Subject: (urth) TWK: The Aelf dilemma

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 07:59:55 +0000

A few weeks ago I wrote:
>At the end of the book, Odin asks Able if he is ready to return to Skai.
>Able is speechless, so Etela speaks for him, "He's afraid she [Disiri]
won't
>come with him." Odin responds, "She would not, child." [. . .] "She
cannot."
>He then goes on to demonstrate that Disiri is nothing but animated debris,
>and tells Able to pick one or the other, Skai or her. Able makes his
choice,
>giving Disiri enough of his blood to render her, apparently, completely
>human. Odin disappears, and with him goes Able's chance of ever returning
to
>Skai.
[snip]
>"She cannot" suggests that there is some sort of immutable, categorical
>prohibition against Disiri and/or her kind that would keep her out of Skai.
[snip]

Again, I overlooked the obvious. Able said, when he was speaking to Leort
about Disiri and indirectly about his time in Skai,  "it's where she can
never go." (W, 102) The reason she can never go there is that the Aelf have
no souls, no "spirit". (W, 46) When they die, they die dead, kaput, unlike
humans. Those humans who get to Skai have to die, just as Able had to die,
to get there.

Given that the Aelf are not spiritually immortal, they have no hope of
eternal reward (still less the denizens of Muspel). So why the hell should
they worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no "pie in the
sky when they die", where's the payoff for whatever passes as righteous
living for an Aelf?

-Roy

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:21:46 +0000

> sky when they die", where's the payoff for whatever passes as righteous

Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking supernatural reward.

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:14:07 +0000

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:59:55 -0800 "Roy C. Lackey" 
>sky when they die", where's the payoff for whatever passes as 

Humans have at least some God-like powers with respect to the Aelf. 
For example: Toug's healing of <whichever one it was>. They can 
also be "supernaturally" powerful warriors in Aelfrice - why else 
would Garsecg & the Aelf groom Able for the role of champion? 

In fact, I suspect that humans are probably God-like to the Aelf in 
pretty much the same way that Overcyn are God-like to humans. 

The God-like powers we see in action as far as I can recall are:

- Healing. Toug => Baki (?); Able-as-Overcyn => a bunch of people 
at the end of Wizard.

- Summoning. Able => Aelf (I think this is a human power of Able's, 
given Micahel's comments at their first meeting); Michael => 
Valfather; Loki => eastern dragon warriors (maybe).

- Weather stuff: Able-as-Overcyn in Mythgathr; can humans do the 
same kind of thing in Aelfrice?

- Promotion: Valfather etc => human heroes; I believe this is 
paralleled by Able => Dsiri

The last surely indicates that Aelf are not eternally & necessarily 
soul-less. That would go against all of my understanding of Wolfe's 
metaphysics. With "divine" assistance, all creation can rise 
through the spheres and meet the One True God. We certainly have 
multiple indications that Able expects this for himself, and I 
believe the ending of Wizard is intended to indicate that it will 
happen - for Dsiri as well, despite her lower origins. 

As always with Wolfe, Love is the force which propels and drags 
everything higher.

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:45:12 +0000

>>they worship humans -- or anyone or anything else? If there's no "pie in
>>the sky when they die", where's the payoff for whatever passes as
>>righteous living for an Aelf?

>Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking supernatural reward.

This is true. It believed that until around the 3rd or 4th century BC (after
the books of the Bible were written), the Jews had no clear understanding of
an afterlife. The Sumerians believed that the afterlife consisted of
enternal darkness where people only ate mud. As for the Greeks, except for a
very few who had become deified, all people went to dark and gloomy Hades.

---

From: stilskin <acronus at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:16:14 +0000

>Worship isn't primarily a matter of seeking

It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural
punishment.

http://www.sff.net/people/stilskin

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From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:11:18 +0000

happen - for Disiri as well, despite her lower origins.

And in the Wolfe multiverse, people can lose and regain status.  I well 
remember reading in the BotNS where Severian was telling about learning that 
people could lose their humanity and become monsters and others could regain 
their humanity after being monsters.  Next step, Overcynhood here we come.  
And with Michael telling Able Disiri could come with him, I think, though it 
is not absolutely defined, that you are right.  And this does indeed 
demonstrate now and forever the power of Love.

Another couple of very bright people wrote:

and

This is indeed true for some people re the punishment.  But in Wolfe's 
universe, as we could see in Soldier of Arete (and in dealing with humans in 
this one), worshiping someone or something else is always advisable.  This 
is because someone who does not is apt to "place himself above all others" 
and so "become a monster" judging all around them and blind to their own 
faults.  (Examples in the last century would include both Uncle Joe in the 
CCCR and little Adolf in Deutschland)  So even if we do not "know" there are 
others truely better than we are, we should act that way for our own 
protection and so that we may continue to become (Joycean from The Dead), to 
grow and to live.  For is it not true that any living thing that ceases 
growing commences dying.

Bob

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From: transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:16:52 +0000

> sky when they die", where's the payoff for whatever passes as  

Why does it follow that they have no hope of eternal reward? For the  
Aelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human.  
Baki is explicit about wanting this when she is helping Toug get  
around the castle in the beginning of _Wizard_.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:44:56 +0000

>It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural

Don't parade your arrogance. There are those who simply
seek to serve something they perceive as higher, better,
or more important than themselves, whether it be a god
or a nation or a cause.

There are, of course, those who seek to avoid penalties
by following the rules of a god or a nation. And there are
those who seek to gain rewards by ditto. But -- "the fact
that a thing can be used in illegitimate ways, does not
illegitimate its legitimate uses." Religion, like patriotism,
is not _necessarily_ about gaining rewards and/or avoiding
punishment.

That said: there is definitely the possibility of "supernatural
reward" for inhabitants of Aelfrice who worship inhabitants
of Mythgarthr. Able proves this when he gives his blood to
Disiri and so "raises" her to humanity and, so, ensouls her.

In Wolfe's Catholic-Christian terms, this is precisely what the
Christ does by giving his body and blood in the Eucharist
-- enables humans to gain some of the nature of the divine.

--Dan'l

--
I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.
                        -- St Teresa of Avila
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:44:43 +0000

Andrew wrote:
>through the spheres and meet the One True God.

>Aelf, the eternal reward would be to gain a soul, to become human.

It was not my deduction that the Aelf have no eternal existence; it's a
textual given. In the scene where Toug healed Baki, Able said the Aelf were
long-lived, and goes on to say: "Much longer-lived than we are. But
short-lived as we are, we're immortal. Our spirits don't die. It's not like
that for the Aelf. Dead, they're gone completely." (W, 46)

Baki then gives a synopsis of the Seven World creation myth, and Mani
concludes with, "The gods of each world are the people of the next one up.
That's Skai for us, and us for Aelfrice." (49) The Aelf are in a situation
much like Mani, whose ninth death will mark the absolute end of his
existence.

-Roy

---

From: stilskin <acronus at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:06:47 +0000

> Don't parade your arrogance. 

I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l,
just an attempt at humor.  The same cannot be said of
your reply, however. 

Paul

		
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---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:46:12 +0000

On 12/5/05, stilskin <acronus at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I fail to see any arrogance in my statement, Dan'l

That is a sign of the arrogance I'm speaking of.

I mean the arrogance of assuming that you can make broad
statements like that about worship, as if all worshippers worship
for the same (rather craven) reason and you, in your superiority,
have diagnosed it. It really isn't all that different from seeing a
black guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's going to
order chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and bigory is
always arrogant.

--Dan'l

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:45:04 +0000

>that for the Aelf. Dead, they're gone completely." (W, 46)

Something happened, though, when Able "promoted" Disiri. She attained a sort 
of reality she did not have before. There is not direct statement along the 
lines that she had gained a soul, but it isn't unreasonable to infer this, 
especially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him on his 
next assignment.

Another interesting thing that I am surprised nobody has pointed out: isn't 
it kind of striking that Able can be so bold as to presume that she *would* 
come with him? This is a major departure from their relationship early in 
the series.

>much like Mani, whose ninth death will mark the absolute end of his

This is a bit misleading. Perhaps the "absolute end" of his existence *as 
Mani*, but recall that Mani is a composite entity. There is in fact an 
eternal spirit in Mani that will go its own way; this is not really terribly 
unlike some doctrines of the human soul.

---

From: stilskin <acronus at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:49:36 +0000

> order chicken and watermelon. It is bigoted, and

Dan'l, you're the arrogant one around here.  You don't
know me from Adam, yet "in your superiority" presume
to diagnose my soul from a flippant remark of nine
words in which I conveyed no disrespect for anybody's
position or beliefs, just attempted to interject some
levity into the discussion.  And then, on top of it,
you arrogate to yourself the right to judge me and
attempt to smear me as a racist -- once again failing
to realize that you are only holding the mirror up to
yourself.

---

From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:32:45 +0000

I suggest you take a step back and reflect on this for a second. You threw 
out a one-liner to a mailing list which was either meant to make a point 
(the one that Dan'l criticized) or else contentless. It does not make a lot 
of sense to throw out a contentless one-liner to "interject" some levity in 
the discussion when you know that it's going to offend a sizable portion of 
readers with any religious inclinations at all. It's like going to a mixed 
gathering with people you don't know and breaking the ice by saying "How 
many single mothers does it take to change a light bulb?" - any even 
remotely observant person will know that this is not likely to lighten the 
mood, even if there happen to be no single mothers at the table.

In a way I think Dan'l was being generous by assuming that you actually 
*meant* something.

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:34:01 +0000

>Another interesting thing that I am surprised nobody has pointed out:
>isn't it kind of striking that Able can be so bold as to presume that she
>*would* come with him? This is a major departure from their
>relationship early in the series.

Yes, Able's relationship with Disiri changed during the final battle when he
summoned and her people to fight and she came. Until he was able to do that,
Michael implies, he will not be the great knight "Sir Able of the High
Heart" that Michael is seeking.

J

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:41:10 +0000

1. If the remark was intended as levity, I apologize; there was nothing
in the context that caused me to think so. In context - as a response

> > > > >It's a matter of seeking to avoid supernatural

certainly _looked_ like it was intended at face value. With no
tone of voice, no emoticons as a poor substitute for tone of
voice, no markers at all -- well, humor in email is pretty hard
to carry off. As I'm sure you're aware.

Nonetheless, if it was meant as a humorous remark, I
_do_ apologize.

2. Nonetheless: I did not "diagnose your soul." I interpreted
a specific remark.

I'll be honest: the remark got under my personal skin. I'm not
(I hope) a religious bigot; I run with a crowd that includes
atheists, agnostics, Muslims, a Buddhist, several pantheist/
neopagan/Wiccan types... But I _am_ sensitized to anti-religious
bigotry, because there's a lot of it in intellectual circles, and
_especially_ in SF fandom; people who think that if you believe
in any kind of religion, and especially Christianity, you must be
 mentally defective.

So I maybe took a remark as meaning more than it did. Again:
my bad.

3. But perhaps you can see how, thinking the remark to be
meant seriously, I would indeed see "disrespect for anybody's
position or beliefs," in it.

4. Whoa. Waitaminnit.

> And then, on top of it, you arrogate to yourself the right to
> judge me and attempt to smear me as a racist -- once
> again failing to realize that you are only holding the mirror
> up to yourself.

I most assuredly did not call you a racist. I drew an analogy
from one kind of bigotry (okay, _perceived_ bigotry) to
another. Read it again:

> > It really isn't all that different from seeing a
> > black guy walk into a restaurant and assuming he's
> > going to order chicken and watermelon.

One more time I'll apologize: if you can somehow interpret
that as smearing you as a racist -- well, then I apologize
for that. I did _not_ intend such a smear. I was pointing at
the "all-ism" (to use a general-semantics term) of bigotry,
the way it assumes that "all" blacks like chicken, "all"
Trek fans are get-a-lifers, "all" religionists are mentally
defective, etc.

There. Several apologies in one note. In return, I hope
you can look at what you wrote and see how it might
have been interpreted differently from how you intended
it.

--Dan'l

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:44:44 +0000

On 12/5/05, Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com> wrote:

...
> In a way I think Dan'l was being generous by assuming that you actually

Chris,

Thanks for your support. It's good to see that I'm not the only one who
can see what I saw in that remark.

Nonetheless, because I did _not_ see the possibility that it was a
humorously-intended remark, I was uncharitable to Paul; and even
if it was intended as I first read it, my initial response was decidedly
intemperate.

--Dan'l

---

From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 02:32:50 +0000

Did the bit with Able sacrificing his blood to/for Disiri and then being 
able to take her with him to serve Michael remind anyone else of the 
Velveteen Rabbit?  If you're really really good and do your duty no matter 
what, you'll become really real.  I cried when I first read that story to my 
wife and her face literally glowed.  We both lost our breaths and were 
gaping (gasping without the breath?) when I read her the ending of the 
Wizard Knight.  I find a great deal of Christianity in Gene Wolfe's work and 
am embarrassed at how much more, as my own limited education progresses, I 
find in rereading.  Probably co vered years ago, but I only this year found 
out that, traditionally, Thecla was the name of the female companion who 
travelled with Paul on his missionary journeys.  Ignorance prevents 
understanding.

The other thing is that I am sorry that the misunderstandings about religion 
anger people.  I'm sorry now and will continue to mourn the losses to their 
richness of life of those who do not, by whatever path, have the peace that 
passeth all understanding, who are not travelling a well lighted path as 
opposed to the slog I have spent so much of my life doing.  Is it wrong to 
mention Holly Lisle's bit about the devil being allowed access to North 
Carolina, and losing an archdemon to God and the youngest recording angel 
saying to God that He must be ready for a great celebration after such a 
victory and God (Michael's boss?) saying, "No. No.  God can never celebrate 
until All my children have come home."  Hmmm, wonder if it's their rejecting 
and attacking of Kulilli that prevents/insures the Aelf do not become 
more/already have souls as part of the natural progression of 
life-awareness-apprehension/ambition-pilgrim'sprogress/odyssey-promotion and 
repeat as long as needed?

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:45:13 +0000

>especially since Michael does allow that Disiri can come with him on his

I've said as much, twice, including the first post in this thread. But
Disiri's lot is unique; the rest of the Aelf remain soulless. Her uniqueness
is furthered by the fact that Able was not simply a human god with respect
to an Aelf, as Toug was to Baki; he was two levels above her. It's unclear
how much or whether or not that was a determining factor. After all, that
was not the first time Able had given her his blood. But he had been a mere
human when he did it the first time, just as Toug was with Baki. On neither
of those occasions did the recipient gain a human soul.

If it is objected that the *quantity* of blood given on those two occasions
was insufficient to confer humanity, then the entire concept begins to
become absurd. Is a pint enough? A quart? Toug gave Baki a full drinking
cup. It healed her, but didn't give her a soul. Why not, if blood is all it
took?

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 02:30:34 +0000

>cup. It healed her, but didn't give her a soul. Why not, if blood is all it

I don't see why it should be absurd. However much it took. it was *nearly*
enough to kill Able. Able didn't know if it would require enough to kill
him, and didn't care if it did. If one assumes that actual *blood* is
required and not merely the *ritual* of the offering, then the quantity is
obviously important. Anyone who has baked a cake knows that quantities are
important for real recipes. A small person would probably not be able to
offer enough, and an average sized person could not survive having offered
enough. Reasonably the precise amount of blood required would depend on the
Aelf, but clearly it is so much that even if all humans knew that it could
be done (which apparently none of them did except for Able), few would do
it.

But it is probable that it is not *merely* the physical act of giving blood
that is significant, but also that the blood be freely given. Otherwise, I
presume, some Aelf would have discovered the process and drained a human
host with sufficient blood. I don't think there is any evidence that that
has happened.

So, the quantity matters and so does the ritual.

J

---

From: transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 02:49:34 +0000

On Dec 6 2005, at 2:45 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> Chris wrote:
>> Something happened, though, when Able "promoted" Disiri. She  
>> attained a
> sort

Also, what are the implications of the "up-giving" of blood? It is  
clear that, for a human, the blood of an Aelf has terrific healing  
properties. But both Baki and Uri were so eager to have Able drink  
from them that it must confer some desirable benefit to the Aelf as  
well. My guess was that it served to bind the human to them somehow,  
but I don't think I saw any clear evidence that Able was compelled to  
do anything for Baki.

---

From: James Wynn <thewynns at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 03:44:31 +0000

>but I don't think I saw any clear evidence that Able was compelled to

This seemed pretty obvious to me. It was a sacrifice. All worshippers desire
to have their sacrifices accepted by their gods. What is the benefit to
humans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar?

J

---

From: transentient <transentient at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 04:18:56 +0000

> humans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar?

Well, that makes some sense. Though humans only do this if there is a  
living covenant with their gods. Uri and Baki were Garceg's, so they  
had rejected humanity as their gods. So it seems curious to me.

Also, they didn't seem to treat the blood-gift as a holy thing. They  
seemed downright lusty and eager to have Able and Toug drink from  
them. Now, maybe lusty is just how the hot-blooded salamanders were,  
but I kind of feel undersatisfied by your answer. I feel that the  
Aelfs must have been after some kind of interpersonal alchemy.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:31:12 +0000

>had rejected humanity as their gods. So it seems curious to me.

Uri and Baki *should* have been gods to Garsecg, but the worship seems to
have gone the other way. Btw, if the Aelf had little (if any) hope of
sanguinary salvation, the dragons were really screwed. If the quantity of
blood matters for promotion upwards, the Aelf were little and the dragons
big. I can't see an Aelf giving a dragon enough blood to matter. Maybe
that's why dragons want to eat people (Morcaine), but those people don't
usually give willingly. Stalemate.

The people in and around Toug's village were said to perversely worship the
Aelf. The Aelf scared the hell out of them -- scared Ravd, too. Most of the
Aelf who appear in TWK want humans to give them blood, if only "a drop".
Given the dynamics of the situation, that village should have been a mecca
for every Aelf in Mythgarthr. With willing blood givers and greedy
recipients, it seems to me that sooner or later some theoretical 'critical
volume' of blood ingested by some Aelf must be achieved and a new "soul"
born -- provided that a finite quantity of blood given willingly by mere
humans can do the trick. I remain unconvinced.

-Roy

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:48:03 +0000

James Wynn writes:
.
> humans to chop up an ox and burn it on an altar? 

We keep talking about blood, but what about semen?   The (female) Aelf are 
even more eager to fuck than to give blood, and presumably semen would be 
even more "life giving" than blood, though available in smaller quantities.  
Half Aelf/human characters are common and don't seem to be made of rubbish 
and illuson.  There's more than one sort of uplift, and this one seems 
rather simple/obvious. 

 - hartshorn