Subject: (urth) TWK: Thou Art god

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:24:47 +0000

When Art made his vow to defend that pass, he was an overgrown kid. What
complicates matters is the fact that when he actually undertook the defenses
he was twenty years older, had the aid of a magic steed, and was a *god*. In
fact, in all of his battles in the second book, after he came back from
Skai, he was a god. That hardly seems fair. What had a god to fear in his
contests with mere men? Death? He had already died and gone to Skai. What
were the natural parameters of his powers as a god? Exclusive of the clearly
supernatural powers he used when he broke his vow at the end of the story,
how much stronger was he as a god than a mere man, and how much did that
influence his prowess as a warrior?

When Overcyn Able bent his knee to Queen Idnn or King Arnthor, a Mythgarthr
god was bowing to his supposed worshipers, a blasphemy of sorts, a reversal
of the natural order of proper homage in the cosmology of TWK. I thought
that was what got the Aelf in trouble.

And when Art the god stooped to dally with Disiri, he was twice removed from
her, in terms of holiness. He was farther above Disiri near the end of the
story than Michael or Parka was above him.

-Roy

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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 08:52:30 +0000

>that was what got the Aelf in trouble.

Able visited Skai and gained certain powers, but is it stated that he
became an Overcyn?  I thought it was necessary to be born into Skai for
that.  After all, the dragons and Aelf who ascended to Mythgarthr did not
become human.

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From: transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:21:38 +0000

> that.  After all, the dragons and Aelf who ascended to Mythgarthr  

I am pretty sure there was some close-to-explicit mention that he  
was, in fact, an Overcyn, but I can't find it now. ;P

I believe he said "we Overcyns" at some point...

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From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:29:15 +0000

>When Art made his vow to defend that pass, he was an overgrown kid.
>What complicates matters is the fact that when he actually undertook the
>defenses he was twenty years older, had the aid of a magic steed, and
>was a *god*. In fact, in all of his battles in the second book, after he
>came back from Skai, he was a god. That hardly seems fair. What had
>a god to fear in his contests with mere men? Death? He had already
>died and gone to Skai.

I feel some embarrassment at piling on against Roy for the crime stirring
the most interesting discussion on TWK in a while, however, here I go
anyway:

Instead of defending a pass as he was tasked, he rescued the King's sister
from a dragon: dying in the endeavor. Holding a remote pass was only of
incidental value to the realm. It was primarily a punishment. By the time he
fulfills his promise, defending a pass in the name of a mere King of
Mythgarthr humiliating whereas before he probably considered it somewhat
glorious.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:21:20 +0000

>>From the same page I cited earlier: (W, 386)
*****************************
    "Oh, you Overcyns! Get up, please. I didn't mean to keep you kneeling in
the snow. Rise."
    I did, and her soft hand found mine. "I feel you're my friend. That you
truly are. I've forty knights, and not one real friend among them. Did the
Valfather send you?"
    "Yes, Your Majesty. Or at least, he let me come."
    She stared. "You're serious."
    "Entirely, Your Majesty. When I talk to others, I try to conceal it. But
I won't lie to you or the king. I won't even tell half truths, something I
do much too often."
****************************

Shortly afterwards (W, 397), Able lectured the king about the cosmology of
the seven worlds, pointedly neglecting to mention where he had spent the
last twenty years and the fact that he was an Overcyn, which fact, had he
revealed it, would have lent weight to his long-undelivered message. That
smells like a half truth to me. But, had he revealed his status as an
Overcyn, that would have cheapened his victory in the Trial by Arms, thereby
calling into question the innocence of the queen. At least, that's the only
reason I can think of not to have told him the whole truth. In any event,
his word to the queen was soon broken.

-Roy

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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:13:39 +0000

>I won't lie to you or the king. I won't even tell half truths, something I

So you are saying that because Able didn't contradict the queen's offhand
remark here, he is an Overcyn?  I'm not sure that's conclusive evidence.
I still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:42:01 +0000

>I still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added.

It seems like all he directly admitted to there was that the Valfather let 
him come. But the fact that the Valfather let him come back is not something 
I recall him concealing much. Which implies that he's also admitting to 
being an Overcyn, because what else is there that he would be trying to 
conceal there?

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 01:17:08 +0000

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:42:01 -0800 Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> 
wrote:
>him come. But the fact that the Valfather let him come back is not 

>something 

Doesn't he tell Toug he's now an Overcyn, more or less directly, at 
the start of Wizard? But Toug isn't to worship him, unless Able 
tells him to.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:50:59 +0000

>the start of Wizard? But Toug isn't to worship him, unless Able

Correct. Page 56. He also says that his "authority" is now of Skai, not
Mythgarthr.

-Roy

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:58:30 +0000

> I still think of him as being a human with some Skai powers added. 

Abel is (specifically) one of the Einherjar, the chosen slain, who are 
gathered in Valhalla (or the Lady's hall Forsetti) ready for the last fight 
at Ragnarok. 

This status and this state are part of long-established Odinic theology: it 
is not something Wolfe made up.  Abel acts in exactly the way I would, er, 
expect such a being to act. 

It doesn't make him a god, but it does make him an Overcyn. 

 hartshorn, the rather nerdy Odinist