{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4488", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4488, "subject": "Travelin' Jahlee", "messages": 29, "voices": 4, "first": "2005-08-10T14:23:38+00:00", "last": "2005-08-18T20:58:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c59df1$c1b263e0$593dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-10T14:23:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jahlee came to Blue at least twice. The fact that she fed on infant Sinew\nand was mother to Krait is sufficient proof of that. She had to return to\nGreen to spawn, then came back to Blue, was caught and buried under stones,\nthen dug up by Silkhorn. That much is certain.\n\nWhat is less clear is how she got to Blue the first time, when she bit\nSinew.\n\nSinew was conceived on the _Whorl_, so he could have been no more than 2 or\n3 years old when bitten; he was still small enough to be sleeping in a\nbasket made by Nettle. In the scene where Silkhorn and Jahlee made that\nimpromptu astral visit to Green, the visit where she got left behind in that\nroom on the high cliff, she told him about learning to fly. She said that it\nhad taken her \"years\" just to be able to fly up to the room (IGJ, 61), and\neven after reaching it that she still had to learn more before attempting\nthe Crossing.\n\nIt's also clear from that scene that she already had a human spirit when she\nwas very young; that is what motivated her to want to make the crossing.\nPresumably she was born with it. So, the question is: If Sinew was attacked\nby Jahlee during the first 2 or 3 years of colonization, before she was able\nto make the Crossing under her own power, how did she get to Blue?\n\nI can think of only one solution -- she came on a lander. Either she boarded\none of those landers that returned to the _Whorl_ automatically (like\nAbanja's), then went from the _Whorl_ to Blue on the same or another lander,\nor, she went directly from Green to Blue on a lander, like the slave ship\nfrom Pajarocu. Either way, what was Wolfe's point in having her go to Blue\nbefore she could fly properly?\n\nHas anyone a better answer?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508102359.j7ANx6WT002110@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-10T16:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c59df1$c1b263e0$593dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:23:24 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nJahlee came to Blue at least twice. The fact that she fed on \ninfant Sinew\nand was mother to Krait is sufficient proof of that. She had to \nreturn to\nGreen to spawn, then came back to Blue, was caught and buried \nunder stones,\nthen dug up by Silkhorn. That much is certain.\n\nWhat is less clear is how she got to Blue the first time, when she " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bit\nSinew.\n\nSinew was conceived on the _Whorl_, so he could have been no more \nthan 2 or\n3 years old when bitten; he was still small enough to be sleeping \nin a\nbasket made by Nettle. In the scene where Silkhorn and Jahlee made " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that\nimpromptu astral visit to Green, the visit where she got left \nbehind in that\nroom on the high cliff, she told him about learning to fly. She \nsaid that it\nhad taken her \"years\" just to be able to fly up to the room (IGJ, \n61), and\neven after reaching it that she still had to learn more before \nattempting\nthe Crossing.\n\nIt's also clear from that scene that she already had a human \nspirit when she\nwas very young; that is what motivated her to want to make the \ncrossing.\nPresumably she was born with it. So, the question is: If Sinew was " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "attacked\nby Jahlee during the first 2 or 3 years of colonization, before \nshe was able\nto make the Crossing under her own power, how did she get to Blue?\n\nI can think of only one solution -- she came on a lander. Either \nshe boarded\none of those landers that returned to the _Whorl_ automatically \n(like\nAbanja's), then went from the _Whorl_ to Blue on the same or \nanother lander,\nor, she went directly from Green to Blue on a lander, like the \nslave ship\nfrom Pajarocu. Either way, what was Wolfe's point in having her go " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to Blue\nbefore she could fly properly?\n\nHas anyone a better answer?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe may have nodded. \n\nOtherwise, you have to get around that \"years\" comment (which I'd \nforgotten when I posted about this a few days ago). I guess it's \njust possible that \"years\" = \"~2 years\", which might give Jahlee \njust enough time, assuming that young inhumi reach maturity very \nquickly. \n\nDo we know how long it takes a inhuma to grow to a point where she \nmight be like young Jahlee, yearning to fly to Blue? Maybe it's not \nvery long at all. (And of course there's the problem of what \nexactly a \"year\" is, in Green terms.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c59e3e$9c040fc0$353ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-10T23:33:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508102359.j7ANx6WT002110@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thalassocrat quoted and wrote:\nEither way, what was Wolfe's point in having her go" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to Blue\nbefore she could fly properly?\n\nHas anyone a better answer?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe may have nodded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. But I have the feeling I'm missing something. Silkhorn even asked\nher, in so many words, if her first visit to that room had been made before\nher first trip to Blue. \"She did not answer.\" (60) There has to be more to\nit!\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050811074851.ABAA033C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-11T00:49:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c59e3e$9c040fc0$353ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:33:27 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nThalassocrat quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Either way, what was Wolfe's point in having her go" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "to Blue\nbefore she could fly properly?\n\nHas anyone a better answer?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe may have nodded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe. But I have the feeling I'm missing something. Silkhorn even " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "asked\nher, in so many words, if her first visit to that room had been \nmade before\nher first trip to Blue. \"She did not answer.\" (60) There has to be " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "more to\nit!\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the mystery of the tall figure with the bird-like gait & \nthe squat, dome-like building up the top have to be solved first. \n\nI continue to hope that the figure is a Neighbor-naut and the \n\"building\" is his spacecraft, his close-fitting cloak (or whatever \nthe description) is his spacesuit, and that this is the point from \nwhich Neighbors take inhumi to seed the Whorl. I posted a long time \nago some flimsy reasons for thinking this might be the case; \npartly, the figure seemed to me the most plausible candidate \nNeighbor for telling Silkhorn about the Whorl-seeding.\n\nAs I mentioned, another possibility for the Jahlee timeline is that \none of her parents was one of these Whorl-inhumi, returned by the \nNeighbors to Green (and presumably to this region of Green, which \nwould explain what the young Jahlee was doing there). If this \nreturn happened before the first human exodus from the Whorl, it \nwould give Jahlee plenty of time to grow & become a void-crosser.\n\nOne thing to note: I think it must be the case that the Neighbors \ntook primitve inhumi to the Whorl, let them drink human blood, \nbrought them back to Green, let them breed & then took some of the \nsentient offspring back to the Whorl. How else to explain Quetzal? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050811164354.63928.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-11T09:43:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050811074851.ABAA033C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOne thing to note: I think it must be the case that\nthe Neighbors \ntook primitve inhumi to the Whorl, let them drink\nhuman blood, \nbrought them back to Green, let them breed & then\ntook some of the \nsentient offspring back to the Whorl. How else to\nexplain Quetzal? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Quetzal could have been on the Whorl since birth\nand come from Urth (if Jahlee can come back from being\nburied for years then anything's possible) or he could\nbe the offspring of inhumi from Urth (or its system). \nIt's no more convoluted than the above explanation, in\nfact less so.\n\nDon\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508112124.j7BLOrNO006339@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-11T14:25:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050811164354.63928.qmail@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:43:54 -0700 don doggett \n wrote:\n--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One thing to note: I think it must be the case that\nthe Neighbors \ntook primitve inhumi to the Whorl, let them drink\nhuman blood, \nbrought them back to Green, let them breed & then\ntook some of the \nsentient offspring back to the Whorl. How else to\nexplain Quetzal? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Quetzal could have been on the Whorl since birth\nand come from Urth (if Jahlee can come back from being\nburied for years then anything's possible) or he could\nbe the offspring of inhumi from Urth (or its system). \nIt's no more convoluted than the above explanation, in\nfact less so.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, except that we know that the Neighbors did put inhumi on the \nWhorl (at least, Silkhorn said they did), while AFAIK there's no \nreason for thinking that there were any inhumi in Urth's system. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101c59ebd$17f88e20$483ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-11T14:39:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508112124.j7BLOrNO006339@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I mentioned, another possibility for the Jahlee timeline is that\none of her parents was one of these Whorl-inhumi, returned by the\nNeighbors to Green (and presumably to this region of Green, which\nwould explain what the young Jahlee was doing there). If this\nreturn happened before the first human exodus from the Whorl, it\nwould give Jahlee plenty of time to grow & become a void-crosser." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if the Neighbors were involved or not, but I have been\ninexcusably forgetful -- I had just read the passage the other day! Of\ncourse Jahlee traveled by lander -- she expressly said so during that astral\ntrip to Sinew's village. \"I was just a little girl when they put me on the\nlander.\" (IGJ, 369) She also again didn't answer the question about how long\nago it had been, but it was a time when there were fewer humans on Green. It\nisn't certain from the surrounding text whether she was coming or going on\nthe lander, or to or from where." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing to note: I think it must be the case that the Neighbors\ntook primitve inhumi to the Whorl, let them drink human blood,\nbrought them back to Green, let them breed & then took some of the\nsentient offspring back to the Whorl. How else to explain Quetzal?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that when the _Whorl_ first reached the Short Sun system, landers\nwere sent down to scout the planets. That could have been the point of\ncontamination, whether it involved the Neighbors or not. I think that's what\nSilkhorn was hinting at in his talk with Abanja. (ibid., 370-371)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier, you wrote:\nOtherwise, you have to get around that \"years\" comment (which I'd\nforgotten when I posted about this a few days ago). I guess it's\njust possible that \"years\" = \"~2 years\", which might give Jahlee\njust enough time, assuming that young inhumi reach maturity very\nquickly.\n\nDo we know how long it takes a inhuma to grow to a point where she\nmight be like young Jahlee, yearning to fly to Blue? Maybe it's not\nvery long at all. (And of course there's the problem of what\nexactly a \"year\" is, in Green terms.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From scattered comments in SS, it seems that about 23 years elapsed on Blue\nbetween the exodus and, say, Jahlee's death. The same time frame for Green\nseems to have been about 25 years, according to Abanja (365). The planets\nseem to be too close together for the differences in their solar orbits to\nbe very great. Certainly any difference in the amount of time between the\nexodus and Jahlee's attack on Sinew, say three years as measured by either\nplanet's calendar, is too small to be significant for our purposes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050812003421.B131933C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-11T17:34:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<002101c59ebd$17f88e20$483ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:38:36 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nI believe that when the _Whorl_ first reached the Short Sun \nsystem, landers\nwere sent down to scout the planets. That could have been the \npoint of\ncontamination, whether it involved the Neighbors or not. I think \nthat's what\nSilkhorn was hinting at in his talk with Abanja. (ibid., 370-371)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to be clear, Silkhorn does say later that the Neighbors took \ninhumi to the Whorl, and using them studied humans for a long time \n(RTTW 235-6).\n\nIn the passage you quote, he says that landers must have been sent \ndown from the Whorl before Auk's party left. But it seems clear to \nme that at this point he doesn't know about the Neighbors' \nresponsibility for the inhumi on the Whorl, and my guess is that he \n\nhere surmises (incorrectly) that landers are the only way inhumi \ncould have reached it. (Jahlee establishes in this passage that the \n\nWhorl is too distant for inhumi to reach unaided from Green.) Is \nthere any other evidence in the text for such pre-exodus lander \ntraffic, apart from this passage?\n\nI've always assumed that Jahlee's lander comment in the IGJ passage \n\nis just a lie, maintaining the fiction that she's human (Silkhorn \nhas just revealed that she had been on Green before; if she's a \nhuman, she must have left by lander, and so on). " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000f01c59f07$2f689e20$d53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-11T23:29:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050812003421.B131933C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thalassocrat quoted and wrote:\nI believe that when the _Whorl_ first reached the Short Sun\nsystem, landers\nwere sent down to scout the planets. That could have been the\npoint of\ncontamination, whether it involved the Neighbors or not. I think\nthat's what\nSilkhorn was hinting at in his talk with Abanja. (ibid., 370-371)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to be clear, Silkhorn does say later that the Neighbors took\ninhumi to the Whorl, and using them studied humans for a long time\n(RTTW 235-6)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the Neighbors took inhumi to the _Whorl_. But I don't think they\nstudied humans for a \"long time\". Just for the time (beginning\nthirty-something years before the exodus?) the _Whorl_ was in orbit around\nthe Short Sun. Vadsig asked, \"To greet us it was?\" Silkhorn answered, \"You\nmight put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good deal\nabout us -- and infect us with inhumi -- Before they ventured to greet even\na few of us.\" He goes on to say of the Neighbor's, \"the civilization they\nhad built had failed them\".\n\nThat's what I meant about the \"point of contamination\". I think that point\nwas reached when the _Whorl_ first reached the Short Sun system and sent\ndown exploratory landers. The Neighbors were effectively extinct on Green\n(as on Blue), therefore there were no sentient inhumi there then. The few\nNeighbors remaining on Green (as on Blue) were little more than ghostly\ncaretakers. Their technology, like their cities, was in ruins. Maybe they\nhad some magical (to humans) means of transporting themselves and other\ncargo from one place to another, but I don't recall any evidence of it. I'm\nsuggesting that they made use of the earliest landers to move inhumi (and\nperhaps themselves) between Green and the _Whorl_. That's how Quetzal got\nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the passage you quote, he says that landers must have been sent\ndown from the Whorl before Auk's party left. But it seems clear to\nme that at this point he doesn't know about the Neighbors'\nresponsibility for the inhumi on the Whorl, and my guess is that he\n\nhere surmises (incorrectly) that landers are the only way inhumi\ncould have reached it. (Jahlee establishes in this passage that the\n\nWhorl is too distant for inhumi to reach unaided from Green.) Is\nthere any other evidence in the text for such pre-exodus lander\ntraffic, apart from this passage?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Offhand, I don't know.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508121231.j7CCVPx6051337@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-12T05:31:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<000f01c59f07$2f689e20$d53ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:29:17 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nYes, the Neighbors took inhumi to the _Whorl_. But I don't think \nthey\nstudied humans for a \"long time\". Just for the time (beginning\nthirty-something years before the exodus?) the _Whorl_ was in \norbit around\nthe Short Sun. Vadsig asked, \"To greet us it was?\" Silkhorn \nanswered, \"You\nmight put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a \ngood deal\nabout us -- and infect us with inhumi -- Before they ventured to \ngreet even\na few of us.\" He goes on to say of the Neighbor's, \"the \ncivilization they\nhad built had failed them\".\n\nThat's what I meant about the \"point of contamination\". I think \nthat point\nwas reached when the _Whorl_ first reached the Short Sun system \nand sent\ndown exploratory landers. The Neighbors were effectively extinct \non Green\n(as on Blue), therefore there were no sentient inhumi there then. \nThe few\nNeighbors remaining on Green (as on Blue) were little more than \nghostly\ncaretakers. Their technology, like their cities, was in ruins. \nMaybe they\nhad some magical (to humans) means of transporting themselves and \nother\ncargo from one place to another, but I don't recall any evidence \nof it. I'm\nsuggesting that they made use of the earliest landers to move \ninhumi (and\nperhaps themselves) between Green and the _Whorl_. That's how \nQuetzal got\nthere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn - I was sure some explicit mention was made somewhere of the \nNeighbors having spacecraft, but now I can't find anything. I do \nhave the Neighbor testifying at Silkhorn's trial: \"I was one of \nthose who boarded your Whorl when it neared our sun.\" So Neighbors, \nand probably inhumi, went to the Whorl before it reached orbit.\n\nNow obviously that doesn't necessarily mean that he had his own \nspace-craft: scouting landers could have been sent out from the \nWhorl before it went into orbit - but is that very likely? Or the \nNeighbor could have astral-travelled there. But we don't know (do \nwe?) of any other occasion when anybody gets to astral travel to a \nplace they or a companion haven't visited previously. Perhaps the \nNeighbors can do it; I don't know.\n\nBut if they can't, when they went to their new home (the \"Neighbor \nWhorl\" or whatever it's called), they must have gone physically - \nin space-craft. \n\nAt the end of IGJ, Silkhorn says to some Neighbors: \"Will the \ninhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" One replies: \"Back to \nyour ship, you mean?\" Silkhorn says: \"that isn't possible ... There \nare very few landers in working order ...\" And the Neighbor \nresponds: \"Then they cannot drive you away as they did us.\"\n\nAgain, nothing definitive, but to me it suggests that the Neighbors \ndid indeed leave in spacecraft. Obviously, they can return in \nastral form, but the going was physical.\n\nNow as to the Neighbors transporting inhumi to the Whorl: all of \nthe above aside, the Neighbors might have some magic matter \ntransfer way of doing this, but there's nothing in the text to \nsuggest it. Any astral type of travelling would not have delivered \nblood-drinking inhumi, unless it was totally different from any of \nthe astral travelling in the text. So I get left with \ntransportation via space-craft, probably Neighborly, not human \nlanders, because it probably happened before the Whorl went into \norbit, and it seems unlikely that any kind of human scouting of the \nsystem would have happened that early.\n\nThe final issue is whether any of these putative Neighbor space-\ncraft might be present in the Short Sun system. I think the answer \nis probably yes. Silkhorn tells Vadsig in the relevant passage that \nthe Neighbors took inhumi with them as \"mirrors\". But they can only \nfunction as mirrors (I believe) if they are allowed to breed. As \nfar as we know, that can only happen on Green, and only when they \nare present on Green in their physical form. \n\nSo there must be some way of transporting them physically to Green, \nas part of a continuing process. Which leads me back to the bird-\ngaited figure and the squat dome on top of the cliff tower, the \nplace where apparently the Neighbors had their last permanent \npresence, and a natural candidate for a place to drop off blooded \ninhumi and collect their offspring. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c59fd2$c6346c00$7c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-12T23:46:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508121231.j7CCVPx6051337@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote:\nDamn - I was sure some explicit mention was made somewhere of the\nNeighbors having spacecraft, but now I can't find anything. I do\nhave the Neighbor testifying at Silkhorn's trial: \"I was one of\nthose who boarded your Whorl when it neared our sun.\" So Neighbors,\nand probably inhumi, went to the Whorl before it reached orbit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, you're right about the point of first contact between Neighbors and\nhumans having occurred shortly before the _Whorl_ reached orbit. And I do\nbelieve that that *was* the first ever contact between Neighbors and humans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now obviously that doesn't necessarily mean that he had his own\nspace-craft: scouting landers could have been sent out from the\nWhorl before it went into orbit - but is that very likely? Or the\nNeighbor could have astral-traveled there. But we don't know (do\nwe?) of any other occasion when anybody gets to astral travel to a\nplace they or a companion haven't visited previously. Perhaps the\nNeighbors can do it; I don't know." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that what the Neighbors do is astral travel as Silkhorn knows\nit. If it is, where are their sleeping bodies? If wherever they live is a\nphysical place (as opposed to some mystical \"higher plane\" of existence),\nsuch as another planet around another sun, then clearly they are able to\ntravel by some sort of \"magical\", non-technological means to Blue and Green.\nThe Neighbors had a lot more experience with astral travel than Silkhorn;\nperhaps they needn't have been to their destination previously. But that's\npure speculation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if they can't, when they went to their new home (the \"Neighbor\nWhorl\" or whatever it's called), they must have gone physically -\nin space-craft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. But even if that's true, it was a long time ago. One of the\nNeighbors said that they had to deal with their inhumi problem \"a thousand\nyears ago.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end of IGJ, Silkhorn says to some Neighbors: \"Will the\ninhumi really drive us away as they did you?\" One replies: \"Back to\nyour ship, you mean?\" Silkhorn says: \"that isn't possible ... There\nare very few landers in working order ...\" And the Neighbor\nresponds: \"Then they cannot drive you away as they did us.\"\n\nAgain, nothing definitive, but to me it suggests that the Neighbors\ndid indeed leave in spacecraft. Obviously, they can return in\nastral form, but the going was physical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the other Neighbor in that conversation said, \"You cannot go where we\nare.\" That throws a monkey wrench into the equation. If wherever the\nNeighbors lived had been reached by spacecraft, then it *could* be reached\nby spacecraft. What is there to prevent human spacecraft from going where\nNeighbor spacecraft have gone? Mankind had shown itself to be a master at\nspace travel, second to none. Even the tired old _Whorl_ could be made to\nvoyage again -- which is what it did.\n\nHow likely is it that an alien spacecraft could approach and dock with the\n_Whorl_ without Mainframe and the Crew knowing about it? Even if the\nNeighbors had FTL spaceships, how close would their hypothetical home planet\nhave to be for them to first detect the presence of the _Whorl_ then travel\nto the Short Sun system, land on Green, pick up some wild inhumi and then\ndock with the _Whorl_? Then they would have to take the inhumi back to Green\nto spawn, all the while without being detected. I don't think it happened.\n\nThe implication I draw from the Neighbor's above statement is that the\nNeighbors *do* live in some non-physical realm where humans literally (in\ntheir current form) cannot go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now as to the Neighbors transporting inhumi to the Whorl: all of\nthe above aside, the Neighbors might have some magic matter\ntransfer way of doing this, but there's nothing in the text to\nsuggest it. Any astral type of travelling would not have delivered\nblood-drinking inhumi, unless it was totally different from any of\nthe astral travelling in the text. So I get left with\ntransportation via space-craft, probably Neighborly, not human\nlanders, because it probably happened before the Whorl went into\norbit, and it seems unlikely that any kind of human scouting of the\nsystem would have happened that early." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that the Neighbor's initial exposure to humans was by their version\nof astral travel. Whenever the _Whorl_ first sent a lander to Green, the\nNeighbors used it to send back sentient inhumi, grown from the humans on the\nlander." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The final issue is whether any of these putative Neighbor space-\ncraft might be present in the Short Sun system. I think the answer\nis probably yes. Silkhorn tells Vadsig in the relevant passage that\nthe Neighbors took inhumi with them as \"mirrors\". But they can only\nfunction as mirrors (I believe) if they are allowed to breed. As\nfar as we know, that can only happen on Green, and only when they\nare present on Green in their physical form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, pure speculation, but the answer might be that wherever the Neighbors\nlive is the equivalent of wherever the inhumi are when, while astral\ntraveling, they are their \"true\", inner selves; truly human in the case of,\nsay, Jahlee, truly Neighborly in the cases of the Neighbors' inhumi. True\nmirrors, in a sense.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508131601.j7DG1o1Q050573@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-13T09:01:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001201c59fd2$c6346c00$7c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:46:36 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\n\nHorn thinks about how Quetzal might have come to the Whorl, in OBW \n(pp182-3): \"As with so many other riddles, it is easy to speculate \nbut impossible to know which speculation is correct - if any are.\" \nThat seems to sum up the situation pretty well :)\n\nAnyway, Horn gives three possibilities: the Whorl's orbit brings it \ninto conjunction with Green from time to time, allowing inhumi to \nfly there; landers left the Whorl \"much earlier\" than Auk's, \nunknown to the Crew, and perhaps even to Pas; inhumi built their \nown lander and sailed it to the Whorl. \n\nMulling over the first possibility, he tries to work out what the \nperiod of Whorl/Green conjunctions might be. His baseline is his \nsure knowledge that Quetzal was prolocutor for 33 years. \n\nNow, in COTLS, Quetzal tells Silk he has known about Pas' supposed \ndeath for \"thirty years, since shortly after his death, in fact\" \n(p130 in Epiphany). So presumably Quetzal was already prolocutor a \ncouple of years before Pas' death. \n\nHorn speculates that it would have taken Quetzal at least 15 years \nto work his way up the hierarchy & attain the prolocutorship. I \ndon't know how good that estimate is, but assume it's roughly \ncorrect. Then if Quetzal did arrive on the Whorl on a lander, the \nWhorl must have been in orbit for more than 15 years before Pas' \ndeath. \n\nDuring that time, he didn't trigger the \"Plan\" and order everybody \nout; why not? A sensible seculation might be that he was studying \nBlue & Green, sending down scouting parties etc etc, before making \nthe decision - presumably if the planers didn't check out he could \nset the Whorl on course for another star. This would fit well with \nthe Quetzal-on-lander speculation. \n\nBut then wouldn't the Crew be aware of the scouting? Why would Pas \nhide it from them? Silkhorn makes it clear in the Abanja passage in \nIGJ that he believes the Crew were not deliberately lying about \nAuk's lander being the first. And wouldn't Pas know then that Green \nwasn't a good destination, even if he didn't recognize the threat \nof the inhumi? But when the landers go, the passengers get not the \nslightest hint of what's down there - no maps, no nothing. If Pas \nhad been spending time studying the planets, it certainly doesn't \nshow. \n\nWhen he comes back to life, he orders everybody out almost \nimmediately. I don't think he was alive whe the Whorl entered \norbit. I think if he had been, he would have started chucking \npeople out right away. Most likely, his family killed him as the \nWhorl approached the Short Sun system, to stop him from doing this. \n\n\nBut if that's true, it puts Quetzal on the Whorl before it went \ninto orbit, perhaps at around the same time as the Neighbors first \n\"boarded\" it, as it neared the Short Sun. \n\nJust quickly on Neighborly astral travelling: it might be different \nfrom what Silkhorn does, but I don't know of any reason to suppose \nso. The Neighbors Silkhorn encounters seem generally to be present \nin astral form - eg his first encounter, in OBW. Their sleeping \nbodies are presumably on \"the Neighbor Whorl\". The Neighbor who \nnames it thus gazes towards the \"Western stars\" when he does so, \nwhich makes me think it is a \"real\" place, located amongst them. \n\nAnd on stealth Neighbor spacecraft: the Quetzal-on-lander \nhypothesis seems to require the Crew to be similarly ignorant of \nthe pre-Exodus lander traffic the hypothesis requires. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000c01c5a09b$6aafac40$cf3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-13T23:43:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508131601.j7DG1o1Q050573@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sure knowledge that Quetzal was prolocutor for 33 years.\n\nNow, in COTLS, Quetzal tells Silk he has known about Pas' supposed\ndeath for \"thirty years, since shortly after his death, in fact\"\n(p130 in Epiphany). So presumably Quetzal was already prolocutor a\ncouple of years before Pas' death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it just coincidence that Q's attainment of office more or less coincided\nwith the death of Pas? I doubt it. I'm not implying cause and effect, just\nnoting the correlation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn speculates that it would have taken Quetzal at least 15 years\nto work his way up the hierarchy & attain the prolocutorship. I\ndon't know how good that estimate is, but assume it's roughly\ncorrect. Then if Quetzal did arrive on the Whorl on a lander, the\nWhorl must have been in orbit for more than 15 years before Pas'\ndeath.\n\nDuring that time, he didn't trigger the \"Plan\" and order everybody\nout; why not? A sensible seculation might be that he was studying\nBlue & Green, sending down scouting parties etc etc, before making\nthe decision - presumably if the planers didn't check out he could\nset the Whorl on course for another star. This would fit well with\nthe Quetzal-on-lander speculation.\n\nBut then wouldn't the Crew be aware of the scouting? Why would Pas\nhide it from them? Silkhorn makes it clear in the Abanja passage in\nIGJ that he believes the Crew were not deliberately lying about\nAuk's lander being the first. And wouldn't Pas know then that Green\nwasn't a good destination, even if he didn't recognize the threat\nof the inhumi? But when the landers go, the passengers get not the\nslightest hint of what's down there - no maps, no nothing. If Pas\nhad been spending time studying the planets, it certainly doesn't\nshow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Silkhorn was also sure that landers *had* been sent out before Auk's.\nWho cut that big cable down at the Pole? When did it happen, and why? Was\nthat the reason for Mainframe's and the Crew's ignorance of the comings and\ngoings?\n\n[snip of stuff I can't refute] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just quickly on Neighborly astral travelling: it might be different\nfrom what Silkhorn does, but I don't know of any reason to suppose\nso. The Neighbors Silkhorn encounters seem generally to be present\nin astral form - eg his first encounter, in OBW. Their sleeping\nbodies are presumably on \"the Neighbor Whorl\". The Neighbor who\nnames it thus gazes towards the \"Western stars\" when he does so,\nwhich makes me think it is a \"real\" place, located amongst them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but . . . the way it's phrased, \"We found a way to leave and we left,\nseeking a new and a better home.\" \"Found a way\" doesn't sound to me like\nthey just boarded their spaceships and went elsewhere. There would have been\nnothing novel about that if they had had a high-tech civilization, which\nthey apparently once did, judging from the ruins on Green. I think there\nmust be something more to it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00e401c5a14b$b8d6c830$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-14T20:43:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<000c01c5a09b$6aafac40$cf3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I missed this start of this interesting thread, so I'll just stick my toe in\nas I see an opening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When he comes back to life, he orders everybody out almost\nimmediately. I don't think he was alive whe the Whorl entered\norbit. I think if he had been, he would have started chucking\npeople out right away. Most likely, his family killed him as the\nWhorl approached the Short Sun system, to stop him from doing this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Pas* didn't do it \"immediately\". Silk and Auk did. It seems it took awhile\nfor before Pas went to extremes to drive people out. And then it was because\nthe Whorl was clearly suffering from an overpopulation of Cargo (running out\nof water and such). Anyway if the prep work had already been done, it was\nnecessary to re-do it after Pas' resurrection. It would be understandable\nthat Pas' family waited for the last possible moment to rub him out rather\nthan as soon as they entered orbit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then wouldn't the Crew be aware of the scouting? Why would Pas\nhide it from them? Silkhorn makes it clear in the Abanja passage in\nIGJ that he believes the Crew were not deliberately lying about\nAuk's lander being the first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm becoming exasperatingly convinced that the answer is not discernable\nsimply from the text. I suppose I'm coming around to Dan'l's position that\nWolfe has created several unresolvable puzzels. But I think the answer is\nsomewhere in that IMO when Silk sees \"Pike's Ghost\", it is the Rajan in\nsoul-traveling through time. There are plenty of clues that the Rajan *has*\ntime-traveled. In the LS (Lake I think) Silk saw a ghostly form of Oreb fly\nfrom his window at a time that Oreb was unable to fly. In IGJ, the\ngrandmother tells a story from her childhood in which the Rajan and Oreb\nmake an appearance. And that description of Pike's ghost vanishing sure\nlooks more like *exactly* like soul travel to me.I realize this raises\nuncomfortable questions about why Silk thought it was Pike he saw." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And wouldn't Pas know then that Green\nwasn't a good destination, even if he didn't recognize the threat\nof the inhumi? But when the landers go, the passengers get not the\nslightest hint of what's down there - no maps, no nothing. If Pas\nhad been spending time studying the planets, it certainly doesn't\nshow.\nBut Silkhorn was also sure that landers *had* been sent out before Auk's.\nWho cut that big cable down at the Pole? When did it happen, and why? Was\nthat the reason for Mainframe's and the Crew's ignorance of the comings\nand\ngoings?\n\n[snip of stuff I can't refute] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just quickly on Neighborly astral travelling: it might be different\nfrom what Silkhorn does, but I don't know of any reason to suppose\nso. The Neighbors Silkhorn encounters seem generally to be present\nin astral form - eg his first encounter, in OBW. Their sleeping\nbodies are presumably on \"the Neighbor Whorl\". The Neighbor who\nnames it thus gazes towards the \"Western stars\" when he does so,\nwhich makes me think it is a \"real\" place, located amongst them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but . . . the way it's phrased, \"We found a way to leave and we left,\nseeking a new and a better home.\" \"Found a way\" doesn't sound to me like\nthey just boarded their spaceships and went elsewhere. There would have\nbeen\nnothing novel about that if they had had a high-tech civilization, which\nthey apparently once did, judging from the ruins on Green. I think there\nmust be something more to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Returning to the scene of the \"bird-legged man\" the Rajan IIRC the way the\nscene is written implies that the rock was always structure and the man was\nalways a tree(?), he just didn't notice it before (like looking at those ink\nblots that are actually pictures of Jesus or George Washington). That\nsuggests to me that the Neighbors are hiding in plain sight. Their \"bodies\"\nare the trees. All the associations between the inhumi and the lianas is\nbecause that is the form they took to feed on the Neighbors. The \"war\" they\ndescribe was a very slow moving one. How does such a civilization create\naltars, glass domes, and The Mother? I'm not certain. But then the Rajan\ncould form whatever he wanted out of thin air so who knows? How did they\n\"find a way to leave\"? I don't know exactly but I think it has to do with\nthe arrival of the Whorl. The Rajan cannot go anywhere that one of his\nfellow travelers has not been. Presumably, neither could the Neighbors. So\nwhen they had access to the colonists, they could get to the Whorl and even\nto Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it just coincidence that Q's attainment of office more or less coincided\nwith the death of Pas? I doubt it. I'm not implying cause and effect, just\nnoting the correlation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "!!\nI don't think it is coincidental at all, and I think it is suggestive of who\nQuetzal's mother fed on, but then I say the same about his Tussah's death\nand Pas' death.\nOh, nevermind. It's like Silk said. No one will believe it.