{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4495", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4495, "subject": "bluegreenandcerberus", "messages": 10, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-08-28T22:08:27+00:00", "last": "2005-08-29T14:41:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20050829050713.00E4FE5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com>", "from": { "name": "walter read", "address": "wread77 at lycos.com" }, "date": "2005-08-28T22:08:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you read The Book oh the Short Sun?!?!?! have you read 5th head of cerberus?!?!?! well do you know the connection? I just fininshed cerberus and im shocked that noone has brought this up for speculation. I suppose i could be... no im sure of it! if anyone out there has read these please tell me you got it too? i dont wanna say anything (like spoilers) but anyone who has read book of the short sun should really get much (MUCH) more out of 5th head of cerberus than one who hasnt... ! " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "_______________________________________________\n\nSearch for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pages\n\nhttp://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-29T02:53:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<20050829050713.00E4FE5BC7@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0473.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0013/whorl.v012.n178.6.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0203/370.txt.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0026/0073.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0001/0052.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0505.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0010/0039.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0514.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0013/whorl.v012.n185.6.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0011/0046.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0001/0010.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0515.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0381.shtml\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0001/0049.shtml\nhttp://www.mikespace.net/images/photos/new_order_at_finsbury_park_2002/the_excitement_is_all_too_much_for_dan_who_goes_insane.jpg\n\nJust to scan the tip of the iceberg, that's a start.\n\nWhile you're at it you might as well just go all the way and read \nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0212/2523.txt.shtml along with the \nseveral threads that followed it. If your head hasn't melted by the end of \nthat, you will be well primed to pursue this investigation.\n\n-- Civet\n\nWalter Read said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you read The Book oh the Short Sun?!?!?! have you read 5th head of \ncerberus?!?!?! well do you know the connection? I just fininshed cerberus \nand im shocked that noone has brought this up for speculation. I suppose i \ncould be... no im sure of it! if anyone out there has read these please \ntell me you got it too? i dont wanna say anything (like spoilers) but \nanyone who has read book of the short sun should really get much (MUCH) \nmore out of 5th head of cerberus than one who hasnt... !\n\n--\n_______________________________________________\n\nSearch for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow \nPages\n\nhttp://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18E9D656-CA39-48EA-8248-B3F6048CC75C@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "from": { "name": "Adrian Robert", "address": "arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu" }, "date": "2005-08-29T05:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Walter Read said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you read The Book oh the Short Sun?!?!?! have you read 5th \nhead of cerberus?!?!?! well do you know the connection? I just \nfininshed cerberus and im shocked.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 29, 2005, at 5:53 AM, Chris wrote:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0473.shtml" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[more archive URLs removed..]\n\n\nI realize this topic has been discussed (to death?) by the list \nbefore and also that Wolfe's own answers have tended to quash the \nidea of a \"reality\" behind the parallel, but the coincidences are \ninteresting enough in their own right to be worth listing out \nanyhow. So here are the parallels I've noticed between Blue / Green \nand St. Croix / St. Anne. (Earth/Lune and/or Ushas have also come \ninto these discussions, but those parallels, to the extent they \nexist, are of a different order than these..)\n\n+ Both systems are binary planets approximately the same distance\n from one another. St. Croix and Blue are predominately water\n planets; St. Anne and Green predominately vegetated land.\n\n- However, Green is portrayed as consisting largely of jungle,\n whereas St. Anne is lauded for its \"meadowmeres\", and 'A Story'\n describes a variety of different terrains, none of them jungle.\n\n\n+ Green and St. Anne are both the home of a shape-shifting race with\n non-human characteristics.