{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4518", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4518, "subject": "TWK: Thou Art god", "messages": 10, "voices": 7, "first": "2005-11-27T08:24:47+00:00", "last": "2005-11-28T08:58:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001b01c5f32c$0becb520$323ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-11-27T08:24:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Art made his vow to defend that pass, he was an overgrown kid. What\ncomplicates matters is the fact that when he actually undertook the defenses\nhe was twenty years older, had the aid of a magic steed, and was a *god*. In\nfact, in all of his battles in the second book, after he came back from\nSkai, he was a god. That hardly seems fair. What had a god to fear in his\ncontests with mere men? Death? He had already died and gone to Skai. What\nwere the natural parameters of his powers as a god? Exclusive of the clearly\nsupernatural powers he used when he broke his vow at the end of the story,\nhow much stronger was he as a god than a mere man, and how much did that\ninfluence his prowess as a warrior?\n\nWhen Overcyn Able bent his knee to Queen Idnn or King Arnthor, a Mythgarthr\ngod was bowing to his supposed worshipers, a blasphemy of sorts, a reversal\nof the natural order of proper homage in the cosmology of TWK. I thought\nthat was what got the Aelf in trouble.\n\nAnd when Art the god stooped to dally with Disiri, he was twice removed from\nher, in terms of holiness. He was farther above Disiri near the end of the\nstory than Michael or Parka was above him.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10511270852.AA05175@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2005-11-27T08:52:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c5f32c$0becb520$323ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Overcyn Able bent his knee to Queen Idnn or King Arnthor, a Mythgarthr\ngod was bowing to his supposed worshipers, a blasphemy of sorts, a reversal\nof the natural order of proper homage in the cosmology of TWK. I thought\nthat was what got the Aelf in trouble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Able visited Skai and gained certain powers, but is it stated that he\nbecame an Overcyn? I thought it was necessary to be born into Skai for\nthat. After all, the dragons and Aelf who ascended to Mythgarthr did not\nbecome human." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-27T17:21:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<10511270852.AA05175@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 27 2005, at 3:52 AM, David DiGiacomo wrote:\nWhen Overcyn Able bent his knee to Queen Idnn or King Arnthor, a \nMythgarthr\ngod was bowing to his supposed worshipers, a blasphemy of sorts, a \nreversal\nof the natural order of proper homage in the cosmology of TWK. I \nthought\nthat was what got the Aelf in trouble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Able visited Skai and gained certain powers, but is it stated that he\nbecame an Overcyn? I thought it was necessary to be born into Skai \nfor\nthat. After all, the dragons and Aelf who ascended to Mythgarthr \ndid not\nbecome human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am pretty sure there was some close-to-explicit mention that he \nwas, in fact, an Overcyn, but I can't find it now. ;P\n\nI believe he said \"we Overcyns\" at some point..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<00b101c5f389$8e445840$6500a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-11-27T19:29:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c5f32c$0becb520$323ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Art made his vow to defend that pass, he was an overgrown kid.\nWhat complicates matters is the fact that when he actually undertook the\ndefenses he was twenty years older, had the aid of a magic steed, and\nwas a *god*. In fact, in all of his battles in the second book, after he\ncame back from Skai, he was a god. That hardly seems fair. What had\na god to fear in his contests with mere men? Death? He had already\ndied and gone to Skai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel some embarrassment at piling on against Roy for the crime stirring\nthe most interesting discussion on TWK in a while, however, here I go\nanyway:\n\nInstead of defending a pass as he was tasked, he rescued the King's sister\nfrom a dragon: dying in the endeavor. Holding a remote pass was only of\nincidental value to the realm. It was primarily a punishment. By the time he\nfulfills his promise, defending a pass in the name of a mere King of\nMythgarthr humiliating whereas before he probably considered it somewhat\nglorious." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001101c5f390$26124960$983ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-11-27T20:21:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<00b101c5f389$8e445840$6500a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cliff quoted and wrote:\nAble visited Skai and gained certain powers, but is it stated that he\nbecame an Overcyn? I thought it was necessary to be born into Skai\nfor\nthat. After all, the dragons and Aelf who ascended to Mythgarthr\ndid not\nbecome human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am pretty sure there was some close-to-explicit mention that he\nwas, in fact, an Overcyn, but I can't find it now. ;P\n\nI believe he said \"we Overcyns\" at some point..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the same page I cited earlier: (W, 386)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*****************************\n \"Oh, you Overcyns! Get up, please. I didn't mean to keep you kneeling in\nthe snow. Rise.\"\n I did, and her soft hand found mine. \"I feel you're my friend. That you\ntruly are. I've forty knights, and not one real friend among them. Did the\nValfather send you?\"\n \"Yes, Your Majesty. Or at least, he let me come.\"\n She stared. \"You're serious.\"\n \"Entirely, Your Majesty. When I talk to others, I try to conceal it. But\nI won't lie to you or the king. I won't even tell half truths, something I\ndo much too often.\"\n****************************\n\nShortly afterwards (W, 397), Able lectured the king about the cosmology of\nthe seven worlds, pointedly neglecting to mention where he had spent the\nlast twenty years and the fact that he was an Overcyn, which fact, had he\nrevealed it, would have lent weight to his long-undelivered message. That\nsmells like a half truth to me. But, had he revealed his status as an\nOvercyn, that would have cheapened his victory in the Trial by Arms, thereby\ncalling into question the innocence of the queen. At least, that's the only\nreason I can think of not to have told him the whole truth. In any event,\nhis word to the queen was soon broken.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10511272113.AA02210@slack.com>", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2005-11-27T21:13:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<001101c5f390$26124960$983ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \"Oh, you Overcyns! Get up, please. I didn't mean to keep you kneeling in\nthe snow. Rise.\"\n I did, and her soft hand found mine. \"I feel you're my friend. That you\ntruly are. I've forty knights, and not one real friend among them. Did the\nValfather send you?\"\n \"Yes, Your Majesty. Or at least, he let me come.\"\n She stared. \"You're serious.\"\n \"Entirely, Your Majesty. When I talk to others, I try to conceal it. But\nI won't lie to you or the king. I won't even tell half truths, something I\ndo much too often.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you are saying that because Able didn't contradict the queen's offhand\nremark here, he is an Overcyn? I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence.\nI still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-11-27T21:42:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<10511272113.AA02210@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \"Oh, you Overcyns! Get up, please. I didn't mean to keep you kneeling \nin\nthe snow. Rise.\"\n I did, and her soft hand found mine. \"I feel you're my friend. That \nyou\ntruly are. I've forty knights, and not one real friend among them. Did \nthe\nValfather send you?\"\n \"Yes, Your Majesty. Or at least, he let me come.\"\n She stared. \"You're serious.\"\n \"Entirely, Your Majesty. When I talk to others, I try to conceal it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But\nI won't lie to you or the king. I won't even tell half truths, something \nI\ndo much too often.\"\n\nSo you are saying that because Able didn't contradict the queen's offhand\nremark here, he is an Overcyn? I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence.\nI still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like all he directly admitted to there was that the Valfather let \nhim come. But the fact that the Valfather let him come back is not something \nI recall him concealing much. Which implies that he's also admitting to \nbeing an Overcyn, because what else is there that he would be trying to \nconceal there?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200511280117.jAS1HARB088237@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-11-28T01:17:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:42:01 -0800 Chris \nwrote:\n\nIt seems like all he directly admitted to there was that the \nValfather let \nhim come. But the fact that the Valfather let him come back is not " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "something \nI recall him concealing much. Which implies that he's also \nadmitting to \nbeing an Overcyn, because what else is there that he would be \ntrying to \nconceal there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't he tell Toug he's now an Overcyn, more or less directly, at \nthe start of Wizard? But Toug isn't to worship him, unless Able \ntells him to. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c5f3f8$edc6e0c0$6a3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-11-28T08:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<200511280117.jAS1HARB088237@mailserver2.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nDoesn't he tell Toug he's now an Overcyn, more or less directly, at\nthe start of Wizard? But Toug isn't to worship him, unless Able\ntells him to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. Page 56. He also says that his \"authority\" is now of Skai, not\nMythgarthr.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-11-28T08:58:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Thou Art god", "in_reply_to": "<10511272113.AA02210@slack.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David DiGiacomo writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you are saying that because Able didn't contradict the queen's offhand\nremark here, he is an Overcyn? I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence.\nI still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nAbel is (specifically) one of the Einherjar, the chosen slain, who are \ngathered in Valhalla (or the Lady's hall Forsetti) ready for the last fight \nat Ragnarok. \n\nThis status and this state are part of long-established Odinic theology: it \nis not something Wolfe made up. Abel acts in exactly the way I would, er, \nexpect such a being to act. \n\nIt doesn't make him a god, but it does make him an Overcyn. \n\n\n hartshorn, the rather nerdy Odinist" } ] } ] }