{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4520", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4520, "subject": "TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "messages": 25, "voices": 9, "first": "2005-12-05T07:59:55+00:00", "last": "2005-12-07T08:48:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c5f971$e57073e0$7c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-05T07:59:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A few weeks ago I wrote:\nAt the end of the book, Odin asks Able if he is ready to return to Skai.\nAble is speechless, so Etela speaks for him, \"He's afraid she [Disiri]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "won't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "come with him.\" Odin responds, \"She would not, child.\" [. . .] \"She\ncannot.\"\nHe then goes on to demonstrate that Disiri is nothing but animated debris,\nand tells Able to pick one or the other, Skai or her. Able makes his\nchoice,\ngiving Disiri enough of his blood to render her, apparently, completely\nhuman. Odin disappears, and with him goes Able's chance of ever returning\nto\nSkai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"She cannot\" suggests that there is some sort of immutable, categorical\nprohibition against Disiri and/or her kind that would keep her out of Skai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nAgain, I overlooked the obvious. Able said, when he was speaking to Leort\nabout Disiri and indirectly about his time in Skai, \"it's where she can\nnever go.\" (W, 102) The reason she can never go there is that the Aelf have\nno souls, no \"spirit\". (W, 46) When they die, they die dead, kaput, unlike\nhumans. Those humans who get to Skai have to die, just as Able had to die,\nto get there.\n\nGiven that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell should\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \"pie in the\nsky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as righteous\nliving for an Aelf?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-12-05T08:21:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5f971$e57073e0$7c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell should\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \"pie in the\nsky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as righteous\nliving for an Aelf? \n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWorship isn't primarily a matter of seeking supernatural reward." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051205111414.C46F833FD0@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T11:14:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:59:55 -0800 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nGiven that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no \nhope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the \nhell should\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \n\"pie in the\nsky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as \nrighteous\nliving for an Aelf?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Humans have at least some God-like powers with respect to the Aelf. \nFor example: Toug's healing of . They can \nalso be \"supernaturally\" powerful warriors in Aelfrice - why else \nwould Garsecg & the Aelf groom Able for the role of champion? \n\nIn fact, I suspect that humans are probably God-like to the Aelf in \npretty much the same way that Overcyn are God-like to humans. \n\nThe God-like powers we see in action as far as I can recall are:\n\n- Healing. Toug => Baki (?); Able-as-Overcyn => a bunch of people \nat the end of Wizard.\n\n- Summoning. Able => Aelf (I think this is a human power of Able's, \ngiven Micahel's comments at their first meeting); Michael => \nValfather; Loki => eastern dragon warriors (maybe).\n\n- Weather stuff: Able-as-Overcyn in Mythgathr; can humans do the \nsame kind of thing in Aelfrice?\n\n- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is \nparalleled by Able => Dsiri\n\nThe last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily \nsoul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's \nmetaphysics. With \"divine\" assistance, all creation can rise \nthrough the spheres and meet the One True God. We certainly have \nmultiple indications that Able expects this for himself, and I \nbelieve the ending of Wizard is intended to indicate that it will \nhappen - for Dsiri as well, despite her lower origins. \n\nAs always with Wolfe, Love is the force which propels and drags \neverything higher." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002501c5f999$bc3f1350$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-05T12:45:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell should\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \"pie in\nthe sky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as\nrighteous living for an Aelf?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking supernatural reward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true. It believed that until around the 3rd or 4th century BC (after\nthe books of the Bible were written), the Jews had no clear understanding of\nan afterlife. The Sumerians believed that the afterlife consisted of\nenternal darkness where people only ate mud. As for the Greeks, except for a\nvery few who had become deified, all people went to dark and gloomy Hades." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051205131614.94089.qmail@web34610.