\n\n- However the nonhuman aspects differ -- reptilian and blood-sucking\n in Green's case, while the St. Anne abos have their brains in\n their thoraxes and moreover they were said to be capable of\n assuming forms far more varied than the inhumi.\n\n\n+ In addition, St. Green/Blue were home to a second race, more\n intelligent, or at least more socially adaptable or having a\n better affinity with humans than the first. St. Anne (we don't\n know about St. Croix) was also home to a second race, also with a\n stronger connection to humans. At one point in 'A Story' it is\n even said that they *were* human.\n\n- The 'neighbors' are said to have 4-legged / 4-armed bodies,\n obviously different from the shrunken humanoid bodies of the\n shadow children. They have mostly left Green/Blue where they were\n native, whereas the shadow children were said to be immigrants who\n came to St. Anne.\n\n\n+ Both the neighbors and the shadow children used the distinctive term\n \"starcrosser\" to refer to spaceships.\n\n\nThose are the ones I come up with. Can anyone think of any I \nmissed? Granted, there are differences, but the parallels are so \nstriking as to seem hardly incidental. However, Green / Blue is in \nthe incomprehensibly far future, while _Fifth Head_ seems to be mere \ncenturies beyond the present day. Can the histories be reconciled? \nGiven such a span of time, almost anything could be proposed of \ncourse, but what about something minimal and plausible?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004701c5ac9b$efc8a6a0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2005-08-29T06:19:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<18E9D656-CA39-48EA-8248-B3F6048CC75C@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adrian Robert wrote \"Given such a span of time, almost anything could be\nproposed of\ncourse, but what about something minimal and plausible?\"\n\nHow about this?\n\n\"Gene Wolfe is extremely interested in the question of identity, what it\nmeans to be human, and whether identity and humanity can be mimicked by\nmachines, aliens or other humans. These themes are present in many of his\nworks. A common way he explores these ideas is to create a duality between a\nrelatively mundane setting in which our conventional notions of identity\n(etc.) apply, and another in which they do not.\"\n\nI realize that this isn't what you are looking for, but I think it's more\nlikely than any convoluted scheme that ties Wolfe's novels and stories\ntogether by plot.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11356332.1125324264989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-29T07:04:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<004701c5ac9b$efc8a6a0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I realize this topic has been discussed (to death?) by the list \nbefore and also that Wolfe's own answers have tended to\nquash the idea of a \"reality\" behind the parallel, but the\ncoincidences are interesting enough in their own right to be\nworth listing out anyhow. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has Wolfe emphatically denied that Bleen is Number Five's\nsystem? I do remember him responding to Gevers' question\nas to whether it \"would be useful\" to view the systems as a\nthe same and Wolfe said, \"I really couldn't say.\"\n\n\nI posted a quite extensive list on this once upon a time\nbut I don't see it in the archives so maybe it was posted\nin the lost year. Here is a partial list:\n\n+ St. Anne is a green colored planet. Watery St Croix is blue.\nIncidently, \"Pandora, by Holly Hollander\" also employs the\nGreen/Blue connection since the two protagonists' names are\nHolly (an evergreen) and Alladin Blue.\n\n+ Mr. Million is a walking sacred window. Chems could be\nthought of being the same.\n\n+ Spiral staircase in the library and The Eye in which\nSandwalker is held are both *whorls*.\n\nThe following are (apparently) debatable, although I don't\nseriously doubt them:\n\n+ Number Five and V.R.T are *somehow* twins, since they\nshare each other's dreams. Horn meets his twin, another \"Horn\"\namong the Neighbors.\n\n+ St. Anne has senient trees. In SS, the Neighbors *are* in\nsome ways trees, and if one doubts that, there is no doubting\nthat Krait spoke of them that way:\n\"The trees are bigger up the river. Bigger and older, and not\nso sleepy.\" 306 OBW\n\n+ The annese were originally \"long\" as the Shadow Child told\nSandwalker. So I'm guessing they were originally in the form\nof the \"huge worms, luminous but of the livid color of a dead\nman's lips, writhe underfoot at night\" found by Dr. Marsch.\nOf course, the inhumi are also frequently compared to snakes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- St. Anne abos...were said to be capable of\n assuming forms far more varied than the inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced we know the extent of the forms\ninhumi can take. We know they can assume human disguise\nbecause humans are the subject of the story. But they must\nhave assumed other forms before humans came, and I\nstrongly suggest you pay close attention to those lianas (and\nthe Rajan's staff which was made from a liana)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- The 'neighbors' are said to have 4-legged / 4-armed bodies,\nobviously different from the shrunken humanoid bodies of the\nshadow children. They have mostly left Green/Blue where they were\nnative, whereas the shadow children were said to be immigrants who\ncame to St. Anne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a great deal of doubt about what the Shadow Child tells\nSandwalker as to their pasts. In fact, Wolfe has referred to Sandwalker\nas \"the Shadow Child\".