{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4491", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4491, "subject": "Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2005-08-21T05:54:11+00:00", "last": "2005-08-24T17:36:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<200508211254.j7LCs9tr013937@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-21T05:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On p146 of IGJ, Fava talks about her supposed past in Grandecitta, \nthe city in the Whorl where Inclito was born. \"Back in Grandecitta, \nwhere I lived as a girl ...\" \n\nAlthough it's barely possible she came to the Whorl after humans \ncame to Blue, I think she was on the Whorl pre-Exodus, and that she \nprobably came to Blue on one of Grandecitta's landers. (She may \neven be the \"strega\" in Inclito's mother's second tale, but that's \npure speculation.) \n\nMaddeningly, Silkhorn never enquires how she came to the Whorl. \nFava \"dies\" not long after this, but enough of her is present at \nvarious times to answer the question, if it had been put to her.\n\nHer second story - the one which starts with an infant sentient \ninhuma hatching from an egg, and which Silkhorn \"gets inside\" - \nsuggests to me that she was born on Green. Horn's appearance in the \nstory was made up, so Silkhorn assures Mora, but Fava's description \nof infant inhuma life is probably from experience, given that Green \nis the only we place we know of where inhumi can be born. \n\nAlmost certainly, Fava was put on the Whorl by Neighbors as a young \ninhuma (if \"where I lived as a girl\" is true & has its natural \nmeaning), in pre-Exodus times. Since she was born sentient, that \nmeans at least one of her parents must have fed on the Whorl \n(assuming no pre-Exodus humans on Green etc). Which in turn tends \nto support the idea of Neighbors shuttling inhumi to & fro between \nGreen & Whorl.\n\nNow this of course indicates another possibility for Jahlee - the \nsame kind of beginnings & placement on the Whorl as Fava; descent \nto Blue, perhaps in Horn's own lander; and a subsequent Crossing to \nGreen, to give birth to Krait. I note that Krait has the appearance \nof a boy several years younger than Sinew in OBW, which would fit \nwith Jahlee Crossing to Green at the first conjunction after her \nattack on Sinew, in Blue year 4.\n\nA snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn tells Inclito's \nfamily, \"They have gone elsewhere - found a new home circling \nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that, it seems that \nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the Neighbors' removal there \na physical event." } ] }, { "message_id": "<009601c5a683$8240f970$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-21T12:07:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<200508211254.j7LCs9tr013937@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:54 AM\nSubject: (urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went\nOn p146 of IGJ, Fava talks about her supposed past in Grandecitta, \nthe city in the Whorl where Inclito was born. \"Back in Grandecitta, \nwhere I lived as a girl ...\" \n\nAlthough it's barely possible she came to the Whorl after humans \ncame to Blue, I think she was on the Whorl pre-Exodus, and that she \nprobably came to Blue on one of Grandecitta's landers. (She may \neven be the \"strega\" in Inclito's mother's second tale, but that's \npure speculation.) \n\nMaddeningly, Silkhorn never enquires how she came to the Whorl. \nFava \"dies\" not long after this, but enough of her is present at \nvarious times to answer the question, if it had been put to her.\n\nHer second story - the one which starts with an infant sentient \ninhuma hatching from an egg, and which Silkhorn \"gets inside\" - \nsuggests to me that she was born on Green. Horn's appearance in the \nstory was made up, so Silkhorn assures Mora, but Fava's description \nof infant inhuma life is probably from experience, given that Green \nis the only we place we know of where inhumi can be born. \n\nAlmost certainly, Fava was put on the Whorl by Neighbors as a young \ninhuma (if \"where I lived as a girl\" is true & has its natural \nmeaning), in pre-Exodus times. Since she was born sentient, that \nmeans at least one of her parents must have fed on the Whorl \n(assuming no pre-Exodus humans on Green etc). Which in turn tends \nto support the idea of Neighbors shuttling inhumi to & fro between \nGreen & Whorl.\n\nNow this of course indicates another possibility for Jahlee - the \nsame kind of beginnings & placement on the Whorl as Fava; descent \nto Blue, perhaps in Horn's own lander; and a subsequent Crossing to \nGreen, to give birth to Krait. I note that Krait has the appearance \nof a boy several years younger than Sinew in OBW, which would fit \nwith Jahlee Crossing to Green at the first conjunction after her \nattack on Sinew, in Blue year 4.\n\nA snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn tells Inclito's \nfamily, \"They have gone elsewhere - found a new home circling \nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that, it seems that \nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the Neighbors' removal there \na physical event.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<009b01c5a684$00a78680$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-21T12:10:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<200508211254.j7LCs9tr013937@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn tells Inclito's\nfamily, \"They have gone elsewhere - found a new home circling\nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that, it seems that\nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the Neighbors' removal there\na physical event." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? They could have gone elsewhere via astral travel leaving their bodies\nbehind.\n\nIn fact, if astral travel requires that someone in the party has been to the\ndestination before, it opens the possibility that the Whorl they've gone to\nis Urth....leaving their woody bodies growing comfortably on Blue and Green.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c5a733$d90e7060$a93dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-08-22T09:09:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<009b01c5a684$00a78680$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Almost certainly, Fava was put on the Whorl by Neighbors as a young\ninhuma (if \"where I lived as a girl\" is true & has its natural\nmeaning), in pre-Exodus times. Since she was born sentient, that\nmeans at least one of her parents must have fed on the Whorl\n(assuming no pre-Exodus humans on Green etc). Which in turn tends\nto support the idea of Neighbors shuttling inhumi to & fro between\nGreen & Whorl.\n\nNow this of course indicates another possibility for Jahlee - the\nsame kind of beginnings & placement on the Whorl as Fava; descent\nto Blue, perhaps in Horn's own lander; and a subsequent Crossing to\nGreen, to give birth to Krait. I note that Krait has the appearance\nof a boy several years younger than Sinew in OBW, which would fit\nwith Jahlee Crossing to Green at the first conjunction after her\nattack on Sinew, in Blue year 4." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It occurs to me that, *if* Jahlee was imprinted with Chenille's spirit (due\nto her mother having fed on Chenille on Green), and if Jahlee went to Blue\nto feed on Sinew when she was too young to fly unaided and then returned to\nGreen to give birth to Krait, then the difference in age between\ngenerations, at least in the case of Jahlee and Krait, can be only a few\nyears. At the beginning of OBW, Blue year 20, Jahlee could be no older than\nSinew, who would be 19 years old. I doubt that there is much of a\ncorrelation between human and inhumi ages, but Krait would have to be\nabout 16 or 17 in Blue year 20.\n\nIf, per your theory above, Fava had been born before the Exodus, she would\nprobably have to have been older than Jahlee and was *certainly* older than\nKrait, no matter what she said or how she looked in her chosen disguise of a\nhuman girl about the age of puberty.\n\nJahlee disguised herself as both a young woman and an old woman at that\nfarmhouse. She habitually went among humans disguised as a loose woman in\norder to entice men and get them alone to feed on them. Those were conscious\ndecisions. My point is that inhumi appearance cannot be a reliable guide to\nactual age. And they lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn tells Inclito's\nfamily, \"They have gone elsewhere - found a new home circling\nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that, it seems that\nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the Neighbors' removal there\na physical event." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm glad I waited as long as I did to respond; now it's *your* problem\ndealing with certain knotty theories. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508231249.j7NCnEUm092158@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T05:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<001601c5a733$d90e7060$a93dc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:09:10 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nMy point is that inhumi appearance cannot be a reliable \nguide to\nactual age. And they lie." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly true. But I think that Krait took the form of a \nyouth of the \"right\" age because he wanted very much to be Horn's \nson. \n\nActually, appearance != age seems to be true for inhumi even in \ntheir astral aspects. Astral Fava on Green is an old woman the \nfirst time, but sweet-little-Fava the second. In reality, I think \nthat both she and Fava are probably as old as Quetzal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm glad I waited as long as I did to respond; now it's *your* \nproblem\ndealing with certain knotty theories. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not going there :) I like parts of the Grand Unified Tree Theory as \nstories, but I don't think they're Wolfe's stories.\n\nI found where Neighborish spacecraft are mentioned: Silkhorn \ntalking with Hide in IGJ, p353. \"Eventually the Vanished People \nfound some means of crossing the abyss to Green. Perhaps they built \nlanders of their own - I believe they must have.\" But I suppose I \ncan't hang very much on Silkhorn's guess at something that happened \n1000+ years ago." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050824015432.10776.qmail@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T18:54:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<009b01c5a684$00a78680$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nA snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn\ntells Inclito's\nfamily, \"They have gone elsewhere - found a new\nhome circling\nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that,\nit seems that\nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the\nNeighbors' removal there\na physical event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why? They could have gone elsewhere via astral\ntravel leaving their bodies\nbehind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that there are four possibilities for\nthe neighbors travel.\n\n1. They physically left the planet in ships. Maybe\ntreeships, like the one in that SF poem Genesis.\n\n2. Astral travel. If that's really what Silkhorn is\ndoing, or as some have posited . . .\n\n3. Time travel. Perhaps they have gone to the future\n(or the past). That would explain their continued\npresence on Blue and account for the speculation that\nthey'd found a new short sun whorl. After all, a Blue\nof the future would be a new place.\n\n4. They haven't gone anywhere and are just spirits of\ntrees tied to their world.\n\nI'm just trying to set parameters for this discussion\nso it makes sense to me. Are there any I'm missing?\n\nDon\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c5a85f$d9676a80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-23T20:56:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<20050824015432.10776.qmail@web32403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A snippet on where the Neighbors went: Silkhorn\ntells Inclito's family, \"They have gone elsewhere -\nfound a new home circling\nanother short sun.\" (IGJ, p72) At least from that,\nit seems that\nthe \"Neighbor Whorl\" is a \"real\", and the\nNeighbors' removal there\na physical event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why? They could have gone elsewhere via astral\ntravel leaving their bodies\nbehind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that there are four possibilities for\nthe neighbors travel.\n\n1. They physically left the planet in ships. Maybe\ntreeships, like the one in that SF poem Genesis.\n\n2. Astral travel. If that's really what Silkhorn is\ndoing, or as some have posited . . .\n\n3. Time travel. Perhaps they have gone to the future\n(or the past). That would explain their continued\npresence on Blue and account for the speculation that\nthey'd found a new short sun whorl. After all, a Blue\nof the future would be a new place.\n\n4. They haven't gone anywhere and are just spirits of\ntrees tied to their world.\n\nI'm just trying to set parameters for this discussion\nso it makes sense to me. Are there any I'm missing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. That seems to encompass the possibilities. But (inexplicably to me) a\nlot readers are *hostile* to the idea that the Neighbors are *in any way*\nthe trees. It seemed so obvious to me that that was what they were when the\nRajan first clapped eyes on them in the forest. And the rest of the book\ncontinued to confirm it for me.\n\nSomeone once remarked that there was a Huorn (Horn?) feel about the trees in\nthe SS. At one point the Rajan describes them as \"sleepy\". Which makes me\nthink it most likely that they are away astral traveling.\n\nIncidentally, since I decided Horn = Typhon, *most* of the direct clues that\nUrth=Green were answered in that alternate interpretation. For the Neighbors\nto go to Urth does not imply ipso facto a unified star system theory.\nActually, the reference Andrew quoted above could just as well refer to the\nWhorl itself. It is \"a new home\" and it circles a different sun (the Long\nSun).\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200508240412.j7O4CoQ4026509@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T21:12:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5a85f$d9676a80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:54:32 -0700 don doggett \n wrote:\nIt seems to me that there are four possibilities for\nthe neighbors travel.\n\n1. They physically left the planet in ships. Maybe\ntreeships, like the one in that SF poem Genesis.\n\n2. Astral travel. If that's really what Silkhorn is\ndoing, or as some have posited . . .\n\n3. Time travel. Perhaps they have gone to the future\n(or the past). That would explain their continued\npresence on Blue and account for the speculation that\nthey'd found a new short sun whorl. After all, a Blue\nof the future would be a new place.\n\n4. They haven't gone anywhere and are just spirits of\ntrees tied to their world.\n\nI'm just trying to set parameters for this discussion\nso it makes sense to me. Are there any I'm missing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd include:\n\n5. Travel by BOTNS-style mirrors. One little thing you could use to \nsupport this: Silkhorn says that neighbors on at least one occasion \nreminded him of images multiplied between facing mirrors, left \nbehind when the actual source of the image had gone. (Somewhere \nnear start of IGJ, as part of the sewer story.) I don't believe it, \nbut it's possible.\n\nMy personal views: \n\n[1] is most consistent with everything else we are told. Neighbors \nwent to \"a [real] new whorl circling another short sun\" [in ships, \npossibly FTL,] and return to visit ancestral places on Blue via \nastral travelling. [2] leaves open the question of where the \nNeighbor bodies are & what they're doing when they're not astral \ntravelling. If you explain that using [4], you've moved into Grand \nUnified Tree Theory territory which I don't believe in, but YMMV. \nYou also have to explain away the Neighbors' lying when they claim \nthat they have, in fact, gone away. [3] is like the GUTT; I don't \nfind a shred of support for it in the text, though it could make a \ngood story.\n\n[5]is kind of attractive. It would also provide a mechanism for \nNeighbors getting real, physical inhumi onto the Whorl (as they did \n- this is as solid as anything ever is in Wolfe). But I don't know \nof any evidence for it, apart from the IGJ passage mentioned above, \nwhich doesn't have to imply it.\n\nWhatever theory you pick has to deal with inhumi-related things:\n\n- How did the Neighbors get inhumi onto the Whorl? If they don't \nhave their own ships, they must either have used undocumented pre-\nExodus human landers, or something like [5].\n\n- How do Neighbors breed new inhumi to sue as mirrors for \nthemselves? Either they have undocumented abilities to breed inhumi \non their new whorl, or they have to be able to ferry inhumi to & \nfrom Green. In the latter case, [1] and [5] again seem to be the \npossibilities." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c5a90c$fead5040$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-24T17:36:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fava in the Whorl, and where the Neighbors went", "in_reply_to": "<200508240412.j7O4CoQ4026509@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[1] is most consistent with everything else we are told. Neighbors\nwent to \"a [real] new whorl circling another short sun\" [in ships,\npossibly FTL,] and return to visit ancestral places on Blue via\nastral travelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, actually, the only ships that we are told the Neighbors ever built\nwere *landers* not starcrossers.\n\n [2] leaves open the question of where the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neighbor bodies are & what they're doing when they're not astral\ntravelling. If you explain that using [4], you've moved into Grand\nUnified Tree Theory territory which I don't believe in," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, then, I don't really understand then what the GUTT is. I thought\nyou were referring to a belief that the trees on Urth were the trees in\nBleen. If that's all it is then I don't know why [4] insists on that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You also have to explain away the Neighbors' lying when they claim\nthat they have, in fact, gone away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would that be a lie? \"Horn\" left his body on Green. Would it be lying to\nsay he left for Whorl? When the Rajan went to Green and Urth, did he go\naway?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[3] is like the GUTT; I don't\nfind a shred of support for it in the text, though it could make a\ngood story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(shrug) Okay. If someone tells me there is \"not a shred of support in the\ntext\" for time-travel, all the readily availabe proof-texting won't change\nanything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[5]is kind of attractive. It would also provide a mechanism for\nNeighbors getting real, physical inhumi onto the Whorl (as they did\n- this is as solid as anything ever is in Wolfe). But I don't know\nof any evidence for it, apart from the IGJ passage mentioned above,\nwhich doesn't have to imply it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would find it very attractive except that the Rajan was *convinced* they\nrequired landers to get to Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever theory you pick has to deal with inhumi-related things:\n\n- How did the Neighbors get inhumi onto the Whorl? If they don't\nhave their own ships, they must either have used undocumented pre-\nExodus human landers, or something like [5].\n\n- How do Neighbors breed new inhumi to sue as mirrors for\nthemselves? Either they have undocumented abilities to breed inhumi\non their new whorl, or they have to be able to ferry inhumi to &\nfrom Green. In the latter case, [1] and [5] again seem to be the\npossibilities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or their bodies are on Blue and Green with vines growing on them. That would\nhave the advantage of being documented over and over again.\n;-)\n\nJ" } ] } ] }