Osterlings
The Urth list — 9 messages, 6 voices, 07 Dec 2005
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4525
Dan Rabin07 Dec 2005, 16:54
All the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is mentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation for their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?
-- Dan Rabin
David Duffy08 Dec 2005, 10:34
↳ in reply to Dan Rabin
Stephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying quality:
"They were a shade of brown that was darker than black" appears on P 530 of the Morrow hardback.
David Duffy.
David Duffy08 Dec 2005, 10:50
↳ in reply to Dan Rabin
4 quoted lines
On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Dan Rabin wrote:
All the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is mentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation for their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?
-- Dan Rabin
Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get spiritual/magical power. Traditionally, you want to eat the bravest of your enemies, IIRC. Coming back to the Aelf, they are magical and perform magic which humans don't, so even though they are lower, consuming their blood presumably has practical advantages. Ordinary wizards need the aid of "lower" elementals to do work, as Able does in the first half of the story. In Castleview and here, Faery is conflated with death, so the Aelf want blood to become alive.
David Duffy.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes08 Dec 2005, 17:30
↳ in reply to David Duffy
Dan R asks if anybody would
2 quoted lines · depth 2
care to speculate as to how the
dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?
And David D responds
1 quoted line
Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get spiritual/magical power.
Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as "People who eat other people to become more human." This is indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be a series of variations upon and especially perversions of the Eucharist.
--Dan'l
David Duffy09 Dec 2005, 04:57
↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
9 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
Dan R asks if anybody would
care to speculate as to how the
dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?
And David D responds
Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get spiritual/magical power.
Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as "People who eat other people to become more human." This is indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be a series of variations upon and especially perversions of the Eucharist.
--Dan'l
This is not that inconsistent an interpretation. So what's so good about being human ;)? Presumably a soul, but how much do you need, and are there lesser benefits?
David Duffy.
PS A reminder to reread the list of names!
don doggett10 Dec 2005, 04:04
↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
14 quoted lines
--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:
Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of
names in TK as
"People who eat other people to become more human."
This is
indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern
in Wolfe of
devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume
to be
a series of variations upon and especially
perversions of the
Eucharist.
--Dan'l
I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and,
farther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek
to devour the commonwealth. This is what fascinates me
about WK. I can see the Hierodules and the Neighbors
in the Overcyns. Severian in Able. Ymar in Arthur.
Erebus and Abaia in the Giants. I don't know if it's a
skeleton key, but GW certainly has his obsessions.
Don
Jeff Wilson10 Dec 2005, 05:02
↳ in reply to David Duffy
4 quoted lines
David Duffy wrote:
Stephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying quality:
"They were a shade of brown that was darker than black" appears on P 530 of the Morrow hardback.
Not necessarily a Wolfe-ism. I recall from a pre-BOTNS Reader's Digest article, a bright but mentally ill boy incessantly asking his caregiver if there was a color darker than black, so he could paint his bedroom that color, then add some black trim to brighten up the room.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes10 Dec 2005, 21:00
↳ in reply to don doggett
3 quoted lines
I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and,
farther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek
to devour the commonwealth.
Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer
made from its glands. This is an extremely common
theme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher
(Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a
perversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of
the Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway
(some of the inhumi, Kypris); falling from your station
to something lower (the beastmen in NS, apparently
the Osterlings); etc. A lot of it has to do with (a) who
you serve (b) why you serve them and (c) what you
eat.
And there's bits of it in other books, notably 5HC...
--Dan'l
↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Dan'l said:
7 quoted lines
Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer
made from its glands. This is an extremely common
theme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher
(Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a
perversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of
the Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway
(some of the inhumi, Kypris);
I am unsure whether Typhon falls cleanly into the category of a perversion or having been "raised anyway", but I think there is a distinct element of both in there. Pas, to all appearances, is far more benevolent than Typhon ever was; he tried to play a role and it ended up (at least partially) defining him.
And there is a distinction to be made between merely "becoming" by some sort of osmosis, and active imitation (a very Christian theme, the way Wolfe generally uses it). Severian displays little of the latter (except on certain other levels which haven't been mentioned) and a striking amount of the former. Silk and Able, on the other hand, are mostly the latter, and Silkhorn would perhaps be a mix of both.
The inhumi are particularly interesting in this framework because it seems they cannot become more human by imitation alone. And this may be entirely beside the point, but when I think of the Osterlings becoming "more human" I cannot help but think of what happened when the inhumi became "more human" - the influence thus exerted is not necessarily going to be a civilizing or morally uplifting one.
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