\n\nOh yeah. And there's another similarity between Number Five' family and\nand Tussah's but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is.\n;-)\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18593302.1125324914391.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-29T07:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<11356332.1125324264989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha identifies an extremely important thread\nin Wolfe's works, and then says...]\nI realize that this isn't what you are looking for, but I think it's more\nlikely than any convoluted scheme that ties Wolfe's novels and stories\ntogether by plot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I think is is obvious that Wolfe is riffing\noff some unidentified themes and references, and that he\nrecycles some of his previously used ideas and motifs to\nemploy them in other stories.\n\nTo tie the stories together narratively does not seem to be\npossible given the differences between the inhumi and the\nannese that have already been noted.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5B036BC3-248B-441A-9B18-A943306256F9@cogsci.ucsd.edu>", "from": { "name": "Adrian Robert", "address": "arobert at cogsci.ucsd.edu" }, "date": "2005-08-29T08:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<004701c5ac9b$efc8a6a0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 29, 2005, at 9:16 AM, David Lebling wrote:\nAdrian Robert wrote \"Given such a span of time, almost anything \ncould be\nproposed of\ncourse, but what about something minimal and plausible?\"\n\nHow about this?\n\n\"Gene Wolfe is extremely interested in the question of identity, \nwhat it\nmeans to be human, and whether identity and humanity can be \nmimicked by\nmachines, aliens or other humans. These themes are present in many \nof his\nworks. A common way he explores these ideas is to create a duality \nbetween a\nrelatively mundane setting in which our conventional notions of \nidentity\n(etc.) apply, and another in which they do not.\"\n\nI realize that this isn't what you are looking for, but I think \nit's more\nlikely than any convoluted scheme that ties Wolfe's novels and stories\ntogether by plot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. But there's still a certain pleasure in imagining the more \ndirect connection.." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-08-29T11:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<11356332.1125324264989.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it depends. From the links I posted, Borski in 1999 claims that Wolfe \nhas emphatically denied that the worlds are the same, but does not say \nwhen/where. It's hearsay, but Borski is not the most unreliable source for \nsomething like that.\n\nThen there is a Q & A session from 97, which was quoted but not directly \nlinked in my last post. Link: \nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml - text:\n\n25. \"Does Green/Blue have anything to do with THE FIFTH HEAD OF\nCERBERUS?\" No.\n\nI know that we can semantically wiggle around with this, but there doesn't \nseem to be much point.\n\nI have taken the position that you can't consult the author for the \"right\" \nway to interpret his text - everything absolute that the author has to \ncontribute to the meaning of the text is *in the text*. Others would like to \nrely on asking questions of the author and take the position that his word, \neven after the fact, is law - and this is a consistent enough position until \nyou then start wrangling over how to interpret his answers to those \nquestions. At that point you are no better off than you were before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I realize this topic has been discussed (to death?) by the list\nbefore and also that Wolfe's own answers have tended to\nquash the idea of a \"reality\" behind the parallel, but the\ncoincidences are interesting enough in their own right to be\nworth listing out anyhow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Has Wolfe emphatically denied that Bleen is Number Five's\nsystem? I do remember him responding to Gevers' question\nas to whether it \"would be useful\" to view the systems as a\nthe same and Wolfe said, \"I really couldn't say.\"\n\n\nI posted a quite extensive list on this once upon a time\nbut I don't see it in the archives so maybe it was posted\nin the lost year. Here is a partial list:\n\n+ St. Anne is a green colored planet. Watery St Croix is blue.\nIncidently, \"Pandora, by Holly Hollander\" also employs the\nGreen/Blue connection since the two protagonists' names are\nHolly (an evergreen) and Alladin Blue.\n\n+ Mr. Million is a walking sacred window. Chems could be\nthought of being the same.\n\n+ Spiral staircase in the library and The Eye in which\nSandwalker is held are both *whorls*.\n\nThe following are (apparently) debatable, although I don't\nseriously doubt them:\n\n+ Number Five and V.R.T are *somehow* twins, since they\nshare each other's dreams. Horn meets his twin, another \"Horn\"\namong the Neighbors.\n\n+ St. Anne has senient trees. In SS, the Neighbors *are* in\nsome ways trees, and if one doubts that, there is no doubting\nthat Krait spoke of them that way:\n\"The trees are bigger up the river. Bigger and older, and not\nso sleepy.\" 306 OBW\n\n+ The annese were originally \"long\" as the Shadow Child told\nSandwalker. So I'm guessing they were originally in the form\nof the \"huge worms, luminous but of the livid color of a dead\nman's lips, writhe underfoot at night\" found by Dr. Marsch.\nOf course, the inhumi are also frequently compared to snakes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- St. Anne abos...were said to be capable of\n assuming forms far more varied than the inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not convinced we know the extent of the forms\ninhumi can take. We know they can assume human disguise\nbecause humans are the subject of the story. But they must\nhave assumed other forms before humans came, and I\nstrongly suggest you pay close attention to those lianas (and\nthe Rajan's staff which was made from a liana)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- The 'neighbors' are said to have 4-legged / 4-armed bodies,\nobviously different from the shrunken humanoid bodies of the\nshadow children. They have mostly left Green/Blue where they were\nnative, whereas the shadow children were said to be immigrants who\ncame to St. Anne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a great deal of doubt about what the Shadow Child tells\nSandwalker as to their pasts. In fact, Wolfe has referred to Sandwalker\nas \"the Shadow Child\".\n\nOh yeah. And there's another similarity between Number Five' family and\nand Tussah's but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is.\n;-)\n\nJ\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20050829204720.84564.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-08-29T13:47:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<004701c5ac9b$efc8a6a0$a51b0101@gensym.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- David Lebling wrote:\n\nI realize that this isn't what you are looking for,\nbut I think it's more\nlikely than any convoluted scheme that ties Wolfe's\nnovels and stories\ntogether by plot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except when they obviously take place in the same\nuniverse, as NS LS and SS do. I agree however that\nthe ties between 5HC and these works are largely\nthematic.\n\ndon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1125432.1125351656734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-08-29T14:41:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bluegreenandcerberus", "in_reply_to": "<20050829204720.84564.qmail@web32411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "25. \"Does Green/Blue have anything to do with THE FIFTH HEAD OF\nCERBERUS?\" No." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have taken the position that you can't consult the author for the \"right\" \nway to interpret his text - everything absolute that the author has to \ncontribute to the meaning of the text is *in the text*. Others would like\nto rely on asking questions of the author and take the position that his\nword, even after the fact, is law - and this is a consistent enough\nposition until you then start wrangling over how to interpret his\nanswers to those questions. At that point you are no better off than\nyou were before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there questions and there are questions. Same for answers. \n\nI would very much like it if people would stop using suppositional\nlanguage when asking Wolfe questions (such as \"Could it be...\" or\n\"Shouldn't one gather...\") Wolfe clearly loooves to answer those with\na chipper \"You bet!\" or a thoughtful \"Hmmm....I don't know\", knowing\nfull well that within 24 hours he will realize he has no answer at all. \nI understand that you are nervous and you don't want to sound like a \nboar asking impertinent questions but just ask the question in the\nmost simple way possible and if you get an answer hooray and\nif you don't you dont'.\n\nAnd then there are the questions like the one above or:\n\n27. \"Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal?\" No.\n\nThe asker really already suspected the answer, but decided to take a long shot.\n\nMy personal favorites are when Wolfe cleverly manages to only answer half\nthe question (or less). Like this one from the Q&A:\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml\n\n22. \"Why did Auk . . . kidnap Hyacinth, and why . . . did he let her\ngo?\" Because Tartaros had told him to bring a woman. He released\nher as he recovered from his brain injury, was able to think more\nclearly, and realized that Hyacinth was not the woman he should\nbring. (Putting it another way, he released her because Tartaros\ntold him to. These answers are not as disparate as they may appear.)\n\nUh huh. What woman was he supposed to bring? Why was Hyacinth\nunacceptable? And ***how the heck was anyone supposed to glean\neven that much from the text????***\n\nJ\n " } ] } ] }