, you have to *imagine*\nSilk, Potto, and Sand filing into a \"hall\" (an event not described)\ncontaining not just Marble and Blood but literally everybody else as well.\nAnd this \"hall\" contains shelves with knick-knacks and a window as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, it isn't different in any edition. There are two rooms in question\nhere, the one \"full of lounging soldiers and armored men\" and the room\nwhere he meeting was held and Blood died. It isn't a matter of opinion.\nIf you need further elaboration, it exists.\n\nWhen Marble came to the front door of the house, the door was opened and\nshe saw that the room it opened on contained \"soldiers, and bios in\nsilvered armor.\" (CALDE, Tor paperback, 327) Blood was standing behind\nthem. She goes on to describe the room as \"the hall\". Following some banter\nwith Blood, who wanted some privacy, he said to her (next page):\n-----------------------------------\n\"You'd probably like to sit. I know I would. Come in here, and I think\nwe can settle this.\"\nHe showed her into a paneled drawing room and shut the door firmly. \"My\nboys are getting edgy,\" he explained, \"and that gets me edgy around them.\"\n------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401c5a02a$f14aaa00$203ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-13T10:17:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The eyes of a clone", "in_reply_to": "<000f01c59fc4$ed0a0370$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nBut, Roy, whatever the floorplan this passage causes you to imagine,\nsurely the passage that starts with...\n\n\"This way,\" Potto told him, and pushed him through a door and into a\ngorgeous room full of lounging soldiers...\"\n\nand ends with...\n\n\"Blood and Maytera Marble were sitting side-by-side when Potto shoved Silk\ninto the room; he was so surprised to see her for a moment he failed to\nnotice Chenille, Xiphias, and a drooping augur lined up against the wall.\"\n\n...is the relevant one and that passage makes it clear that Silk is only\npassing from one room to another, and the entire group is sitting in the\n\"gorgeous room full of lounging soldiers\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, James. No. Two rooms are involved. The hall (also called the foyer by\nMarble), which contained a landscape by Murtagon, the \"gorgeous room full of\nlounging soldiers\". And the drawing room, where Blood took Marble and the\nmeeting with the others subsequently took place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Otherwise, you have to *imagine*\nSilk, Potto, and Sand filing into a \"hall\" (an event not described)\ncontaining not just Marble and Blood but literally everybody else as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Marble and Blood were not in the hall when Silk was brought up from the\ncellar. They were in the drawing room, which was reached by a door from the\nhall. The soldiers and troopers were in the hall.\n\nBlood wanted to speak with Marble/Rose in private. That's why he left the\nhall full of soldiers and went into the drawing room with her. There are\nreferences in their conversation that make it crystal clear that the\nsoldiers are not in the same room:\n\nMarble: \"Here in private you may call me a trull or a trollop . . .\"\n\nand\n\nMarble: \". . . I saw a lot of slug guns out there in your foyer.\"\n\nLater, after Blood told Marble he would set up the meeting, is when the\ndazed and confused Silk was pushed by Potto into the drawing room. That is\nwhen he saw Marble, Blood, Chenille, Xiphias, Incus and Loris. Potto and\nSand came into the room with Silk. After introductions, Sand was dismissed\nby Potto. He left the room, \"shutting the door behind him.\" That's everyone\npresent, until Oreb flew in through the open window. There are several\nreferences that, again, make clear that the soldiers and troopers are out in\nthe hall. But I'm not going to bother to list them. I've wasted far too much\ntime and effort already. I'll give just one. When Loris shattered the marble\nbookend it made a loud noise. \"The door flew open, revealing Sand and two\nother soldiers with leveled slug guns.\" Potto said, \"It's all right. Shut\nit.\" (338)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Marble came to the front door of the house, the door was opened and\nshe saw that the room it opened on contained \"soldiers, and bios in\nsilvered armor.\" (CALDE, Tor paperback, 327) Blood was standing behind\nthem. She goes on to describe the room as \"the hall\". Following some\nbanter\nwith Blood, who wanted some privacy, he said to her (next page):\n-----------------------------------\n\"You'd probably like to sit. I know I would. Come in here, and I think\nwe can settle this.\"\nHe showed her into a paneled drawing room and shut the door firmly. \"My\nboys are getting edgy,\" he explained, \"and that gets me edgy around them.\"\n------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The drawing room was emptied again later of all but Silk and Marble, so that\nthey could have a private talk. During that talk was when Blood elected to\nsneak outside the house and re-enter the drawing room through the window. In\nthe wake of his firing of an azoth, \"the door flew in with a crash\". \"From\nbehind Sergeant Sand and a second soldier equally large, Potto barked,\n'_Shoot him_!'\" (366) That, of course, is what led to the two soldiers\nturning around and shooting Potto.\n\nI don't think that even you believe that two councillors and Blood would\ndiscuss their schemes and criminal activities in the presence of soldiers\nand troopers.\n\nLost in all of this is your point about when Silk was thinking what, and\nwhen he saw Chenille for the first time that day. The one-or-two room issue\nis irrelevant to all but your reading of an admittedly confusing passage.\nI've established that there were two rooms, and I explained it all earlier.\n\nThose are the facts. I can do no more.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }