5HC (again) The Urth list — 11 messages, 8 voices, 22 Aug 2005 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4492 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Maru Dubshinki — 22 Aug 2005, 22:55 As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've noticed that one of the more popular theories for Fifth Head of Cerberus is that the unnamed family is surnamed "Wolfe". I can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with identity, and with the only obvious clear clue to the surname the statement "the kids called our house "la maison du chien"" ( to quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a problem with solving as Wolfe. Cerberus is a dog; the three-headed beast is a dog. "Wolfe"=wolfe !=dog != Cerberus/three-headed dog in the front of the mansion. The archives don't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or even if it ever came up. ~Maru ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Los Arboles Del Frio — 23 Aug 2005, 00:03 in reply to Maru Dubshinki And, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is my sketchy knowledge of French betraying me? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chris — 23 Aug 2005, 01:47 in reply to Los Arboles Del Frio If I recall correctly we know that the last name begins with a "W", and has some sort of association with "dog". While the original settlers in the system were French-speaking, this particular family is from a later wave, from someplace English-speaking. So if it were a word evocative of dogs, you would expect it to be in English word. Personally I don't see much importance in this little tidbit, but when I read it "Wolfe" was indeed the first name that came to mind. > And, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is > my sketchy knowledge of French betraying me? > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Barach — 23 Aug 2005, 08:23 in reply to Maru Dubshinki Maru writes: > As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've > noticed that one of the more popular theories for Fifth Head > of Cerberus is that the unnamed family is surnamed "Wolfe". > I can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with > identity, and with the only obvious clear clue to the surname > the statement "the kids called our house "la maison du chien"" > (to quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a > problem with solving as Wolfe. Cerberus is a dog; the three- > headed beast is a dog. "Wolfe"=wolfe !=dog != Cerberus/ > three-headed dog in the front of the mansion. The archives > don't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or even > if it ever came up. The name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the family surname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written lots of books and that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the library. He clearly expects the books to be in the fiction section, since that's where he's looking, and the last name they're under is in the W section near Virginia Woolf (if I recall correctly). So we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word "chien" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of and that's "wolf." Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in Castle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves? Furthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. Given that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them are therefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is that Number 5's father is probably named "Jean," the French version of John. But pronounced in an English way, "Jean" is homophonic with "Gene." That, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) by Robert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up again yet? John http://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ JWillard — 23 Aug 2005, 11:39 in reply to John Barach > John Barach wrote: > Maru writes: > > > As usual, I've been reading through the archives again; I've > > noticed that one of the more popular theories for Fifth Head > > of Cerberus is that the unnamed family is surnamed "Wolfe". > > I can see the attraction of this, in an novel concerned with > > identity, and with the only obvious clear clue to the surname > > the statement "the kids called our house "la maison du chien"" > > (to quote from memory) in the first novella. But this has a > > problem with solving as Wolfe. Cerberus is a dog; the three- > > headed beast is a dog. "Wolfe"=wolfe !=dog != Cerberus/ > > three-headed dog in the front of the mansion. The archives > > don't tell me how this difficulty was resolved, if it was, or even > > if it ever came up. > > The name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the > family surname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written > lots of books and that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the > library. He clearly expects the books to be in the fiction section, > since that's where he's looking, and the last name they're under is in > the W section near Virginia Woolf (if I recall correctly). > > So we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word > "chien" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of > and that's "wolf." Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in > Castle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves? > > Furthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. > Given that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them > are therefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is > that Number 5's father is probably named "Jean," the French version of > John. But pronounced in an English way, "Jean" is homophonic with "Gene." > > That, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) > by Robert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up > again yet? > > John > http://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeffrey Lefstin — 23 Aug 2005, 12:24 follows, by subject match JWillard > So we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word > "chien" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of > and that's "wolf." Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in > Castle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves? There's a line somewhere, which I think is among the more beautiful GW has penned, that goes something like: "The wolf is God's dog, half-mad with hunger and the memory of His hands upon her head." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ don doggett — 23 Aug 2005, 18:41 in reply to Jeffrey Lefstin > --- Jeffrey Lefstin > wrote: > > So we're looking for a last name that is related > > to the French word > > "chien" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only > > one I can think of > > and that's "wolf." Doesn't Wolfe have an essay > > somewhere (perhaps in > > Castle of Days) where he talks about how dogs are > > just tame wolves? Besides, loup would be a dead giveaway, ham handed, inelegant, and not like GW at all. They're both canis which is about as close to obvious as he would ever seem to get. And yet vague enough to cause a discussion. All for a little pun. No wonder no one can sort out the big picture. Evil. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maru Dubshinki — 23 Aug 2005, 21:41 in reply to JWillard > On 8/23/05, JWillard wrote: > > I believe this is one of the few things that Wolfe has actually > confirmed in person...but I don't remember where it was right off. > Maybe in Strokes, by John Clute...Yeah, here's the quote: > > "A member of the class then asked a question about The Fifth Head of > Cerberus. Certain clues about the narrator's name seemed to lead in one > particular direction, he said. Given these clues, could the narrator's > name really be Gene Wolfe? Gene glanced at the student in mild > surprise. "Why of course," he said, as though he were the last person > in the world to have a secret." > > I thought I read somewhere that chien's predominant meaning was dog, but > could also be wolf. But I don't remember for sure... That quote doesn't actually settle anything. I remember another quote to the effect that Wolfe never actually lies himself. The relevant portion of your nice quote is "could the narrator". Sure he could. He could also be an alien from outerspace who ravishes women as a hobby. ~Maru ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maru Dubshinki — 23 Aug 2005, 21:42 in reply to Los Arboles Del Frio > On 8/23/05, Los Arboles Del Frio wrote: > > And, as far as I can remember, chien means dog. Wolf would be loup. Is > my sketchy knowledge of French betraying me? My thought (and thus problem) exactly. ~Maru ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maru Dubshinki — 23 Aug 2005, 21:45 in reply to John Barach > On 8/23/05, John Barach wrote: > > The name of the house is not the only obvious clear clue as to the family > surname. We're also told that Number 5's father has written lots of books > and that Number 5 looks for them when he visits the library. He clearly > expects the books to be in the fiction section, since that's where he's > looking, and the last name they're under is in the W section near Virginia > Woolf (if I recall correctly). > So we're looking for a last name that is related to the French word > "chien" (dog) and begins with a W. There's only one I can think of and > that's "wolf." Doesn't Wolfe have an essay somewhere (perhaps in Castle of > Days) where he talks about how dogs are just tame wolves? > Furthermore, we're also told that Number 5's aunt is named Jeanette. > Given that she's the sister of Number 5's father and that both of them are > therefore likely to be clones of the grandfather, the theory is that Number > 5's father is probably named "Jean," the French version of John. But > pronounced in an English way, "Jean" is homophonic with "Gene." > That, at least, is the theory set forth (again: if I recall correctly) by > Robert Borski. Speaking of which, is his Fifth Head website up again yet? > John > http://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn All good points: but what does it mean that Number 5 cannot find any books? If Vinge has a volume in the libary, defintely Wolfe should as well. Which I feel is a strike against the theory. I like the bit about Jeanette, but can we rely on it? After all, she is Dr. Veil too, is she not? So if her last is not Wolfe like the theory would have, then why should any credence be put in her first name being of significance? Borski's site is still down (or rather up, and not letting anyone in). ~Maru ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 25 Aug 2005, 07:46 in reply to Maru Dubshinki > Maru Dubshinki wrote: > All good points: but what does it mean that Number 5 cannot find any > books? If Vinge has a volume in the libary, defintely Wolfe should as > well. Which I feel is a strike against the theory. At the time Wolfe wrote the original story, he had not yet published any books to my knowledge. Maitre's books are probably his private volumes of notes on vivisection and theories of how best to take over the world. > I like the bit about Jeanette, but can we rely on it? After all, she is > Dr. Veil too, is she not? So if her last is not Wolfe like the theory > would have, then why should any credence be put in her first name being > of significance? Veil (that which hides) could easily be an assumed name. She may even have married a Mr. Veil in an attempt to further the planetary takeover plot. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------