{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4525", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4525, "subject": "Osterlings", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2005-12-07T16:54:28+00:00", "last": "2005-12-10T22:26:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Rabin", "address": "wolfe-lists at danrabin.com" }, "date": "2005-12-07T16:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is \nmentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation \nfor their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the \ndietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?\n\n -- Dan Rabin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-12-08T10:34:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) _The System of the World_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying\nquality:\n\n\"They were a shade of brown that was darker than black\" appears on P 530\nof the Morrow hardback.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-12-08T10:50:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Dan Rabin wrote:\nAll the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is\nmentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation\nfor their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the\ndietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?\n\n -- Dan Rabin" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get\nspiritual/magical power. Traditionally, you want to eat the bravest of\nyour enemies, IIRC. Coming back to the Aelf, they are magical and perform\nmagic which humans don't, so even though they are lower, consuming their\nblood presumably has practical advantages. Ordinary wizards need the aid\nof \"lower\" elementals to do work, as Able does in the first half of the\nstory. In _Castleview_ and here, Faery is conflated with death, so the\nAelf want blood to become alive.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512080930v76f50040kbdcb9ccaf2151001@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-08T17:30:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan R asks if anybody would" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "care to speculate as to how the\ndietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And David D responds" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get\nspiritual/magical power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as\n\"People who eat other people to become more human.\" This is\nindeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of\ndevouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be\na series of variations upon and especially perversions of the\nEucharist.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2005-12-09T04:57:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512080930v76f50040kbdcb9ccaf2151001@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDan R asks if anybody would" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "care to speculate as to how the\ndietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And David D responds" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get\nspiritual/magical power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as\n\"People who eat other people to become more human.\" This is\nindeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of\ndevouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be\na series of variations upon and especially perversions of the\nEucharist.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not that inconsistent an interpretation. So what's so good about\nbeing human ;)? Presumably a soul, but how much do you need, and are\nthere lesser benefits?\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\nPS A reminder to reread the list of names!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051210040458.17255.qmail@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T04:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512080930v76f50040kbdcb9ccaf2151001@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of\nnames in TK as\n\"People who eat other people to become more human.\"\nThis is\nindeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern\nin Wolfe of\ndevouring someone to become him/her, which I presume\nto be\na series of variations upon and especially\nperversions of the\nEucharist.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and,\nfarther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek\nto devour the commonwealth. This is what fascinates me\nabout WK. I can see the Hierodules and the Neighbors\nin the Overcyns. Severian in Able. Ymar in Arthur.\nErebus and Abaia in the Giants. I don't know if it's a\nskeleton key, but GW certainly has his obsessions.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "<439A616F.1090707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T05:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) _The System of the World_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nStephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying\nquality:\n\n\"They were a shade of brown that was darker than black\" appears on P 530\nof the Morrow hardback." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily a Wolfe-ism. I recall from a pre-BOTNS Reader's Digest \narticle, a bright but mentally ill boy incessantly asking his caregiver \nif there was a color darker than black, so he could paint his bedroom \nthat color, then add some black trim to brighten up the room." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512101300y66ebff87va9149b42fc258d8f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T21:00:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "<20051210040458.17255.qmail@web32415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and,\nfarther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek\nto devour the commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer\nmade from its glands. This is an _extremely_ common\ntheme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher\n(Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a\nperversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of\nthe Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway\n(some of the inhumi, Kypris); falling from your station\nto something lower (the beastmen in NS, apparently\nthe Osterlings); etc. A lot of it has to do with (a) who\nyou serve (b) why you serve them and (c) what you\neat.\n\nAnd there's bits of it in other books, notably 5HC...\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T22:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Osterlings", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370512101300y66ebff87va9149b42fc258d8f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer\nmade from its glands. This is an _extremely_ common\ntheme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher\n(Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a\nperversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of\nthe Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway\n(some of the inhumi, Kypris);" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am unsure whether Typhon falls cleanly into the category of a perversion \nor having been \"raised anyway\", but I think there is a distinct element of \nboth in there. Pas, to all appearances, is far more benevolent than Typhon \never was; he tried to play a role and it ended up (at least partially) \ndefining him.\n\nAnd there is a distinction to be made between merely \"becoming\" by some sort \nof osmosis, and active imitation (a very Christian theme, the way Wolfe \ngenerally uses it). Severian displays little of the latter (except on \ncertain other levels which haven't been mentioned) and a striking amount of \nthe former. Silk and Able, on the other hand, are mostly the latter, and \nSilkhorn would perhaps be a mix of both.\n\nThe inhumi are particularly interesting in this framework because it seems \nthey *cannot* become more human by imitation alone. And this may be entirely \nbeside the point, but when I think of the Osterlings becoming \"more human\" I \ncannot help but think of what happened when the inhumi became \"more human\" - \nthe influence thus exerted is not necessarily going to be a civilizing or \nmorally uplifting one." } ] } ] }