{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4509", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4509, "subject": "changes", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2005-10-27T19:02:21+00:00", "last": "2005-10-28T18:18:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20051027190205.WCPQ4527.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "aramini1 at cox.net", "address": "aramini1 at cox.net" }, "date": "2005-10-27T19:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an addendum to my previous posts, the most startling change is the one that overtakes Svon. He runs repeatedly throughout, is trounced by Toug who becomes his squire, and then winds up marrying Idnn and wearing Ravd's armor, fighting valiantly and bravely. When does this change occur? Why? Are we to believe that he stayed and protected Ravd's body? I think so, because the ghost of Ravd appears watching over him as he walks down a hall, according to Toug. Either that, or Ravd forgives him his weakness.\n\nEven Toug's sister goes off looking to find Able, and instead finds a stable family life that she is satisfied with. Its as if everybody gets what they want, but not exactly how they first envisioned it.\n\n\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000901c5dbb9$a19e3560$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-10-28T12:17:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changes", "in_reply_to": "<20051027190205.WCPQ4527.fed1rmmtao03.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we to believe that [Svon] stayed and protected Ravd's body? I think so,\nbecause the ghost of Ravd appears watching over him as he walks down a hall,\naccording to Toug. Either that, or Ravd forgives him his weakness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Able intimates that Svon's honor was unjustly harmed by a whispering\ncampaign that he had deserted Ravd. Svon had an attitude that made people\nwant to think the worst of him...even Ravd. But apparently he did fight\nhonorably with Ravd.\n\nI think, in this, Wolfe is attempting justify the knightly code of\nchallenges of duels to the death for comments that \"offend one's honor\". He\nis showing that words in secret can do as much as a knife in the back.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-10-28T18:18:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) changes", "in_reply_to": "<000901c5dbb9$a19e3560$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this issue to be particularly interesting not only for the new way it \nhas us look at Svon, but for the new way it has us look at Ravd.\n\nComing out of the first book (and most of the way through the second) Ravd \nis one character who really stands out as having *no flaws at all*. It is \nclear that Able idolizes him; on the basis of their very brief acquaintance, \nAble describes Ravd (in the character list at the beginning of The Knight) \nas \"the finest knight I ever saw\" - or something quite similar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this incident we are given a flaw that returns Ravd to more or less \nhuman status: he allowed his prejudices, his dislike of Svon, to get in the \nway of giving his student the particular treatment/teaching that he needed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a very small flaw, and apparently not deliberate, but one that did \nhave a significant effect. We are meant to sympathize with Ravd, I think, \nbecause from the narrative up to that point we would have made the same \nunfair judgment of Svon that he did. This takes considerable talent on the \npart of the narrator, and suggests a further dimension in which Able has \nmatured. (Although I find myself ultimately unconvinced that he is fully \nmature by the end of the story).\n\nAnother point/question: someone mentioned Toug seeing the ghost of Ravd \nlooking in on Svon in \"The Wizard\". The golden knight that Toug describes \nmight have been Ravd, but to be honest I thought that the image was that of \nthe older Svon, as described in the fight against the Osterlings later on. \nThis would also echo the scene of Able looking back on himself, which I \nthink is significant because Able, Svon and Toug are already very very close \nto being the same character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we to believe that [Svon] stayed and protected Ravd's body? I think \nso,\nbecause the ghost of Ravd appears watching over him as he walks down a \nhall,\naccording to Toug. Either that, or Ravd forgives him his weakness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Able intimates that Svon's honor was unjustly harmed by a \nwhispering\ncampaign that he had deserted Ravd. Svon had an attitude that made people\nwant to think the worst of him...even Ravd. But apparently he did fight\nhonorably with Ravd.\n\nI think, in this, Wolfe is attempting justify the knightly code of\nchallenges of duels to the death for comments that \"offend one's honor\". He\nis showing that words in secret can do as much as a knife in the back.\n\nJ\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }