{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4523", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4523, "subject": "TWK: Able's future", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2005-12-07T05:09:26+00:00", "last": "2005-12-10T09:22:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<002201c5faec$69d63900$963ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T05:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Able's future", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last month I wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And, at the end, even though Able turned his back on Skai, it seems he\nwill be given a position in a still higher realm than Skai;<< [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That can't be right. There's no place up for him to go but Kleos. Able's\nassociation with Michael is not enough to get him to Kleos. Able wrote from\nAelfrice, where he saw the events in Mythgarthr play out across the sky. He\nmentioned a future time when he will return to Mythgarthr. The \"great lord\"\nmentioned by Michael as being in need of a champion is not God, who has no\nneed of one, least of all in Kleos. We are told that there are other worlds\non all the levels except the first and last. It may be that the \"great lord\"\nin need of a champion is on another world on the fourth level, a world other\nthan Dream or Mythgarthr. Maybe our own. It may even be that the \"great\nlord\" is on a world on the third level other than the Valfather's. That\nmight be the explanation for the apparent mixing of unrelated Celtic\n(Gawain) and Norse traditions that Able seems to have experienced, a\ncross-contamination of worlds in the same way that he went from America to\nMythgarthr.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c5faef$f5930d30$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T05:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Able's future", "in_reply_to": "<002201c5faec$69d63900$963ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That can't be right. There's no place up for him to go but Kleos. Able's\nassociation with Michael is not enough to get him to Kleos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...maybe. But why would Michael seek Able's help for a lord in Skai?\nMichael went seeking Able--seeking an Able that didn't exist when Able first\nmet him. The idea of proceeding ever upwards seems to be the overall theme\nof the novel. Michael is only the second person from Kleos (at best) that\nAble has met. Is it surprising that Able would be a hero in Kleos? Look how\nquickly Able seems to have risen to prominence in Skai.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001101c5fb70$36d0f520$653ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-07T20:52:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Able's future", "in_reply_to": "<001601c5faef$f5930d30$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush quoted and wrote:\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That can't be right. There's no place up for him to go but Kleos. Able's\nassociation with Michael is not enough to get him to Kleos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm...maybe. But why would Michael seek Able's help for a lord in Skai?\nMichael went seeking Able--seeking an Able that didn't exist when Able\nfirst\nmet him. The idea of proceeding ever upwards seems to be the overall theme\nof the novel. Michael is only the second person from Kleos (at best) that\nAble has met. Is it surprising that Able would be a hero in Kleos? Look how\nquickly Able seems to have risen to prominence in Skai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would surprise the hell out of me for Able to even get to Kleos, much\nless be a hero there. As hartshorn said in another context, Able is a knight\nnot a saint. Just who would a crude dude like Able fight in God's backyard?\nKleos was a place made by God as a reward for the \"servants\" he had created.\n(W, 46) (I think those \"servants\" are what are usually called angels.)\n\nBecause anything apart from God is by definition less than perfect, those\nservants were unhappy with that imperfection in Kleos. They wanted to cast\nout as much of that imperfection as they could. God created a place for them\nto put it, which was Skai. The imperfection was embodied in the form of the\ngiant Ymir. \"Some servants of the Highest God surrendered their places in\nKleos and went down to kill him. They did, but they could never go back.\"\n(ibid.) Some hold that the Valfather was one of those who descended and\ncould never return. (48) (Echoed by Able leaving Skai?) The farther removed\nfrom God's perfection, the worse the corruption, descending by degrees to\nevil.\n\nAble was no angel, and I don't think he ever would/could be. I don't think\nit's even theoretically possible for a post-creation being to attain the\nstatus of a pre-creation being. But this begins to stray into religious\nterritory it's probably better not to traverse.\n\nI don't think Able was all that prominent in Skai; clearly he was nowhere\nnear as powerful as the Valfather and his immediate family, and/or the other\noriginal \"servants\" of God.\n\nMichael didn't meet Able in Kleos, so clearly he had come down from his high\nplace. Presumably he was able to return, unlike his brother servants/angels\nwho went down to Skai. What's the difference?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051210041229.23368.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T04:12:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Able's future", "in_reply_to": "<001101c5fb70$36d0f520$653ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nMichael didn't meet Able in Kleos, so clearly he had\ncome down from his high\nplace. Presumably he was able to return, unlike his\nbrother servants/angels\nwho went down to Skai. What's the difference?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Angels are by definition messengers of God, so it only\nmakes sense that Michael can travel wherever he needs\nto do his duties. Able is special because he is human.\n According to Christian belief, we are God's special\nchildren and this whole setup is for our benefit,\nthough we are unworthy of it. At least that's my\nunderstanding. I'm not sure I buy that in the \"real\nworld\" but for the purpose of story that's the\nsituation. I think.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-12-10T09:22:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: Able's future", "in_reply_to": "<20051210041229.23368.qmail@web32407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "don doggett writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " According to Christian belief, we are God's special\nchildren and this whole setup is for our benefit,\nthough we are unworthy of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nI don't believe this is the case in any of Wolfe's fictional universes. \nHumans may be special, but so are the Neighbours. Everyone is special. \n\nI suspect the thing that bound the descended angels to Skai was probably the \nslaying of Ymir and the shedding of Ymir's blood." } ] } ] }