# Osterlings *The Urth list — 9 messages, 6 voices, 07 Dec 2005* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dan Rabin *07 Dec 2005, 16:54* All the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is mentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation for their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme? -- Dan Rabin --- ### David Duffy *08 Dec 2005, 10:34 · in reply to Dan Rabin* Stephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying quality: "They were a shade of brown that was darker than black" appears on P 530 of the Morrow hardback. David Duffy. --- ### David Duffy *08 Dec 2005, 10:50 · in reply to Dan Rabin* > On Wed, 7 Dec 2005, Dan Rabin wrote: > All the discussion of ingestion of blood reminds me that nobody is > mentioning the Osterlings, who seem to have an inhumu-like motivation > for their raids. Would anybody care to speculate as to how the > dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme? > > -- Dan Rabin Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get spiritual/magical power. Traditionally, you want to eat the bravest of your enemies, IIRC. Coming back to the Aelf, they are magical and perform magic which humans don't, so even though they are lower, consuming their blood presumably has practical advantages. Ordinary wizards need the aid of "lower" elementals to do work, as Able does in the first half of the story. In _Castleview_ and here, Faery is conflated with death, so the Aelf want blood to become alive. David Duffy. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *08 Dec 2005, 17:30 · in reply to David Duffy* Dan R asks if anybody would >> care to speculate as to how the >> dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme? And David D responds > Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get > spiritual/magical power. Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as "People who eat other people to become more human." This is indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be a series of variations upon and especially perversions of the Eucharist. --Dan'l ``` I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him. -- St Teresa of Avila http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer ``` --- ### David Duffy *09 Dec 2005, 04:57 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Dan R asks if anybody would >>> care to speculate as to how the >>> dietary habits of the Osterlings figure into the grand scheme? > And David D responds >> Probably for the same reason as historical anthropophagy, to get >> spiritual/magical power. > Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of names in TK as > "People who eat other people to become more human." This is > indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern in Wolfe of > devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume to be > a series of variations upon and especially perversions of the > Eucharist. > > --Dan'l This is not that inconsistent an interpretation. So what's so good about being human ;)? Presumably a soul, but how much do you need, and are there lesser benefits? David Duffy. PS A reminder to reread the list of names! --- ### don doggett *10 Dec 2005, 04:04 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > --- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Uh, no. The Osterlings are described in the list of > names in TK as > "People who eat other people to become more human." > This is > indeed inhumu-like. This is part of a larger pattern > in Wolfe of > devouring someone to become him/her, which I presume > to be > a series of variations upon and especially > perversions of the > Eucharist. > > --Dan'l I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and, farther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek to devour the commonwealth. This is what fascinates me about WK. I can see the Hierodules and the Neighbors in the Overcyns. Severian in Able. Ymar in Arthur. Erebus and Abaia in the Giants. I don't know if it's a skeleton key, but GW certainly has his obsessions. Don --- ### Jeff Wilson *10 Dec 2005, 05:02 · in reply to David Duffy* > David Duffy wrote: > Stephenson's book is full of SFnal references and jokes of varying > quality: > > "They were a shade of brown that was darker than black" appears on P 530 > of the Morrow hardback. Not necessarily a Wolfe-ism. I recall from a pre-BOTNS Reader's Digest article, a bright but mentally ill boy incessantly asking his caregiver if there was a color darker than black, so he could paint his bedroom that color, then add some black trim to brighten up the room. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *10 Dec 2005, 21:00 · in reply to don doggett* > I agree. The Osterlings are analogs of the inhumi and, > farther back, of the Ascians in the NS books who seek > to devour the commonwealth. Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer made from its glands. This is an _extremely_ common theme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher (Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a perversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of the Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway (some of the inhumi, Kypris); falling from your station to something lower (the beastmen in NS, apparently the Osterlings); etc. A lot of it has to do with (a) who you serve (b) why you serve them and (c) what you eat. And there's bits of it in other books, notably 5HC... --Dan'l ``` I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him. -- St Teresa of Avila http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer ``` --- ### Chris *10 Dec 2005, 22:26 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Dan'l said: > Not to mention the alzabo and those who use the elixer > made from its glands. This is an _extremely_ common > theme in Wolfe: rising to become something higher > (Severian, Able); seeking to rise but becoming a > perversion of the higher thing (Typhon, the Gods of > the Whorl); doing so but then being raised anyway > (some of the inhumi, Kypris); I am unsure whether Typhon falls cleanly into the category of a perversion or having been "raised anyway", but I think there is a distinct element of both in there. Pas, to all appearances, is far more benevolent than Typhon ever was; he tried to play a role and it ended up (at least partially) defining him. And there is a distinction to be made between merely "becoming" by some sort of osmosis, and active imitation (a very Christian theme, the way Wolfe generally uses it). Severian displays little of the latter (except on certain other levels which haven't been mentioned) and a striking amount of the former. Silk and Able, on the other hand, are mostly the latter, and Silkhorn would perhaps be a mix of both. The inhumi are particularly interesting in this framework because it seems they *cannot* become more human by imitation alone. And this may be entirely beside the point, but when I think of the Osterlings becoming "more human" I cannot help but think of what happened when the inhumi became "more human" - the influence thus exerted is not necessarily going to be a civilizing or morally uplifting one. ---