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T13:16:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<002501c5f999$bc3f1350$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment.\n\n\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T14:11:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<20051205131614.94089.qmail@web34610.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is\nparalleled by Able => Dsiri\n\nThe last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily\nsoul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's\nmetaphysics. With \"divine\" assistance, all creation can rise\nthrough the spheres and meet the One True God. We certainly have\nmultiple indications that Able expects this for himself, and I\nbelieve the ending of Wizard is intended to indicate that it will\nhappen - for Disiri as well, despite her lower origins.\n\n\nAnd in the Wolfe multiverse, people can lose and regain status. I well \nremember reading in the BotNS where Severian was telling about learning that \npeople could lose their humanity and become monsters and others could regain \ntheir humanity after being monsters. Next step, Overcynhood here we come. \nAnd with Michael telling Able Disiri could come with him, I think, though it \nis not absolutely defined, that you are right. And this does indeed \ndemonstrate now and forever the power of Love.\n\nAnother couple of very bright people wrote:\nGiven that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell should\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \"pie in the\nsky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as righteous\nliving for an Aelf?\n\nand" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment.\n\n\n\nThis is indeed true for some people re the punishment. But in Wolfe's \nuniverse, as we could see in Soldier of Arete (and in dealing with humans in \nthis one), worshiping someone or something else is always advisable. This \nis because someone who does not is apt to \"place himself above all others\" \nand so \"become a monster\" judging all around them and blind to their own \nfaults. (Examples in the last century would include both Uncle Joe in the \nCCCR and little Adolf in Deutschland) So even if we do not \"know\" there are \nothers truely better than we are, we should act that way for our own \nprotection and so that we may continue to become (Joycean from The Dead), to \ngrow and to live. For is it not true that any living thing that ceases \ngrowing commences dying.\n\nBob" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T14:16:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5f971$e57073e0$7c3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 5 2005, at 2:59 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nGiven that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of\neternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell \nshould\nthey worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no \n\"pie in the\nsky when they die\", where's the payoff for whatever passes as \nrighteous\nliving for an Aelf?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why does it follow that they have no hope of eternal reward? For the \nAelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human. \nBaki is explicit about wanting this when she is helping Toug get \naround the castle in the beginning of _Wizard_." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512050944y461d81a6rac7997da2fccf4af@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T17:44:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance. There are those who simply\nseek to serve something they perceive as higher, better,\nor more important than themselves, whether it be a god\nor a nation or a cause.\n\nThere are, of course, those who seek to avoid penalties\nby following the rules of a god or a nation. And there are\nthose who seek to gain rewards by ditto. But -- \"the fact\nthat a thing can be used in illegitimate ways, does not\nillegitimate its legitimate uses.\" Religion, like patriotism,\nis not _necessarily_ about gaining rewards and/or avoiding\npunishment.\n\nThat said: there is definitely the possibility of \"supernatural\nreward\" for inhabitants of Aelfrice who worship inhabitants\nof Mythgarthr. Able proves this when he gives his blood to\nDisiri and so \"raises\" her to humanity and, so, ensouls her.\n\nIn Wolfe's Catholic-Christian terms, this is precisely what the\nChrist does by giving his body and blood in the Eucharist\n-- enables humans to gain some of the nature of the divine.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c5f9cc$0b68f680$153ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-05T18:44:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512050944y461d81a6rac7997da2fccf4af@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\n- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is\nparalleled by Able => Dsiri\n\nThe last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily\nsoul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's\nmetaphysics. With \"divine\" assistance, all creation can rise\nthrough the spheres and meet the One True God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Cliff wrote:\nWhy does it follow that they have no hope of eternal reward? For the\nAelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was not my deduction that the Aelf have no eternal existence; it's a\ntextual given. In the scene where Toug healed Baki, Able said the Aelf were\nlong-lived, and goes on to say: \"Much longer-lived than we are. But\nshort-lived as we are, we're immortal. Our spirits don't die. It's not like\nthat for the Aelf. Dead, they're gone completely.\" (W, 46)\n\nBaki then gives a synopsis of the Seven World creation myth, and Mani\nconcludes with, \"The gods of each world are the people of the next one up.\nThat's Skai for us, and us for Aelfrice.\" (49) The Aelf are in a situation\nmuch like Mani, whose ninth death will mark the absolute end of his\nexistence.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051205190648.15535.qmail@web34615.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T19:06:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512050944y461d81a6rac7997da2fccf4af@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l,\njust an attempt at humor. The same cannot be said of\nyour reply, however. \n\nPaul\n\n\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin\n\n\n\t\t" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512051246p7b0ce963yce307200bab06650@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T20:46:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<20051205190648.15535.qmail@web34615.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 12/5/05, stilskin wrote:\nWorship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a sign of the arrogance I'm speaking of.\n\nI mean the arrogance of assuming that you can make broad\nstatements like that about worship, as if all worshippers worship\nfor the same (rather craven) reason and you, in your superiority,\nhave diagnosed it. It really isn't all that different from seeing a\nblack guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's going to\norder chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and bigory is\nalways arrogant.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T21:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5f9cc$0b68f680$153ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is\nparalleled by Able => Dsiri\n\nThe last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily\nsoul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's\nmetaphysics. With \"divine\" assistance, all creation can rise\nthrough the spheres and meet the One True God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Cliff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does it follow that they have no hope of eternal reward? For the\nAelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was not my deduction that the Aelf have no eternal existence; it's a\ntextual given. In the scene where Toug healed Baki, Able said the Aelf were\nlong-lived, and goes on to say: \"Much longer-lived than we are. But\nshort-lived as we are, we're immortal. Our spirits don't die. It's not like\nthat for the Aelf. Dead, they're gone completely.\" (W, 46)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something happened, though, when Able \"promoted\" Disiri. She attained a sort \nof reality she did not have before. There is not direct statement along the \nlines that she had gained a soul, but it isn't unreasonable to infer this, \nespecially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him on his \nnext assignment.\n\nAnother interesting thing that I am surprised nobody has pointed out: isn't \nit kind of striking that Able can be so bold as to presume that she *would* \ncome with him? This is a major departure from their relationship early in \nthe series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's Skai for us, and us for Aelfrice.\" (49) The Aelf are in a situation\nmuch like Mani, whose ninth death will mark the absolute end of his\nexistence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a bit misleading. Perhaps the \"absolute end\" of his existence *as \nMani*, but recall that Mani is a composite entity. There is in fact an \neternal spirit in Mani that will go its own way; this is not really terribly \nunlike some doctrines of the human soul." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051205214936.78032.qmail@web34613.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T21:49:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512051246p7b0ce963yce307200bab06650@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 12/5/05, stilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a sign of the arrogance I'm speaking of.\n\nI mean the arrogance of assuming that you can make\nbroad\nstatements like that about worship, as if all\nworshippers worship\nfor the same (rather craven) reason and you, in your\nsuperiority,\nhave diagnosed it. It really isn't all that\ndifferent from seeing a\nblack guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's\ngoing to\norder chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and\nbigory is\nalways arrogant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, you're the arrogant one around here. You don't\nknow me from Adam, yet \"in your superiority\" presume\nto diagnose my soul from a flippant remark of nine\nwords in which I conveyed no disrespect for anybody's\nposition or beliefs, just attempted to interject some\nlevity into the discussion. And then, on top of it,\nyou arrogate to yourself the right to judge me and\nattempt to smear me as a racist -- once again failing\nto realize that you are only holding the mirror up to\nyourself. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn 12/5/05, stilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is a sign of the arrogance I'm speaking of.\n\nI mean the arrogance of assuming that you can make\nbroad\nstatements like that about worship, as if all\nworshippers worship\nfor the same (rather craven) reason and you, in your\nsuperiority,\nhave diagnosed it. It really isn't all that\ndifferent from seeing a\nblack guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's\ngoing to\norder chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and\nbigory is\nalways arrogant.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who\nfear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T23:32:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<20051205214936.78032.qmail@web34613.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suggest you take a step back and reflect on this for a second. You threw \nout a one-liner to a mailing list which was either meant to make a point \n(the one that Dan'l criticized) or else contentless. It does not make a lot \nof sense to throw out a contentless one-liner to \"interject\" some levity in \nthe discussion when you know that it's going to offend a sizable portion of \nreaders with any religious inclinations at all. It's like going to a mixed \ngathering with people you don't know and breaking the ice by saying \"How \nmany single mothers does it take to change a light bulb?\" - any even \nremotely observant person will know that this is not likely to lighten the \nmood, even if there happen to be no single mothers at the table.\n\nIn a way I think Dan'l was being generous by assuming that you actually \n*meant* something.\n\nStiltskin said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l, you're the arrogant one around here. You don't\nknow me from Adam, yet \"in your superiority\" presume\nto diagnose my soul from a flippant remark of nine\nwords in which I conveyed no disrespect for anybody's\nposition or beliefs, just attempted to interject some\nlevity into the discussion. And then, on top of it,\nyou arrogate to yourself the right to judge me and\nattempt to smear me as a racist -- once again failing\nto realize that you are only holding the mirror up to\nyourself.\n\n\n\n--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/5/05, stilskin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Don't parade your arrogance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is a sign of the arrogance I'm speaking of.\n\nI mean the arrogance of assuming that you can make\nbroad\nstatements like that about worship, as if all\nworshippers worship\nfor the same (rather craven) reason and you, in your\nsuperiority,\nhave diagnosed it. It really isn't all that\ndifferent from seeing a\nblack guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's\ngoing to\norder chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and\nbigory is\nalways arrogant.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n--\nI do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who\nfear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801c5f9f4$5f749720$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-05T23:34:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Chris\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another interesting thing that I am surprised nobody has pointed out:\nisn't it kind of striking that Able can be so bold as to presume that she\n*would* come with him? This is a major departure from their\nrelationship early in the series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Able's relationship with Disiri changed during the final battle when he\nsummoned and her people to fight and she came. Until he was able to do that,\nMichael implies, he will not be the great knight \"Sir Able of the High\nHeart\" that Michael is seeking.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512051541i5477b996yfd2d77275f1f099@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T23:41:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<20051205214936.78032.qmail@web34613.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1. If the remark was intended as levity, I apologize; there was nothing\nin the context that caused me to think so. In context - as a response\nto this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking\nsupernatural reward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "which was clearly meant seriously, this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural\npunishment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "certainly _looked_ like it was intended at face value. With no\ntone of voice, no emoticons as a poor substitute for tone of\nvoice, no markers at all -- well, humor in email is pretty hard\nto carry off. As I'm sure you're aware.\n\nNonetheless, if it was meant as a humorous remark, I\n_do_ apologize.\n\n2. Nonetheless: I did not \"diagnose your soul.\" I interpreted\na specific remark.\n\nI'll be honest: the remark got under my personal skin. I'm not\n(I hope) a religious bigot; I run with a crowd that includes\natheists, agnostics, Muslims, a Buddhist, several pantheist/\nneopagan/Wiccan types... But I _am_ sensitized to anti-religious\nbigotry, because there's a lot of it in intellectual circles, and\n_especially_ in SF fandom; people who think that if you believe\nin any kind of religion, and especially Christianity, you must be\n mentally defective.\n\nSo I maybe took a remark as meaning more than it did. Again:\nmy bad.\n\n3. But perhaps you can see how, thinking the remark to be\nmeant seriously, I would indeed see \"disrespect for anybody's\nposition or beliefs,\" in it.\n\n4. Whoa. Waitaminnit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then, on top of it, you arrogate to yourself the right to\njudge me and attempt to smear me as a racist -- once\nagain failing to realize that you are only holding the mirror\nup to yourself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I most assuredly did not call you a racist. I drew an analogy\nfrom one kind of bigotry (okay, _perceived_ bigotry) to\nanother. Read it again:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It really isn't all that different from seeing a\nblack guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's\ngoing to order chicken and watermelon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more time I'll apologize: if you can somehow interpret\nthat as smearing you as a racist -- well, then I apologize\nfor that. I did _not_ intend such a smear. I was pointing at\nthe \"all-ism\" (to use a general-semantics term) of bigotry,\nthe way it assumes that \"all\" blacks like chicken, \"all\"\nTrek fans are get-a-lifers, \"all\" religionists are mentally\ndefective, etc.\n\nThere. Several apologies in one note. In return, I hope\nyou can look at what you wrote and see how it might\nhave been interpreted differently from how you intended\nit.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512051544r608ccbc2y7149a3a1c31ce4d6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-05T23:44:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 12/5/05, Chris wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a way I think Dan'l was being generous by assuming that you actually\n*meant* something." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris,\n\nThanks for your support. It's good to see that I'm not the only one who\ncan see what I saw in that remark.\n\nNonetheless, because I did _not_ see the possibility that it was a\nhumorously-intended remark, I was uncharitable to Paul; and even\nif it was intended as I first read it, my initial response was decidedly\nintemperate.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-06T02:32:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Aelf dilemma and \"promotion\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did the bit with Able sacrificing his blood to/for Disiri and then being \nable to take her with him to serve Michael remind anyone else of the \nVelveteen Rabbit? If you're really really good and do your duty no matter \nwhat, you'll become really real. I cried when I first read that story to my \nwife and her face literally glowed. We both lost our breaths and were \ngaping (gasping without the breath?) when I read her the ending of the \nWizard Knight. I find a great deal of Christianity in Gene Wolfe's work and \nam embarrassed at how much more, as my own limited education progresses, I \nfind in rereading. Probably co vered years ago, but I only this year found \nout that, traditionally, Thecla was the name of the female companion who \ntravelled with Paul on his missionary journeys. Ignorance prevents \nunderstanding.\n\nThe other thing is that I am sorry that the misunderstandings about religion \nanger people. I'm sorry now and will continue to mourn the losses to their \nrichness of life of those who do not, by whatever path, have the peace that \npasseth all understanding, who are not travelling a well lighted path as \nopposed to the slog I have spent so much of my life doing. Is it wrong to \nmention Holly Lisle's bit about the devil being allowed access to North \nCarolina, and losing an archdemon to God and the youngest recording angel \nsaying to God that He must be ready for a great celebration after such a \nvictory and God (Michael's boss?) saying, \"No. No. God can never celebrate \nuntil All my children have come home.\" Hmmm, wonder if it's their rejecting \nand attacking of Kulilli that prevents/insures the Aelf do not become \nmore/already have souls as part of the natural progression of \nlife-awareness-apprehension/ambition-pilgrim'sprogress/odyssey-promotion and \nrepeat as long as needed?\n\n\n\nRoy replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is\nparalleled by Able => Dsiri\n\nThe last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily\nsoul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's\nmetaphysics. With \"divine\" assistance, all creation can rise\nthrough the spheres and meet the One True God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Cliff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why does it follow that they have no hope of eternal reward? For the\nAelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was not my deduction that the Aelf have no eternal existence; it's a\ntextual given. In the scene where Toug healed Baki, Able said the Aelf \nwere\nlong-lived, and goes on to say: \"Much longer-lived than we are. But\nshort-lived as we are, we're immortal. Our spirits don't die. It's not \nlike\nthat for the Aelf. Dead, they're gone completely.\" (W, 46)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something happened, though, when Able \"promoted\" Disiri. She attained a sort\nof reality she did not have before. There is not direct statement along the\nlines that she had gained a soul, but it isn't unreasonable to infer this,\nespecially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him on his\nnext assignment.\n\nAnother interesting thing that I am surprised nobody has pointed out: isn't\nit kind of striking that Able can be so bold as to presume that she *would*\ncome with him? This is a major departure from their relationship early in\nthe series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's Skai for us, and us for Aelfrice.\" (49) The Aelf are in a situation\nmuch like Mani, whose ninth death will mark the absolute end of his\nexistence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a bit misleading. Perhaps the \"absolute end\" of his existence *as\nMani*, but recall that Mani is a composite entity. There is in fact an\neternal spirit in Mani that will go its own way; this is not really terribly\nunlike some doctrines of the human soul." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c5fa9d$9690ab00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-06T19:45:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512051544r608ccbc2y7149a3a1c31ce4d6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nSomething happened, though, when Able \"promoted\" Disiri. She attained a\nsort\nof reality she did not have before. There is not direct statement along the\nlines that she had gained a soul, but it isn't unreasonable to infer this,\nespecially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him on his\nnext assignment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've said as much, twice, including the first post in this thread. But\nDisiri's lot is unique; the rest of the Aelf remain soulless. Her uniqueness\nis furthered by the fact that Able was not simply a human god with respect\nto an Aelf, as Toug was to Baki; he was two levels above her. It's unclear\nhow much or whether or not that was a determining factor. After all, that\nwas not the first time Able had given her his blood. But he had been a mere\nhuman when he did it the first time, just as Toug was with Baki. On neither\nof those occasions did the recipient gain a human soul.\n\nIf it is objected that the *quantity* of blood given on those two occasions\nwas insufficient to confer humanity, then the entire concept begins to\nbecome absurd. Is a pint enough? A quart? Toug gave Baki a full drinking\ncup. It healed her, but didn't give her a soul. Why not, if blood is all it\ntook?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000401c5fad6$33bbfaf0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T02:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c5fa9d$9690ab00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it is objected that the *quantity* of blood given on those two occasions\nwas insufficient to confer humanity, then the entire concept begins to\nbecome absurd. Is a pint enough? A quart? Toug gave Baki a full drinking\ncup. It healed her, but didn't give her a soul. Why not, if blood is all it\ntook?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why it should be absurd. However much it took. it was *nearly*\nenough to kill Able. Able didn't know if it would require enough to kill\nhim, and didn't care if it did. If one assumes that actual *blood* is\nrequired and not merely the *ritual* of the offering, then the quantity is\nobviously important. Anyone who has baked a cake knows that quantities are\nimportant for real recipes. A small person would probably not be able to\noffer enough, and an average sized person could not survive having offered\nenough. Reasonably the precise amount of blood required would depend on the\nAelf, but clearly it is so much that even if all humans knew that it could\nbe done (which apparently none of them did except for Able), few would do\nit.\n\nBut it is probable that it is not *merely* the physical act of giving blood\nthat is significant, but also that the blood be freely given. Otherwise, I\npresume, some Aelf would have discovered the process and drained a human\nhost with sufficient blood. I don't think there is any evidence that that\nhas happened.\n\nSo, the quantity matters and so does the ritual.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<496C1A7C-84CC-4563-BF06-C0637E749E5F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-07T02:49:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c5fa9d$9690ab00$c23ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 6 2005, at 2:45 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nChris wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Something happened, though, when Able \"promoted\" Disiri. She \nattained a\nsort\nof reality she did not have before. There is not direct statement \nalong the\nlines that she had gained a soul, but it isn't unreasonable to \ninfer this,\nespecially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him \non his\nnext assignment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've said as much, twice, including the first post in this thread. But\nDisiri's lot is unique; the rest of the Aelf remain soulless. Her \nuniqueness\nis furthered by the fact that Able was not simply a human god with \nrespect\nto an Aelf, as Toug was to Baki; he was two levels above her. It's \nunclear\nhow much or whether or not that was a determining factor. After \nall, that\nwas not the first time Able had given her his blood. But he had \nbeen a mere\nhuman when he did it the first time, just as Toug was with Baki. On \nneither\nof those occasions did the recipient gain a human soul.\n\nIf it is objected that the *quantity* of blood given on those two \noccasions\nwas insufficient to confer humanity, then the entire concept begins to\nbecome absurd. Is a pint enough? A quart? Toug gave Baki a full \ndrinking\ncup. It healed her, but didn't give her a soul. Why not, if blood \nis all it\ntook?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, what are the implications of the \"up-giving\" of blood? It is \nclear that, for a human, the blood of an Aelf has terrific healing \nproperties. But both Baki and Uri were so eager to have Able drink \nfrom them that it must confer some desirable benefit to the Aelf as \nwell. My guess was that it served to bind the human to them somehow, \nbut I don't think I saw any clear evidence that Able was compelled to \ndo anything for Baki." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000901c5fae0$959eae70$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T03:44:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<496C1A7C-84CC-4563-BF06-C0637E749E5F@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, what are the implications of the \"up-giving\" of blood? It is\nclear that, for a human, the blood of an Aelf has terrific healing\nproperties. But both Baki and Uri were so eager to have Able drink\nfrom them that it must confer some desirable benefit to the Aelf as\nwell. My guess was that it served to bind the human to them somehow,\nbut I don't think I saw any clear evidence that Able was compelled to\ndo anything for Baki." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seemed pretty obvious to me. It was a sacrifice. All worshippers desire\nto have their sacrifices accepted by their gods. What is the benefit to\nhumans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar?\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<838D4754-A40D-4E03-8573-D227DE395905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-07T04:18:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000901c5fae0$959eae70$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Dec 6 2005, at 10:44 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nAlso, what are the implications of the \"up-giving\" of blood? It is\nclear that, for a human, the blood of an Aelf has terrific healing\nproperties. But both Baki and Uri were so eager to have Able drink\nfrom them that it must confer some desirable benefit to the Aelf as\nwell. My guess was that it served to bind the human to them somehow,\nbut I don't think I saw any clear evidence that Able was compelled to\ndo anything for Baki." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seemed pretty obvious to me. It was a sacrifice. All \nworshippers desire\nto have their sacrifices accepted by their gods. What is the \nbenefit to\nhumans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that makes some sense. Though humans only do this if there is a \nliving covenant with their gods. Uri and Baki were Garceg's, so they \nhad rejected humanity as their gods. So it seems curious to me.\n\nAlso, they didn't seem to treat the blood-gift as a holy thing. They \nseemed downright lusty and eager to have Able and Toug drink from \nthem. Now, maybe lusty is just how the hot-blooded salamanders were, \nbut I kind of feel undersatisfied by your answer. I feel that the \nAelfs must have been after some kind of interpersonal alchemy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c5fb00$36747220$493ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T07:31:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<838D4754-A40D-4E03-8573-D227DE395905@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cliff quoted Crush and wrote:\nThis seemed pretty obvious to me. It was a sacrifice. All\nworshippers desire\nto have their sacrifices accepted by their gods. What is the\nbenefit to\nhumans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that makes some sense. Though humans only do this if there is a\nliving covenant with their gods. Uri and Baki were Garceg's, so they\nhad rejected humanity as their gods. So it seems curious to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uri and Baki *should* have been gods to Garsecg, but the worship seems to\nhave gone the other way. Btw, if the Aelf had little (if any) hope of\nsanguinary salvation, the dragons were really screwed. If the quantity of\nblood matters for promotion upwards, the Aelf were little and the dragons\nbig. I can't see an Aelf giving a dragon enough blood to matter. Maybe\nthat's why dragons want to eat people (Morcaine), but those people don't\nusually give willingly. Stalemate.\n\nThe people in and around Toug's village were said to perversely worship the\nAelf. The Aelf scared the hell out of them -- scared Ravd, too. Most of the\nAelf who appear in TWK want humans to give them blood, if only \"a drop\".\nGiven the dynamics of the situation, that village should have been a mecca\nfor every Aelf in Mythgarthr. With willing blood givers and greedy\nrecipients, it seems to me that sooner or later some theoretical 'critical\nvolume' of blood ingested by some Aelf must be achieved and a new \"soul\"\nborn -- provided that a finite quantity of blood given willingly by mere\nhumans can do the trick. I remain unconvinced.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-12-07T08:48:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma", "in_reply_to": "<000901c5fae0$959eae70$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes:\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seemed pretty obvious to me. It was a sacrifice. All worshippers desire\nto have their sacrifices accepted by their gods. What is the benefit to\nhumans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWe keep talking about blood, but what about semen? The (female) Aelf are \neven more eager to fuck than to give blood, and presumably semen would be \neven more \"life giving\" than blood, though available in smaller quantities. \nHalf Aelf/human characters are common and don't seem to be made of rubbish \nand illuson. There's more than one sort of uplift, and this one seems \nrather simple/obvious. \n\n - hartshorn " } ] } ] }