\n;-)\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508150536.j7F5a0Jt058672@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-14T22:36:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<00e401c5a14b$b8d6c830$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:42:55 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nBut Silkhorn was also sure that landers *had* been sent out before " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Auk's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe: in this conversation with Abanja, Silkhorn is still thinking \nin the context of Horn's three hypotheses from OBW. He knows enough \nabout the inhumi now to dismiss the hypothesis that they built a \nlander for themselves. Jahlee has just confirmed that the Whorl is \ntoo far from Green for inhumi to fly there. So by elimination he's \nleft with the pre-Exodus lander hypothesis. It could be a \nconclusion he's come to *right now*. But this is before he \ndiscovers that the Neighbors were responsible; he's missing a \nhypothesis.\n\nSeems consistent, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who cut that big cable down at the Pole? When did it happen, and \nwhy? Was\nthat the reason for Mainframe's and the Crew's ignorance of the \ncomings and\ngoings?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent question! Isn't it the cable running from \nMainframe/bridge back to the drive? In other words, a very major \ntrunk. Pure speculation: Pas did it as he was being killed by his \nfamily, to prevent them from making the Whorl leave the SS system \n(or divert from it, if he's killed before insertion). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but . . . the way it's phrased, \"We found a way to leave and \nwe left,\nseeking a new and a better home.\" \"Found a way\" doesn't sound to \nme like\nthey just boarded their spaceships and went elsewhere. There would " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have been\nnothing novel about that if they had had a high-tech civilization, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "which\nthey apparently once did, judging from the ruins on Green. I think " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there\nmust be something more to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More speculation: it could just be that the Neighbors discovered \n(physical) FTL travel, something not available to the humans in the \nSS system. \n\nActually, there's at least one big hole in the Neighbor-naut \ntheory: if Neighbors have spacecraft in the SS system, why don't \nSilkhorn & party just beg a lift to the Whorl with them, at the end \nof RTTW? I guess there might be just one, which is travelling \nbetween the Neighbor Whorl & Green on a long journey at this point -\n but it all starts to look a little too thin for comfort :)\n\nOn the other hand, it's a consideration which also tends to rule \nout any magic matter-transfer ability for the Neighbors.\n\nOK, so next unanswerable question: where do Talus-brains come from? \nIn the long Talus factory scene in LS, we get a discussion of \ndifferent head designs etc etc but nothing about this, which would \nseem to be the most crucial part of making a Talus. A guess: \nthey're swiped from the stores which chems have access to for \nmaking chem babies, or more disturbingly, extracted from chem \nfoetuses. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508150625.j7F6PueL060515@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-14T23:25:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508150536.j7F5a0Jt058672@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:45:04 -0700 James Wynn \n wrote:\nI missed this start of this interesting thread, so I'll just stick " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "my toe in\nas I see an opening." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When he comes back to life, he orders everybody out almost\nimmediately. I don't think he was alive whe the Whorl entered\norbit. I think if he had been, he would have started chucking\npeople out right away. Most likely, his family killed him as the\nWhorl approached the Short Sun system, to stop him from doing \nthis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Pas* didn't do it \"immediately\". Silk and Auk did. It seems it \ntook awhile\nfor before Pas went to extremes to drive people out. And then it \nwas because\nthe Whorl was clearly suffering from an overpopulation of Cargo \n(running out\nof water and such). Anyway if the prep work had already been done, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it was\nnecessary to re-do it after Pas' resurrection. It would be \nunderstandable\nthat Pas' family waited for the last possible moment to rub him \nout rather\nthan as soon as they entered orbit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was surely Pas doing the shoving, from the start. Tartaros \nreveals to Auk that unless they get at least one lander away, Pas \nis going to start kicking butt.\n\nI'm not sure that it makes more sense for Echidna et al to wait \nuntil \"the last minute\" before offing Pas. In other posts in this \nthread, I've given reasons why I think it makes sense to assume \nthat it happened before. Taking that one step further, maybe the \nWhorl has just entered orbit as LS begins. It could explain why the \nrenewed theomachy begins at just this point; Pas has bided his time \nwaiting for the moment when his Plan can go into effect. \n\nMaybe something like this: About 45-50 years out from the SS \nsystem, Pas commences some kind of early insertion manouevre \n(perhaps starting to decelerate). Until then, he hasn't given his \nfamily any specifics on the destination; now they realize the \njourney is coming to an end, and begin to plot. After 15 or so \nyears, they are ready to pounce. They best Pas, but before he \nsuccumbs he cuts the main control cable, so they won't be able to \ndivert the Whorl - whatever he has done before this is enough for a \nsuccessful insertion. Thinking Pas truly dead, Echidna et al don't \nreally mind the Whorl heading for orbit; they just want everybody \nto stay on it & continue to worship them.\n\nNeighbors notice the approach of the Whorl at the beginning of its \ninsertion manouevres. Somehow or other they board it & do their \ninhumi thing. (The rough coincidence in the timing of Pas' death \nand Quetzal's elevation is explained by the timing of the insertion \nmanouevre, the various parties' responses to it, and the time for \nPas' brood to perfect their plot & Quetzal to work his way up the \nhierarchy.)\n\nIn the not-very-plausible event that the Whorl's landers can travel \nbetween it and Green while it's traveling at relativistic speeds, \nperhaps the Neighbors enter the Whorl in astral form and induce \nhumans to go in landers, returning human-charged inhumi to the \nWhorl. They use their Neighborish mojo to hide this activity from \nPas and crew. \n\nIn the scenario in which they have their own FTL spacecraft, which \ncan plausibly renedezvous & dock with the decelerating Whorl, they \nuse this same mojo to hide their own comings & goings with \nprimitive & sentient inhumi. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001801c5a22b$babeff60$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-15T23:28:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508150625.j7F6PueL060515@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I want to get back to my original point in this thread. I wrote:\nSo, the question is: If Sinew was attacked by Jahlee during the first 2 or\n3 years of colonization, before she was able to make the Crossing under her\nown power, how did she get to Blue?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still think the answer is that she traveled on a lander. But, on\nreflection, that 2-3 year window of opportunity has to be even smaller. If\nJahlee was in fact imprinted with the spirit of Chenille, then one of her\nparents would first have to have fed on Chenille. Then Jahlee's mother would\nhave to go through the breeding cycle on Green to produce a sentient Jahlee.\nThat takes some amount of time. Then Jahlee had to mature enough to be able\nto fly up to that room on the cliff, an amount of time she said was \"years\".\nAnd she still wasn't experienced enough to make the Crossing at that point.\n\nSomething's wrong. There isn't enough time. But it makes it pretty clear\nthat she didn't get to Blue unaided.\n\nThe problem is compounded by her own breeding cycle. After feeding on Sinew\nshe had to get back to Green to give birth to Krait. How did she get back?\nDid she learn to fly well enough to make the Return Crossing while on Blue?\nIf so, did she learn before or after she attacked Sinew? How long after\nfeeding on a particular human's blood is the potential for imprinting that\nperson's spirit on any offspring viable? In other words, if Jahlee had fed\non another human after she fed on Sinew, would Krait have been somebody\nelse?\n\nIt matters because it affects how much time Jahlee could have spent on Blue\nbefore she had to get back to Green to become Krait's mother. I don't see\nher coming to Blue on a lander, then learning how to fly properly before\nattacking Sinew. I think she must have traveled both ways by lander.\n\nThe question then becomes, Did she board a lander to come to Blue, at a time\nwhen she knew she was incapable of flying between planets, for her own\nreasons? Or did someone(s) *put* her aboard a lander, presumably on Green,\nfor reasons unknown?\n\nI don't think Jahlee was just 'talking human' when she told Abanja, \"I was\njust a little girl when they put me on the lander.\" And if the idea of a\nlander going from Green to Blue, as Jahlee implied, was a surprise to\nAbanja, she failed to show it.\n\nI'm still missing something here.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508160759.j7G7xlMf060625@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-16T00:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001801c5a22b$babeff60$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:28:26 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nI want to get back to my original point in this thread. I wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So, the question is: If Sinew was attacked by Jahlee during the \nfirst 2 or\n3 years of colonization, before she was able to make the Crossing \nunder her\nown power, how did she get to Blue?<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still think the answer is that she traveled on a lander. But, on\nreflection, that 2-3 year window of opportunity has to be even \nsmaller. If\nJahlee was in fact imprinted with the spirit of Chenille, then one " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of her\nparents would first have to have fed on Chenille. Then Jahlee's \nmother would\nhave to go through the breeding cycle on Green to produce a \nsentient Jahlee.\nThat takes some amount of time. Then Jahlee had to mature enough \nto be able\nto fly up to that room on the cliff, an amount of time she said \nwas \"years\".\nAnd she still wasn't experienced enough to make the Crossing at \nthat point.\n\nSomething's wrong. There isn't enough time. But it makes it pretty " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "clear\nthat she didn't get to Blue unaided.\n\nThe problem is compounded by her own breeding cycle. After feeding " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on Sinew\nshe had to get back to Green to give birth to Krait. How did she \nget back?\nDid she learn to fly well enough to make the Return Crossing while " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on Blue?\nIf so, did she learn before or after she attacked Sinew? How long \nafter\nfeeding on a particular human's blood is the potential for \nimprinting that\nperson's spirit on any offspring viable? In other words, if Jahlee " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "had fed\non another human after she fed on Sinew, would Krait have been \nsomebody\nelse?\n\nIt matters because it affects how much time Jahlee could have \nspent on Blue\nbefore she had to get back to Green to become Krait's mother. I \ndon't see\nher coming to Blue on a lander, then learning how to fly properly \nbefore\nattacking Sinew. I think she must have traveled both ways by \nlander.\n\nThe question then becomes, Did she board a lander to come to Blue, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "at a time\nwhen she knew she was incapable of flying between planets, for her " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "own\nreasons? Or did someone(s) *put* her aboard a lander, presumably \non Green,\nfor reasons unknown?\n\nI don't think Jahlee was just 'talking human' when she told \nAbanja, \"I was\njust a little girl when they put me on the lander.\" And if the \nidea of a\nlander going from Green to Blue, as Jahlee implied, was a surprise " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to\nAbanja, she failed to show it.\n\nI'm still missing something here.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An atempt at a timeline. Don't have the books with me so this is \nall from memory & so no doubt wrong in places:\n\n1. Green/Blue conjunctions happen every 6 Blue years (see Horn's \nQuetzal speculations in OBW). I think this means that 7 Green years \n= 6 Blue years. Green is hotter, therefore probably closer to the \nsun, therefore has a shorter year. But the difference doesn't seem \nto be very great, and this ratio seems to fit with eg Abanja's \"25 \n[Green] years\".\n\n2. As OBW begins the next conjunction is 2 [?] years off - see Horn \nfamily discussion about guns etc after Marrow et al depart. \n\n3. So setting year 0 = Horn's arrival on Blue, OBW starts in Blue \nyear 20. So conjunctions should happen in years 4, 10, 16 & 22. \n\n4. Inhumi cross from Blue to Green at conjunction. Now I don't \nrecall anything explicitly saying it was conjunction-time when \nJahlee attacked Sinew, but assume so for testing: ie, Blue year 4. \n\n5. It probably doesn't takle more than a few days for inhumi to \nmake the crossing. Disregarding her age for the moment, at a pinch \nJahlee could have left Green, somehow or other stumbled across \nHorn's family & made the return to give birth to Sinew, all in Blue \nyear 4.\n\n6. Four Blue years is around 5 Green years. If inhumi spawn and \nmature very quickly (like frogs?), this may give just enough time \nfor Jahlee's parent to take the blood of one of Auk's party on \ngreen, and for Jahlee to spend \"years\" getting strong enough to \nmake the crossing. Is there anything in the story Fava tells at the \nbeginning of IGJ which might give more of a clue about how long it \ntakes inhumi to mature?\n\n7. There's perhaps a little more time if Jahlee's parent/s was/were \nactually amongst Auk's party, ready to spawn upon landing. I don't \nthink we ever get to hear very much about most of Auk's companions; \nI wonder if there's any hints of inhuminity in what we do hear?\n\n8. But on the other hand, there's an added time constraint not \ndiscussed so far. Jahlee as a child has heard about crossing to \nBlue from others, who presumably must have made the return trip. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508161301.j7GD1OFb098944@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-16T06:01:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<200508160759.j7G7xlMf060625@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:59:42 -0700 I wrote:\n4. Inhumi cross from Blue to Green at conjunction. Now I don't \nrecall anything explicitly saying it was conjunction-time when \nJahlee attacked Sinew, but assume so for testing: ie, Blue year 4. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it looks like that's where this doesn't work. When Krait \nis dying on Green, and tells Horn the Big Secret, Horn says he \nunderstands what had happened \"almost twenty years ago\" (IGJ p82). \nThose have to be Blue years, I think. This scene almost certainly \ntakes place in about the 21st (or at most, 22nd) year since Horn \nlanded. Blue year 2 looks like the latest for Jahlee's attack; \n\"almost twenty\" has to imply \"more than 19\", IMO.\n\nAs added support for an early date: Silkhorn's vision of the \nattack, near the beginning of RTTW, displays none of the stormy \nweather associated with conjunction; and other comments make it \nalmost certain that they are coming up to just their second winter \non Blue. \n\nIt looks like Jahlee is their on Lizard before conjunction, and in \nany case at much too young an age to have flown there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Four Blue years is around 5 Green years. If inhumi spawn and \nmature very quickly (like frogs?), this may give just enough time \nfor Jahlee's parent to take the blood of one of Auk's party on \ngreen, and for Jahlee to spend \"years\" getting strong enough to \nmake the crossing. Is there anything in the story Fava tells at \nthe \nbeginning of IGJ which might give more of a clue about how long it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "takes inhumi to mature?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reading Fava's story, I get the impression that inhumi do mature \nquickly, in the sense that an inhuma could mimic a \"little girl\" \nnot long after birth. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002e01c5a2cb$e4ed39a0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-16T18:33:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001801c5a22b$babeff60$753ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still think the answer is that she traveled on a lander. But, on\nreflection, that 2-3 year window of opportunity has to be even smaller. If\nJahlee was in fact imprinted with the spirit of Chenille, then one of her\nparents would first have to have fed on Chenille. Then Jahlee's mother\nwould\nhave to go through the breeding cycle on Green to produce a sentient\nJahlee.\nThat takes some amount of time. Then Jahlee had to mature enough to be able\nto fly up to that room on the cliff, an amount of time she said was\n\"years\".\nAnd she still wasn't experienced enough to make the Crossing at that point.\nSomething's wrong. There isn't enough time. But it makes it pretty clear\nthat she didn't get to Blue unaided....I'm still missing something here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the problem with the whole timeline for SS. Sinew's kids seem too old\n(*maybe* they could *just* fit in the timeline, but I don't think so). At\nthe end of RTTW, Hoof says his dad has been gone 3 years, while Hide earlier\nsaid it was 2. And, although, I can't remember exactly where it is, I *do*\nrecall something that made me think Sinew was born more than 9 months after\nthe landing.\n\nHowever, in this case, if one assumes that Inhumi require only a year to\nmature (like rats), then it is not impossible for Jahlee to board a lander\nand fly to Blue in plenty of time to feed on Sinew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is compounded by her own breeding cycle. After feeding on Sinew\nshe had to get back to Green to give birth to Krait. How did she get back?\nDid she learn to fly well enough to make the Return Crossing while on Blue?\n...I think she must have traveled both ways by lander." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are right. Since it took years for her to learn to fly to the\ntop of the cliff, then she could not have flown to Blue on her own the first\ntime. Anyway, she wouldn't have needed the lander if she had (and I agree\nshe boarded a lander posing as a little girl). Soooo she had to take a\nlander back to Green where she would then learn to fly for her journey back\nto Blue (with plenty of time, no?).\n\nTaking a lander both ways cuts out any need for the wait for Green's close\napproach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, did she learn before or after she attacked Sinew? How long after\nfeeding on a particular human's blood is the potential for imprinting that\nperson's spirit on any offspring viable? In other words, if Jahlee had fed\non another human after she fed on Sinew, would Krait have been somebody\nelse?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an excellent question and I don't know the answer. Do inhuma make the\njourney when they are pregnant? Are they impregnated on Blue or when they\nreturn to Green? Or before leaving Green? The answer would vary depending on\nwhich is true.\n\nAnd I can't remember the explanaiton if there was one of why male inhumi\nmake the dangerous flight to Blue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or did someone(s) *put* her aboard a lander, presumably on Green,\nfor reasons unknown?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why *wouldn't* she board a lander to Blue if she wanted ensouled children\nbut could not fly there herself?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c5a2ef$0c998bc0$543ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-16T22:46:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<002e01c5a2cb$e4ed39a0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew, who does his homework , wrote:\nIt looks like Jahlee is their on Lizard before conjunction, and in\nany case at much too young an age to have flown there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reading Fava's story, I get the impression that inhumi do mature\nquickly, in the sense that an inhuma could mimic a \"little girl\"\nnot long after birth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nHowever, in this case, if one assumes that Inhumi require only a year to\nmature (like rats), then it is not impossible for Jahlee to board a lander\nand fly to Blue in plenty of time to feed on Sinew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are right. Since it took years for her to learn to fly to the\ntop of the cliff, then she could not have flown to Blue on her own the\nfirst\ntime. Anyway, she wouldn't have needed the lander if she had (and I agree\nshe boarded a lander posing as a little girl). Soooo she had to take a\nlander back to Green where she would then learn to fly for her journey back\nto Blue (with plenty of time, no?).\n\nTaking a lander both ways cuts out any need for the wait for Green's close\napproach." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, well, we three seem to be in agreement that Jahlee didn't get to Blue\nunaided when she was very young. Do you also agree, Andrew, that she\ntraveled by lander between Green and Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew also wrote:\n8. But on the other hand, there's an added time constraint not\ndiscussed so far. Jahlee as a child has heard about crossing to\nBlue from others, who presumably must have made the return trip." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that's a problem. Not for Jahlee's personal timeline, but in general.\nLanders can't account for the Crossing stories she heard. Assuming Wolfe\njust didn't make a mistake, that would require a pool of sentient inhumi in\nplace on Green *before* Auk's lander arrived, inhumi who had made the trip\nduring a conjunction prior to the exodus. Who might those sentient inhumi\nhave fed on? Worse, there would have to have been people on Blue for them to\nfeed on, otherwise they would have been making a very dangerous trip for no\nreason.\n\nI know of no textual evidence or justification for believing there were any\nhumans on Blue before Horn's lander put down. Something stinks.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004d01c5a321$f311b780$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-17T04:49:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5a2ef$0c998bc0$543ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that's a problem. Not for Jahlee's personal timeline, but in general.\nLanders can't account for the Crossing stories she heard. Assuming Wolfe\njust didn't make a mistake, that would require a pool of sentient inhumi in\nplace on Green *before* Auk's lander arrived, inhumi who had made the trip\nduring a conjunction prior to the exodus.\nWho might those sentient inhumi\nhave fed on? Worse, there would have to have been people on Blue for them\nto\nfeed on, otherwise they would have been making a very dangerous trip for no\nreason.\nI know of no textual evidence or justification for believing there were any\nhumans on Blue before Horn's lander put down. Something stinks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since Quetzal was on the lander, we know there were likely sentient inhumi\non Green. Wolfe has *said* Quetzal was not the only inhumi on the Whorl. His\nexistence shows that the inhumi had on the Whorl for at least forty years\nand would be well ensconced among the Cargo. In fact, they probably brought\na few with them both to Blue and to Green (perhaps even on Auk's lander).\nSooo...it is reasonable to presume that the sentient inhumi on Green would\nhave heard about landers arriving at Blue.\n\nI think I'm missing an important facet of your question.\n\nWhy the heck did the Neighbors use inhumi to \"study\" humans anyway? They\nwould permit them to study human souls. But for what purpose? What useful\nknowledge did they gain from such experiments?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050817142430.568AA33C5A@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-17T07:24:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<004d01c5a321$f311b780$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you also agree, Andrew, that \nshe\ntraveled by lander between Green and Blue?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe! A difficulty is that in Silkhorn's vision of her attacking \ninfant Sinew, she seems more like a starving adult than a \"little \ngirl\". RTTW p27: \"The inhuma came, a bent and haggard figure that \nwas not a woman ... She recalled Jahlee ... a ragged, painfully \nthin figure with famished eyes ...\" It's possible I guess that \nJahlee at the age of less than two (?) could look like that, but \n.... \n\nThe description makes it seem like she's been hungry for a *long* \ntime, and really it reminds me of the adult Jahlee, just after \nshe's been disinterred in Gaon. \n\nAnyway, I need to mull over this some more. \n\nPart of the problem is that Jahlee has every reason to hide or lie \nabout things which happened around the time of her attack on Sinew. \nshe surely doesn't want Silkhorn to guess the truth (he has, by the \nstart of RTTW, but she doesn't know it)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050818030632.B6CC933C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-17T20:06:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050817142430.568AA33C5A@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I need to mull over this some more. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mulling outcomes:\n\nSome of the Jahlee problems go away if you can push her birth back \nto pre-Exodus times. That's easy enough, by itself. I continue to \nbelieve that the Neighbors must have been using Green as the \nspawning ground for the inhumi they placed on the Whorl. If Jahlee \nis a result of this program, she could have been born many years \npre-Exodus, spent years learning to fly, crossed to Blue at a pre-\nExodus conjunction, eventually stumbled on Horn's family, and flown \nback to Green, perhaps invigorated by Sinew's blood.\n\nObjections:\n\nWhy would she make a pre-Exodus Crossing, without the prospect of \nhuman prey? A straightforward reading of her comments in the cliff \ntower scene is that inhumi aspire to fly to Blue so that they can \nhunt humans, and give birth to sentient children when they return.\n\nBut it is possible the aspiration to make the Crossing isn't simply \na matter of wanting to go where there is less competition for human \nblood. \"That little scratch of fire, and you're gone forever. I \nwanted to try just the same. We all do ... It's something we get \nfrom you, a need to become more & more like you, until we're as \nhuman as we can possibly be.\" \n\nWhy would going to Blue to prey on humans meet a need to become \nmore human-like? Why not prey on humans on green, if preying on \nhumans is the point? \n\nAre inhumi really ready to give birth at the age of two or three? \nOf course it's possible - we know very very little about them. But \nstill ... in the cliff tower scene, Jahlee makes it sound to me as \nif she has a lot of growing up to do before she will be ready. And \nif she is ready, and there are humans on Green at this point, then \nwhy not with blood from one of them? Perhaps there aren't very many \nhumans, and competition is fierce - but is it really *so* difficult \nto get access to a human on Green that the hugely risky alternative \nof a Crossing becomes attractive? \n\nI think that the Crossing may be more of a rite of passage; \nsomething a sentient inhuma might aspire to even without the lure \nof human blood as a reward. And when she says she was thinking \nabout flying up to the top of the tower before she had decided to \nhunt Blue, we have to remember that of course inhumi do not prey \nonly on humans. If competition is such a big problem, would it not \nalso apply to other kinds of prey - so that Blue becomes an \nattractive hunting ground, with or without humans?\n\nThe final difficulty with this piece & my theory is bound up in her \ncomment that she had day-dreams of returning to the tower room \nafter making the Return Crossing, to spend time there thinking \nabout herself and \"what she had done for her children\". Why should \na Crossing & return do anything in particular for her children, if \nthere is no human blood involved? \n\nDunno! I can speculate that it may have something to do with how \nNeighbors select sentient inhumi for placing on the Whorl - the \n\"most human\" and the strongest, who have made the Crossing & \nReturn. In the absence of humans elsewhere, being slected would be \nthe only way of ensuring sentient children. But Jahlee disclaims \nany knowledge about how Quetzal got to the Whorl. She could be \nlying, for reasons which can be invented upon request :) \n\nJahlee's comments about being just a little girl when she was \"put \non the lander\" on Green: I don't mind sticking with my original \nreading, that she's just pretending here. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c5a3b3$5d172ac0$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-17T22:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050818030632.B6CC933C58@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nNow that's a problem. Not for Jahlee's personal timeline, but in general.\nLanders can't account for the Crossing stories she heard. Assuming Wolfe\njust didn't make a mistake, that would require a pool of sentient inhumi\nin\nplace on Green *before* Auk's lander arrived, inhumi who had made the trip\nduring a conjunction prior to the exodus.\nWho might those sentient inhumi\nhave fed on? Worse, there would have to have been people on Blue for them\nto\nfeed on, otherwise they would have been making a very dangerous trip for\nno\nreason." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nSince Quetzal was on the lander, we know there were likely sentient inhumi\non Green. Wolfe has *said* Quetzal was not the only inhumi on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "existence shows that the inhumi had on the Whorl for at least forty years\nand would be well ensconced among the Cargo. In fact, they probably brought\na few with them both to Blue and to Green (perhaps even on Auk's lander).\nSooo...it is reasonable to presume that the sentient inhumi on Green would\nhave heard about landers arriving at Blue.\n\nI think I'm missing an important facet of your question." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I think I jumped to an unwarranted conclusion. Horn's lander(s) left the\n_Whorl_ just days after Auk's. If Andrew is anywhere near right about a\nconjunction in or about Blue year 2, then I suppose it's possible that\nsentient inhumi (fed on Auk's party) could have made the trip to and from\nBlue with sufficient time left over for a young Jahlee to have heard them\ntalking about it. It just makes that window of opportunity for Jahlee to\nfeed on Sinew smaller and smaller." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why the heck did the Neighbors use inhumi to \"study\" humans anyway? They\nwould permit them to study human souls. But for what purpose? What useful\nknowledge did they gain from such experiments?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if nothing else, it gave them One-Hour-Photo snapshot versions of what\nhumans were really like. But that doesn't really answer the question. At\nleast I hope it doesn't. The Neighbors may have had a proprietary interest\nin strangers coming to their Blue-Green system, but who put them on a moral\nhigh-horse?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001b01c5a3b3$9252caa0$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-17T22:13:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001201c5a3b3$5d172ac0$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nDo you also agree, Andrew, that\nshe\ntraveled by lander between Green and Blue?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe! A difficulty is that in Silkhorn's vision of her attacking\ninfant Sinew, she seems more like a starving adult than a \"little\ngirl\". RTTW p27: \"The inhuma came, a bent and haggard figure that\nwas not a woman ... She recalled Jahlee ... a ragged, painfully\nthin figure with famished eyes ...\" It's possible I guess that\nJahlee at the age of less than two (?) could look like that, but\n....\n\nThe description makes it seem like she's been hungry for a *long*\ntime, and really it reminds me of the adult Jahlee, just after\nshe's been disinterred in Gaon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's just a dream and can't be taken at face value. Silkhorn also saw\nSinew wearing a ring in that dream that I don't think had really been there.\nSilkhorn's subconscious is at work in the dream, putting together the clues\nabout Jahlee, Sinew and Krait. At the time Sinew was attacked, Silk was back\nin Viron and Horn was out on the beach with Nettle. Neither component of\nSilkhorn had any real knowledge of the details of the attack. It's all\nimagination.\n\nOr are you suggesting something more . . . supernatural?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501c5a3bf$36468740$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-17T23:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c5a3b3$9252caa0$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nSome of the Jahlee problems go away if you can push her birth back\nto pre-Exodus times. That's easy enough, by itself. I continue to\nbelieve that the Neighbors must have been using Green as the\nspawning ground for the inhumi they placed on the Whorl. If Jahlee\nis a result of this program, she could have been born many years\npre-Exodus, spent years learning to fly, crossed to Blue at a pre-\nExodus conjunction, eventually stumbled on Horn's family, and flown\nback to Green, perhaps invigorated by Sinew's blood.\n\nObjections:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An objection I have is her presumed imprinting with Chenille's spirit. I\ndon't think her mother(?) fed on Chenille on the _Whorl_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would she make a pre-Exodus Crossing, without the prospect of\nhuman prey? A straightforward reading of her comments in the cliff\ntower scene is that inhumi aspire to fly to Blue so that they can\nhunt humans, and give birth to sentient children when they return.\n\nBut it is possible the aspiration to make the Crossing isn't simply\na matter of wanting to go where there is less competition for human\nblood. \"That little scratch of fire, and you're gone forever. I\nwanted to try just the same. We all do ... It's something we get\nfrom you, a need to become more & more like you, until we're as\nhuman as we can possibly be.\"\n\nWhy would going to Blue to prey on humans meet a need to become\nmore human-like?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nJahlee expressed similar sentiments on her death bed, a time when she had\nnothing to gain or lose by lying.\n\nI keep thinking of Tennyson's \"Ulysses\". I won't presume to quote it, but I\ncan see (or think I do) so much resonance with _Short Sun_. Recall it, or\nread it again is all I can ask. I first thought about it when you reminded\nme about the Neighbor looking toward \"the western stars\" when speaking of\nhis new home. Maybe I'm just getting to be an old fool, but that's my\nanswer. The poem also puts me in mind of Silk's return to the _Whorl_ at the\nend of RTTW.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050818120736.A176833C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-18T05:07:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<001501c5a3bf$36468740$513ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy objcts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An objection I have is her presumed imprinting with Chenille's \nspirit. I\ndon't think her mother(?) fed on Chenille on the _Whorl_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not wedded to Chenille as Jahlee's soul parent. In fact, J \nseems much more umm regal (in her demon-whore kind of way) than \nChenille. She also doesn't seem to have any recognition of \nChenille. But who knows ...\n\nRoy also said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jahlee expressed similar sentiments on her death bed, a time when \nshe had\nnothing to gain or lose by lying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry - don't understand this one???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I keep thinking of Tennyson's \"Ulysses\". I won't presume to quote \nit, but I\ncan see (or think I do) so much resonance with _Short Sun_. Recall " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it, or\nread it again is all I can ask. I first thought about it when you \nreminded\nme about the Neighbor looking toward \"the western stars\" when \nspeaking of\nhis new home. Maybe I'm just getting to be an old fool, but that's " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "my\nanswer. The poem also puts me in mind of Silk's return to the \n_Whorl_ at the\nend of RTTW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see what you mean with this, but the ending of RTTW is to me \nmore triumphant & less elegaic than Ulysses. I take away an image \nof Silkhorn sailing thru the galaxy spreading justice & good stuff, \nnot going to meet some heroic end. \n\nAlso: Silkhorn just isn't that old, surely. Mid/late forties? But \nhe's described as if he's some raddled ancient. I don't really \nunderstand this. I mean, presumably he's never even had to sit thru \nan all day strategy \"brain-storming\" session or go entertain \npotential clients who don't speak English or do any of the stuff \nwhich makes me feel raddled & ancient :) \n\nThe Neighbors, though, are definitely elegaic, and I don't hate the \nidea of them dwelling in some Neighborish Elysium beyond the world. \nIt's just not my preferred view of what's going on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001b01c5a472$318a4760$f93ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-18T20:58:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Travelin' Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "<20050818120736.A176833C23@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nJahlee expressed similar sentiments on her death bed, a time when\nshe had\nnothing to gain or lose by lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry - don't understand this one???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I was referring to your speculations about \"Why would going to Blue to\nprey on humans meet a need to become more human-like?\" And Jahlee's\n\"day-dreams of returning to the tower room after making the Return Crossing,\nto spend time there thinking about herself and 'what she had done for her\nchildren.'\"\n\nWhen dying she said, \"You think we don't care . . . .\" [. . .] \"You do, so\nwe must.\"\n\nSilkhorn thought she was speaking about her children, and went on to explain\nto Nettle, \"To pass among us, they imitate us -- even our emotions. Most of\ntheir spawn are eaten by fish while they are still very young.\" Jahlee then\ngave her version of the Secret, and almost the last thing she said was,\n\"Krait was my son, the only one who lived with the mind it took from yours.\"\n\nPresumably she was expressing, and feeling, the inherited human emotion of\ngrief for her lost children, particularly the loss of her only son. Nettle's\nfirstborn was also effectively lost to her, to say nothing of her husband.\nJahlee had attacked Nettle not because of a need to feed, but because of the\nhuman emotion of female jealousy. At the same time, she felt empathy with\nNettle, which is why she did what she could as she died to balance the score\nby revealing to Nettle the Secret, something she knew Silkhorn wouldn't do.\n\nIt was the last entry Silkhorn himself made in his book, which should give\nhis opinion here more weight than elsewhere.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }