{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4492", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4492, "subject": "5HC (again)", "messages": 11, "voices": 8, "first": "2005-08-22T22:55:29+00:00", "last": "2005-08-25T07:46:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-22T22:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've noticed that \none of the more\npopular theories for Fifth Head of Cerberus is that the unnamed family is \nsurnamed \"Wolfe\".\nI can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with identity, and \nwith the only obvious\nclear clue to the surname the statement \"the kids called our house \"la \nmaison du chien\"\" (\nto quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a problem with \nsolving as Wolfe.\nCerberus is a dog; the three-headed beast is a dog. \"Wolfe\"=wolfe !=dog != \nCerberus/three-headed \ndog in the front of the mansion.\nThe archives don't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or \neven if it ever came up.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11c5e0e205082300035bc58aa0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Los Arboles Del Frio", "address": "losarbolesdelfrio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T00:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is\nmy sketchy knowledge of French betraying me?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T01:47:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<11c5e0e205082300035bc58aa0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly we know that the last name begins with a \"W\", and has \nsome sort of association with \"dog\". While the original settlers in the \nsystem were French-speaking, this particular family is from a later wave, \nfrom someplace English-speaking. So if it were a word evocative of dogs, you \nwould expect it to be in English word.\n\nPersonally I don't see much importance in this little tidbit, but when I \nread it \"Wolfe\" was indeed the first name that came to mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is\nmy sketchy knowledge of French betraying me?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004c01c5a7f7$ec4ee000$1be8b8a1@yourg4lzvxou0c>", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2005-08-23T08:23:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maru writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've\nnoticed that one of the more popular theories for Fifth Head\nof Cerberus is that the unnamed family is surnamed \"Wolfe\".\nI can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with\nidentity, and with the only obvious clear clue to the surname\nthe statement \"the kids called our house \"la maison du chien\"\"\n(to quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a\nproblem with solving as Wolfe. Cerberus is a dog; the three-\nheaded beast is a dog. \"Wolfe\"=wolfe !=dog != Cerberus/\nthree-headed dog in the front of the mansion. The archives\ndon't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or even\nif it ever came up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the family surname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written lots of books and that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the library. He clearly expects the books to be in the fiction section, since that's where he's looking, and the last name they're under is in the W section near Virginia Woolf (if I recall correctly).\n\nSo we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word \"chien\" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of and that's \"wolf.\" Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in Castle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves?\n\nFurthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. Given that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them are therefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is that Number 5's father is probably named \"Jean,\" the French version of John. But pronounced in an English way, \"Jean\" is homophonic with \"Gene.\"\n\nThat, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) by Robert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up again yet?\n\nJohn\nhttp://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<430B6D6B.5030004@charter.net>", "from": { "name": "JWillard", "address": "aldenweer at charter.net" }, "date": "2005-08-23T11:39:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<004c01c5a7f7$ec4ee000$1be8b8a1@yourg4lzvxou0c>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Barach wrote:\nMaru writes:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've\nnoticed that one of the more popular theories for Fifth Head\nof Cerberus is that the unnamed family is surnamed \"Wolfe\".\nI can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with\nidentity, and with the only obvious clear clue to the surname\nthe statement \"the kids called our house \"la maison du chien\"\"\n(to quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a\nproblem with solving as Wolfe. Cerberus is a dog; the three-\nheaded beast is a dog. \"Wolfe\"=wolfe !=dog != Cerberus/\nthree-headed dog in the front of the mansion. The archives\ndon't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or even\nif it ever came up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nThe name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the \nfamily surname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written \nlots of books and that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the \nlibrary. He clearly expects the books to be in the fiction section, \nsince that's where he's looking, and the last name they're under is in \nthe W section near Virginia Woolf (if I recall correctly).\n \nSo we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word \n\"chien\" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of \nand that's \"wolf.\" Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in \nCastle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves?\n \nFurthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. \nGiven that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them \nare therefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is \nthat Number 5's father is probably named \"Jean,\" the French version of \nJohn. But pronounced in an English way, \"Jean\" is homophonic with \"Gene.\"\n \nThat, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) \nby Robert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up \nagain yet?\n \nJohn\nhttp://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8826617af8470d51157a20c1cf624bde@stanfordalumni.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Lefstin", "address": "jeff.lefstin at stanfordalumni.org" }, "date": "2005-08-23T12:24:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<430B6D6B.5030004@charter.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word \n\"chien\" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of \nand that's \"wolf.\" Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in \nCastle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a line somewhere, which I think is among the more beautiful GW \nhas penned, that goes something like: \"The wolf is God's dog, half-mad \nwith hunger and the memory of His hands upon her head.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050824014123.57335.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T18:41:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<8826617af8470d51157a20c1cf624bde@stanfordalumni.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Jeffrey Lefstin \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So we're looking for a last name that is related\nto the French word \n\"chien\" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only\none I can think of \nand that's \"wolf.\" Doesn't Wolfe have an essay\nsomewhere (perhaps in \nCastle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are\njust tame wolves?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Besides, loup would be a dead giveaway, ham handed,\ninelegant, and not like GW at all. They're both canis\nwhich is about as close to obvious as he would ever\nseem to get. And yet vague enough to cause a\ndiscussion. All for a little pun. No wonder no one\ncan sort out the big picture. Evil.\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T21:41:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<430B6D6B.5030004@charter.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/23/05, JWillard wrote:\n\nI believe this is one of the few things that Wolfe has actually\nconfirmed in person...but I don't remember where it was right off.\nMaybe in Strokes, by John Clute...Yeah, here's the quote:\n\n\"A member of the class then asked a question about The Fifth Head of\nCerberus. Certain clues about the narrator's name seemed to lead in one\nparticular direction, he said. Given these clues, could the narrator's\nname really be Gene Wolfe? Gene glanced at the student in mild\nsurprise. \"Why of course,\" he said, as though he were the last person\nin the world to have a secret.\"\n\nI thought I read somewhere that chien's predominant meaning was dog, but\ncould also be wolf. But I don't remember for sure..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That quote doesn't actually settle anything. I remember another quote to the \neffect that Wolfe never actually lies himself. The relevant portion of your \nnice quote is \"could the narrator\". Sure he could. He could also be an alien \nfrom outerspace who ravishes women as a hobby.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T21:42:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<11c5e0e205082300035bc58aa0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/23/05, Los Arboles Del Frio wrote:\n\nAnd, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is\nmy sketchy knowledge of French betraying me?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thought (and thus problem) exactly.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-23T21:45:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "<004c01c5a7f7$ec4ee000$1be8b8a1@yourg4lzvxou0c>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/23/05, John Barach wrote:\n\nThe name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the family \nsurname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written lots of books \nand that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the library. He clearly \nexpects the books to be in the fiction section, since that's where he's \nlooking, and the last name they're under is in the W section near Virginia \nWoolf (if I recall correctly). \nSo we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word \n\"chien\" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of and \nthat's \"wolf.\" Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in Castle of \nDays) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves?\n Furthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. \nGiven that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them are \ntherefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is that Number \n5's father is probably named \"Jean,\" the French version of John. But \npronounced in an English way, \"Jean\" is homophonic with \"Gene.\"\n That, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) by \nRobert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up again yet?\n John\nhttp://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All good points: but what does it mean that Number 5 cannot find any books? \nIf Vinge has a volume in the libary, defintely Wolfe should as well. Which I \nfeel is a strike against the theory.\nI like the bit about Jeanette, but can we rely on it? After all, she is Dr. \nVeil too, is she not? So if her last is not Wolfe like the theory would \nhave, then why should any credence be put in her first name being of \nsignificance?\nBorski's site is still down (or rather up, and not letting anyone in). \n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<430DD9CA.5040904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-08-25T07:46:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HC (again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maru Dubshinki wrote:\nAll good points: but what does it mean that Number 5 cannot find any \nbooks? If Vinge has a volume in the libary, defintely Wolfe should as \nwell. Which I feel is a strike against the theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the time Wolfe wrote the original story, he had not yet published any \nbooks to my knowledge. Maitre's books are probably his private volumes \nof notes on vivisection and theories of how best to take over the world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the bit about Jeanette, but can we rely on it? After all, she is \nDr. Veil too, is she not? So if her last is not Wolfe like the theory \nwould have, then why should any credence be put in her first name being \nof significance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Veil (that which hides) could easily be an assumed name. She may even \nhave married a Mr. Veil in an attempt to further the planetary takeover \nplot." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }