{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4494", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4494, "subject": "Elementary", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2005-08-25T03:43:43+00:00", "last": "2005-08-27T13:18:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050825053843.03b3f0f0@pop.vippn.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "autarch at vippn.com" }, "date": "2005-08-25T03:43:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All good points: but what does it mean that Number 5 cannot find any books?\n\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they've all been checked out and are being read by avid (or should \nthat be rabid?) fans!\n\nDan " } ] }, { "message_id": "<11c5e0e205082503476a55c91b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Los Arboles Del Frio", "address": "losarbolesdelfrio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-25T03:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "<6.2.1.2.0.20050825053843.03b3f0f0@pop.vippn.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because they've all been checked out and are being read by avid (or should\nthat be rabid?) fans!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or because that library has none, maybe?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-25T20:29:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "<11c5e0e205082503476a55c91b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/25/05, Los Arboles Del Frio wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Because they've all been checked out and are being read by avid (or \nshould\nthat be rabid?) fans!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or because that library has none, maybe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be snippy, that was what I was asking: if his 'father' has written a \nwhole roomful of books\nlike the lady said, and we are correct in identifying the original as Gene \nWolfe, where are the books?\nGene Wolfe is popular. \nTwo possibilities: A) this whole question is an anacrhonism; Wolfe had no \nway of knowing he would be a success\nand go on to write many fairly popular books; B) we are wrong in our premise \nthat the \"masion du chien\" = Wolfe\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T01:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does this take that much agonizing? The fact that Gene Wolfe is popular now \nis irrelevant, unless you're claiming that somehow Wolfe somehow should have \nknown back then that he would be as popular an author as Vinge. Even if you \nassume he made that presumption, when you think about it it would be a \nrelative miracle for a book by Vinge or Wolfe to have survived and made its \nway into a library on a planet circling another star.\n\n\n\nMaru said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be snippy, that was what I was asking: if his 'father' has written a\nwhole roomful of books\nlike the lady said, and we are correct in identifying the original as Gene\nWolfe, where are the books?\nGene Wolfe is popular.\nTwo possibilities: A) this whole question is an anacrhonism; Wolfe had no\nway of knowing he would be a success\nand go on to write many fairly popular books; B) we are wrong in our \npremise\nthat the \"masion du chien\" = Wolfe\n\n~Maru" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T09:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maru D. writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be snippy, that was what I was asking: if his 'father' has written a\nwhole roomful of books\nlike the lady said, and we are correct in identifying the original as Gene\nWolfe, where are the books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Almost certainly any books written by Maitre would be in the non-fiction \nsections of the stacks--something the very young Number Five may not yet \nhave conceptualized. (Hmmm, wonder if they use the Dewey Decimal System way \nout there on Saint Croix?)\n\nBut perhaps more importantly, two of the books #5 does find are _Monday or \nTuesday_ by Virginia Woolf and _The Great Prince Died_ by Bernard Wolfe. \nSurely, you can see the pattern, no matter how much they jibe against your \nchien = wolf animadversion?\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001f01c5aa7a$8c0c5e40$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T13:14:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maru D. writes:\nAlmost certainly any books written by Maitre would be in the non-fiction\nsections of the stacks--something the very young Number Five may not yet\nhave conceptualized. (Hmmm, wonder if they use the Dewey Decimal System\nway\nout there on Saint Croix?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall, one of the other books he finds is _The Mile-long Spaceship_ by\nKate Wilhelm, which he (mistakenly) believes has been misshelved from the\nastronautics section, so he clearly knows the difference between fiction and\nnon-fiction.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T14:14:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "<001f01c5aa7a$8c0c5e40$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/26/05, David Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maru D. writes:\nAlmost certainly any books written by Maitre would be in the non-fiction\nsections of the stacks--something the very young Number Five may not yet\nhave conceptualized. (Hmmm, wonder if they use the Dewey Decimal System\nway\nout there on Saint Croix?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I recall, one of the other books he finds is _The Mile-long Spaceship_ \nby\nKate Wilhelm, which he (mistakenly) believes has been misshelved from the\nastronautics section, so he clearly knows the difference between fiction \nand\nnon-fiction.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thta is what my edition reads as as well. I've never heard of \"The Great \nPrince Dies\".\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T15:32:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maru writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've never heard of \"The Great Prince Dies\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the \"book about the assassination of Trotsky\" that Number Five finds \nnext to Virginia Woolf's _Monday or Tuesday_ and was written by Bernard \nWolfe, who, besides having been a bodyguard for Trotsky in Mexico, also \nwrote in various genres and was a frequent contributer to Playboy. His only \nsf novel is _Limbo_ (once hailed by JG Ballard as the best American sf \nnovel), but when Gene Wolfe first began to make a name for himself, he may \nhave been frequently asked if he was related to this other Wolfe (let alone \nTom and Thomas). For more info see either Clute's _Encyclopedia_ or Harlan \nEllison's intro to B. Wolfe's stories in _Again, Dangerous Visions_ .\n\nAlso, while I have your attention: the Linnaean binomial for wolf is \"Canis \nlupus,\" and it's a well-established fact that wolves and dogs can \ninterbreed. Biologically, it can even be argued they are the same species, \nand while \"chien\" and \"loup\" are not perfect synonyms like \"car\" and \"auto,\"\nthe difference is more an artificial distinction than an actual one.\n\nC5H9NO4 (he, he)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001501c5aa92$3840dfd0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-26T16:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[\"The Great Prince Dies\" is] the \"book about the assassination of Trotsky\"\nthat Number Five finds next to Virginia Woolf's _Monday or Tuesday_ and\nwas written by Bernard Wolfe, who, besides having been a bodyguard for\nTrotsky in Mexico, also wrote in various genres and was a frequent\ncontributer to Playboy. His only\nsf novel is _Limbo_ (once hailed by JG Ballard as the best American sf\nnovel)..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the section Number Five is looking in seems to be the \"science\nfiction authors\" section; that is, any authors who have written science\nfiction. The library seems to organize its books the way I do rather than\naccording to the DDS.\n\nApparently, the original or one of his clones had written SF or had written\nsomething (like his life story) that was believed to be SF.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<430FFE34.2070005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T22:46:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "<001501c5aa92$3840dfd0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nApparently, the original or one of his clones had written SF or had written\nsomething (like his life story) that was believed to be SF." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe, with typical family tunnel vision, 5 continues going up to the \nsection he's already familiar with from younger desires for more story \nbooks. Besides, it's up some rickety stairs at the top of the dome, \nwhere Mister Million can't follow and his voice would be hardest to hear." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<431002D8.1050608@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-08-26T23:06:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nDoes this take that much agonizing? The fact that Gene Wolfe is popular \nnow is irrelevant, unless you're claiming that somehow Wolfe somehow \nshould have known back then that he would be as popular an author as \nVinge. Even if you assume he made that presumption, when you think about \nit it would be a relative miracle for a book by Vinge or Wolfe to have \nsurvived and made its way into a library on a planet circling another star." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a BIG library as described, and the locals could not hope to have \nproduced enough writings of note in their debased state of \ncivilizational devolution.\n\nGiven the political history also described, wholesale re-printing of \nEnglish-language books from Earth could be a conscious culture war \nstratagem. The authorities depicted as never throwing anything written \naway, though they are fairly indifferent about keeping it up.\n\nSome or all of the above may be a reflection of GW's experiences with \nhis alma mater, complete with autocratic unformed authoritarians, \nneoclassical buildings plopped down in the middle of the wilderness to \nestablish Anglophone civilization where former continental colonies had \nbeen, libraries crammed with books but relatively little care given \nthem, even the lengthy evening sunlight during the play is to be found \nthere. Oh, and the vivisection as well, lest we forget." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-27T01:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "<431002D8.1050608@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSome or all of the above may be a reflection of GW's experiences with his \nalma mater..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, and the vivisection as well, lest we forget." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n...\nWhat?\n\nCivet" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4310CA95.4040506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-08-27T13:18:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Elementary", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some or all of the above may be a reflection of GW's experiences with \nhis alma mater..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, and the vivisection as well, lest we forget." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n...\nWhat?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Texas A&M has a prominent veterinary school, it occupies several \nbuildings on campus, some decorated with sculpted animal skulls. Part of \nthe curriculum involves practicing surgical procedures on live animals.\n\nNow that I think about it, the university is a fair microcosm of Urthian \narchitechture and geography, compressed in time as well as space. It has \nsprawled noticeably between my leaving 17 years ago and my latest visit \nthis spring, but even during GW's matriculation it apparently had \noccupational segregation, hidden nooks and forgotten alcoves, disparate \nparts connected via tunnel, technical wonders alongside agrarian \ncommonality, ritual fire of cannon far older and longer at peace than \ntheir operators were old.\n\nThere's even a bronze fasces forming the base of the flagpole at the old \ncenter of campus! I'll have to seriously think about compiling a LEXICON \nTEXAS with some of these factoids some day." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }