{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4526", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4526, "subject": "TWK: 7 world cosmology", "messages": 19, "voices": 10, "first": "2005-12-10T09:57:39+00:00", "last": "2006-02-04T03:40:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000a01c5fd70$2b785cc0$dc3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-10T09:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my previous post I forgot to mention that the \"servants\" of God in Kleos\nhad his ear, but those who went down to Skai to kill Ymir no longer had it.\nThis forced the latter to petition the former to intercede for them (W, 47),\nthus establishing the pattern of praying, sacrificing and otherwise\nworshiping the inhabitants of the next higher level for all the remaining\nlower levels.\n\nHumans are native to the fourth level, Mythgarthr, having been \"raised\" up\nfrom animals by God. Scattered references in the story make it clear that\nArt came from modern America, in our world. Our world can exist only in one\nof the several worlds said to be on the fourth level. Proper religious\npractice is defined in the story as the devotions due the collective\ninhabitants of the next higher level by the inhabitants of the level\nimmediately below it. Stated bluntly: humans are supposed to worship the\ninhabitants of Skai.\n\nWe all know there is a wide and deep religious underpinning to Wolfe's work.\nI don't recall any overt, specific Judeo-Christian references in TWK, but\nit's in the background; certainly it's in Art's background. The first time I\nread TWK and realized the way people were prescribed to worship, I fully\nexpected the hammer to fall, sooner or later; that people would be set\nstraight before the story was done. It never happened, and I don't\nunderstand why it didn't.\n\nWhy did Wolfe write a story in which people are expected to pray to and\nworship Norse gods, in direct violation of the First Commandment, beings to\nwhom God had specifically turned a deaf ear? In which a man, hero or not,\nbecomes an object of worship for humans?\n\nTo say that it is \"just a story\" isn't good enough, not for Wolfe. He could\nhave left the High God out of this cosmology and avoided the issue, maybe.\nThen it would have been \"just a story\". There were \"gods\" in the Sun cycle,\ntoo, but God was always around the corner, never out of touch. I recall no\ninstances of prayer, not even an oath, directed to God in TWK. The concept\ndoesn't even seem to exist, and there are two levels of beings between man\nand God. Am I missing something?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15827904692.20051210145053@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2005-12-10T13:50:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5fd70$2b785cc0$dc3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saturday, December 10, 2005, 10:57:39 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nRCL> In my previous post I forgot to mention that the \"servants\" of God in Kleos\nRCL> had his ear, but those who went down to Skai to kill Ymir no longer had it.\nRCL> This forced the latter to petition the former to intercede for them (W, 47),\nRCL> thus establishing the pattern of praying, sacrificing and otherwise\nRCL> worshiping the inhabitants of the next higher level for all the remaining\nRCL> lower levels.\n\nRCL> Humans are native to the fourth level, Mythgarthr, having been \"raised\" up\nRCL> from animals by God. Scattered references in the story make it clear that\nRCL> Art came from modern America, in our world. Our world can exist only in one\nRCL> of the several worlds said to be on the fourth level. Proper religious\nRCL> practice is defined in the story as the devotions due the collective\nRCL> inhabitants of the next higher level by the inhabitants of the level\nRCL> immediately below it. Stated bluntly: humans are supposed to worship the\nRCL> inhabitants of Skai.\n\nRCL> We all know there is a wide and deep religious underpinning to Wolfe's work.\nRCL> I don't recall any overt, specific Judeo-Christian references in TWK, but\nRCL> it's in the background; certainly it's in Art's background. The first time I\nRCL> read TWK and realized the way people were prescribed to worship, I fully\nRCL> expected the hammer to fall, sooner or later; that people would be set\nRCL> straight before the story was done. It never happened, and I don't\nRCL> understand why it didn't.\n\nRCL> Why did Wolfe write a story in which people are expected to pray to and\nRCL> worship Norse gods, in direct violation of the First Commandment, beings to\nRCL> whom God had specifically turned a deaf ear? In which a man, hero or not,\nRCL> becomes an object of worship for humans?\n\nRCL> To say that it is \"just a story\" isn't good enough, not for Wolfe. He could\nRCL> have left the High God out of this cosmology and avoided the issue, maybe.\nRCL> Then it would have been \"just a story\". There were \"gods\" in the Sun cycle,\nRCL> too, but God was always around the corner, never out of touch. I recall no\nRCL> instances of prayer, not even an oath, directed to God in TWK. The concept\nRCL> doesn't even seem to exist, and there are two levels of beings between man\nRCL> and God. Am I missing something?\n\nRCL> -Roy\n\nWhy do you expect all Wolfe's books to be Christian? When pagan gods\ndo fit into Christianity? This is the best\northodox neoplatonism. According to it, any contact between two levels\nneeds mediators.\n\nThat belief influenced also Christianity, especially Pseudo-Dionysius\nhierarchy of angels. (See eg Annunciation. In pseudodionysian scheme\narchangels are the second lowest of 9 hierarchies of angels.) Those\ninfluences are stronger in Catholicism and Orthodoxy than in\nprotestant Churches.\n\nOf course, in Christianity direct contact between\nman and God does happen - but very seldom. Only regular contact\nthat happens through Christ - and this is greatest miracle in the whole Christian theology.\n\nMen can pray to God, but to whom does God answer Himself?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Stanis?aw Bocian\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nSzukasz pracy? Szukamy pracownikow: dziennikarzy, webmasterow, \nspecjalisty ds. badan, promotion managera, administratorow baz danych, \nprogramistow Windows i wielu innych! >>> http://link.interia.pl/f18e6" } ] }, { "message_id": "<200512101421.jBAELI5A073735@mailserver3.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T14:21:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<15827904692.20051210145053@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:57:39 -0800 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nIn my previous post I forgot to mention that the \"servants\" of God " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in Kleos\nhad his ear, but those who went down to Skai to kill Ymir no \nlonger had it.\nThis forced the latter to petition the former to intercede for \nthem (W, 47),\nthus establishing the pattern of praying, sacrificing and \notherwise\nworshiping the inhabitants of the next higher level for all the \nremaining\nlower levels.\n\nHumans are native to the fourth level, Mythgarthr, having been \n\"raised\" up\nfrom animals by God. Scattered references in the story make it \nclear that\nArt came from modern America, in our world. Our world can exist \nonly in one\nof the several worlds said to be on the fourth level. Proper \nreligious\npractice is defined in the story as the devotions due the \ncollective\ninhabitants of the next higher level by the inhabitants of the \nlevel\nimmediately below it. Stated bluntly: humans are supposed to \nworship the\ninhabitants of Skai.\n\nWe all know there is a wide and deep religious underpinning to \nWolfe's work.\nI don't recall any overt, specific Judeo-Christian references in \nTWK, but\nit's in the background; certainly it's in Art's background. The \nfirst time I\nread TWK and realized the way people were prescribed to worship, I " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "fully\nexpected the hammer to fall, sooner or later; that people would be " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "set\nstraight before the story was done. It never happened, and I don't\nunderstand why it didn't.\n\nWhy did Wolfe write a story in which people are expected to pray \nto and\nworship Norse gods, in direct violation of the First Commandment, \nbeings to\nwhom God had specifically turned a deaf ear? In which a man, hero \nor not,\nbecomes an object of worship for humans?\n\nTo say that it is \"just a story\" isn't good enough, not for Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He could\nhave left the High God out of this cosmology and avoided the \nissue, maybe.\nThen it would have been \"just a story\". There were \"gods\" in the \nSun cycle,\ntoo, but God was always around the corner, never out of touch. I \nrecall no\ninstances of prayer, not even an oath, directed to God in TWK. The " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "concept\ndoesn't even seem to exist, and there are two levels of beings \nbetween man\nand God. Am I missing something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This vaguely Zoroastrian or Gnostic or whatever hierarchy of powers \npermeates Wolfe's fantasy works. I can't see it as anything but \ndeeply, deeply unorthodox. These beings are not just members of a \nhierarchy of angels; they are, in fact, gods - imperfect, perhaps \nwayward, but neverthless beings who stand above humans. \n\nIf they have strayed, they are to be \"respected but not \nworshipped\", as SilkHorn says of the Mother. If they haven't, they \nare to be in fact worshipped - Michael, Art himself after his \nreturn from Skai (excpet that he is travelling \"incognito\").\n\nSimilarly unorthodox, his God-heroes: Severian is, in fact, an \nenormously powerful God. Latro is at least an avatar of Mars & I \nwouldn't be surpirsed to find in the concluding works that he is \nsomething even higher than that. We have a large number of hints \nthat Art is at least an avatar of Thor, in some sense the son of \nthe Valfather, and (especially with the conclusion) perhaps also \nsomething higher.\n\nI find it impossible not to read them as Jesus-types within a \nfundamentally Arian (and Adoptionist) setting. They are creatures, \nthey come after the Highest God, they may in fact be chosen from \nthe ranks of mortals, but they develop into a godhood with a \ntrajectory of development which will in the end bring them to the \nEmpyrean, as very high gods.\n\nI don't read Wolfe this way because it's the way I happen to \nbelieve - fundamentally, as metaphysics, I actually think it's kind \nof silly. But I think it must be Wolfe's belief, because if not, \nwhy write these stories in this way?\n\nOne \"heresy\" which Wolfe is not \"guilty\" of: Manicheanism. There is \nno independent God of Evil. Evil is just a mistake, a separation \nfrom God, not a positive thing in its own right. The Most Low God \nin TWK is the closest to a real Lord of Darkness, and his claim \nthat God is Janus-faced is the closest thing to Manicheanism I can \nrecall in Wolfe. But I think it's reasonably clear that this being \nis just the dross cast off by God - a mere creature. (And he flees \nArt, and Art \"harrows\" his realm - once again, a Wolfean \nArian/Adoptionist Jesus-type.)\n\nI think one of the clearest statement of what I really believe to \nbe WOlfe's cosmology is in the first Latro book, where he discusses \nthe subject with Cleomenes. There is a hierarchy of powers; we can \naspire to commune with the lowest rung; the God of Light does not \nrequire a God of Darkness.\n\n\n\nbut I think it's clear that even he is just the dross cast off by \nGod\n\n \n\nWhy do I say unorthodox? Because " } ] }, { "message_id": "<003d01c5fda7$314f3f10$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-10T16:31:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c5fd70$2b785cc0$dc3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To say that it is \"just a story\" isn't good enough, not for Wolfe. He could\nhave left the High God out of this cosmology and avoided the issue, maybe.\nThen it would have been \"just a story\". There were \"gods\" in the Sun cycle,\ntoo, but God was always around the corner, never out of touch. I recall no\ninstances of prayer, not even an oath, directed to God in TWK. The concept\ndoesn't even seem to exist, and there are two levels of beings between man\nand God. Am I missing something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Acts 17:29-30\n\"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that\nthe Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's\ndevice. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all\nmen every where to repent.\"\n\nWhat's my point? That even if Wolfe would *not* write a story set in a world\nwhere the worship of created beings was not only accepted but required (and\nI doubt he would not), Mythgarthr and above might exist during such a \"time\nof ignorance\" in which God \"winks\" at such things.\n\nOn the other hand, before humans in Mythgarthr were \"raised\" from animals,\nthey presumably did not worship anything at all. So now they worship the\nOvercyns. When they are further \"raised\" to Skai, they will worship Parka\nand Michael, and when they are further \"raised\" they will worship The Most\nHigh God. Disiri was also \"raised\" from gathered detritus.\n\n++++++++++++++\n\nProbably, the reason I don't find the theology of TWK troubling as you do,\nis that I don't believe that the Seven Worlds exist in the same categorical\nsense that ours does (or in the sense that Urth is presumed to).\n\nFor example ONE: There might have been an Arthur who led a temporary and\nfailed alliance in the area around Hadrian's Wall in the 5th or 6th century,\nbut the King Arthur we know of from Le Mort d'Arthur et al is not that\nArthur. HE is an 11th century king, and the stories surrounding him are of\nmythological and cosmological origin and predate him. He has been \"raised\"\nto another level beyond mundane history.\n\nFor example TWO: I still believe that Art Ormsby is in that ambulance Able\nsaw. The Seven Worlds exist in a world of metaphor in which, Wolfe *might*\nbe illustrating, we ALL partake; so possibly, it \"pre-existed\" Art's\nabduction (if pre-existed is the right word for a place outside of Time and\n\"Reality\") . It is not just *in* Art, but it is *in* Art for the purposes of\nthis story.\n\nIt is not Narnia. It is not Oz. It more like Alice's rabbit hole, and it is\nat least more like Tolkien's Middle Earth, which is described as existing in\nhuman Earth's pre-history, but an utterly implausible history.\n\nIn conclusion, the physics of the connection between the Seven Worlds and\nours are those of \"Story and Poetry.\"\n\n(all of which doesn't explain Mag and Mother and such, but I think it might\nhelp avoid wandering down some blind alleys)\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000801c5fdcc$41d10420$3d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-10T20:56:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<003d01c5fda7$314f3f10$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nOn the other hand, before humans in Mythgarthr were \"raised\" from animals,\nthey presumably did not worship anything at all. So now they worship the\nOvercyns. When they are further \"raised\" to Skai, they will worship Parka\nand Michael, and when they are further \"raised\" they will worship The Most\nHigh God. Disiri was also \"raised\" from gathered detritus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the bit about humans being \"raised\" up from animals as just a nod to\nDarwin.\n\nAs for this upward evolution of humans and Aelf ever nearer to the High God\nthat you propose, it's just not in the book, and I see no indication that\nit's even theoretically possible according to the internal logic of the\ncosmology. There are only two instances in the story where an individual is\nraised up to the next level, Disiri and Able. Disiri's lot is unique among\nthe Aelf, as I said before. Able's lot may not be unique among humans, but\nit is certainly exceptional. He was one of the \"chosen slain\", picked for\nhis fighting abilities to sit at the Valfather's table and wait for\nRagnarok. The average human in Mythgarthr is *never* going to get to Skai,\ndead or alive.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370512101320y295fbb5v570b5d4194b5ca78@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-10T21:20:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<15827904692.20051210145053@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanis?aw Bocian wrote:\nWhy do you expect all Wolfe's books to be Christian? When pagan gods\ndo fit into Christianity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I've said before, Wolfe's major project since at least _tBotNS_\nseems to be creating situations in which a non-Christian cosmology\nis embedded into a larger, ortho-Christian context. The most blatant\nexample of this is _tBotLS_: the _Whorl_ is a perfect Gnostic kosmos,\nembedded into a larger Universe in which there is only one true God\nof Christianity (whom Silk knows as 'the Outsider'). We know this\nbecause in Silk's \"enlightenment\" vision at the beginning of\n_Nightside_ he is shown the Gospel, though he can only understand\nthe theoanthropos as \"a man who has been both enlightened and\npossessed by the Outsider.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the best\northodox neoplatonism. According to it, any contact between two levels\nneeds mediators." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, it isn't so much Neoplatonic as Pagan (in my etc.). It is a\ndeliberate representation of the world-Ash of Norse myths, with its\nhigher worlds and its lower worlds, in the form of the later Edda\n(which was influenced by both Christianity and Neoplatonism, and\nhad a High God above all). Similarly, the world of Latro is an\nembedding of the Greek myth-world into a larger Christian\ncontext.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not fear Satan half so much as I fear those who fear him.\n -- St Teresa of Avila\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004b01c5fdf9$0f897d80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-11T02:17:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000801c5fdcc$41d10420$3d3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I took the bit about humans being \"raised\" up from animals as just a nod to\nDarwin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it is \"just\" a nod to Darwin. He *chose* to use the word\n\"raised\" afterall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for this upward evolution of humans and Aelf ever nearer to the High God\nthat you propose, it's just not in the book, and I see no indication that\nit's even theoretically possible according to the internal logic of the\ncosmology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you admit that Disiri was raised to human status and at the end of the\nbook, she is on her\nway to Kleos.\n\nIt doesn't have to be universally *done* for that to be the overall plan. In\nevolution, hominids aren't one day *made* human. It is a gradual process\nthat occurs in generations rather than to a particular creature. The vast\nmajority of genes threads do not survive, and only a remnant continue.\nDisiri has done it. Others will as well.\n\nIn a sense Garsecg and his sister (I forget the name) become Aelf and then\nhuman as well in the form of Arnthor and Morcaine. Albeit, they do it in a\nbackward manner that is presumably unacceptable to the MHG." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The average human in Mythgarthr is *never* going to get to Skai,\ndead or alive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dying first seems to be the standard procedure for raising humans to Skai.\n\nAs for the \"average human\" getting to Skai:\n\nMat 7:13 Enter through the narrow passage: for wide is the passage, and\nbroad is the road, that leads to destruction, and many there are that go\nthat way.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000801c5ffb2$5e488640$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-13T06:56:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<004b01c5fdf9$0f897d80$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nMichael didn't meet Able in Kleos, so clearly he had come down from his\nhigh\nplace. Presumably he was able to return, unlike his brother servants/angels\nwho went down to Skai. What's the difference?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn wrote:\nI suspect the thing that bound the descended angels to Skai was probably\nthe\nslaying of Ymir and the shedding of Ymir's blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the answer I was looking for and the direction I wanted to take this\nthread. People seem to accept the idea that the inhabitants of Kleos are in\nfact angels of one stripe or another; at least none have argued against it.\nThe exact wording in the text regarding those descended angels is \"they\ncould never go back.\" The question then becomes, *why* couldn't they go\nback?\n\nWas there something related to the shedding of blood that physically (if\nsuch a word applies to angels) prohibited them from getting back to Kleos,\nor was it that they were not *permitted* to return, presumably by the\nHighest God? I suspect the latter.\n\nWhy would God punish them for doing what they did? Remember, they were\ntrying to cast out the inevitable imperfection of the world God had created\nfor them, to make that world as near as possible to God's perfection. And\nthey did succeed in casting out much of the imperfection, personified as\nYmir in Skai.\n\nAble was a hero, a man who sacrificed his life in the course of killing a\nmonster, Grengarm. He was rewarded by being elevated to Skai and becoming a\ngod to men. Some angels voluntarily gave up their places in Kleos to go down\nand kill a monster, Ymir. They were punished by being demoted permanently to\nSkai and forced to accept their brethren who stayed at home as gods. What's\nthe difference? Why was the one rewarded and the other punished for doing\nthe same basic thing?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2005-12-13T08:40:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000801c5ffb2$5e488640$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes:\nWhat's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the difference? Why was the one rewarded and the other punished for doing\nthe same basic thing? \n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nBecause the Angeloi had started higher, and had descended of their own will, \nto kill Ymir? \n\nBecause their actions in so doing shaped and created a yet lower realm to \nwhich they were then bound as gods? Bound by the results of their action, \nwhich changed their being? \n\nRemember, this is a gnostic cosmos. God just Is, in a primum-mobile way, \nand pays very little attention to anything but his own glory. It's not a \ncase of rewarding or punishing, but of things necessarily resulting. \n\n\n - hartshorn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c5ffdf$bb7c42c0$0201a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-13T12:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes:\nWhat's\nthe difference? Why was the one rewarded and the other punished for\ndoing the same basic thing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn writes:\nBecause the Angeloi had started higher...\nRemember, this is a gnostic cosmos. God just Is, in a primum-mobile\nway,\nand pays very little attention to anything but his own glory. It's not a\ncase of rewarding or punishing, but of things necessarily resulting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Able was in the same situation after he \"fell\" from Skai (I think there is a\ndeliberate parallel to Lucifer there) and used his Skai-powers in\nMythgarthr. He was either prohibited or unable to return to Skai. It is not\nimpossible that both are true: That he was unable because what he had done\nwas prohibited and it was prohibited because it would prevent a being from\nreturning to from where he powers came.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Maru Dubshinki", "address": "marudubshinki at gmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-13T15:28:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000801c5ffb2$5e488640$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/13/05, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat's the answer I was looking for and the direction I wanted to take\nthis\nthread. People seem to accept the idea that the inhabitants of Kleos are\nin\nfact angels of one stripe or another; at least none have argued against\nit.\nThe exact wording in the text regarding those descended angels is \"they\ncould never go back.\" The question then becomes, *why* couldn't they go\nback?\n\nWas there something related to the shedding of blood that physically (if\nsuch a word applies to angels) prohibited them from getting back to Kleos,\nor was it that they were not *permitted* to return, presumably by the\nHighest God? I suspect the latter.\n\nWhy would God punish them for doing what they did? Remember, they were\ntrying to cast out the inevitable imperfection of the world God had\ncreated\nfor them, to make that world as near as possible to God's perfection. And\nthey did succeed in casting out much of the imperfection, personified as\nYmir in Skai.\n\nAble was a hero, a man who sacrificed his life in the course of killing a\nmonster, Grengarm. He was rewarded by being elevated to Skai and becoming\na\ngod to men. Some angels voluntarily gave up their places in Kleos to go\ndown\nand kill a monster, Ymir. They were punished by being demoted permanently\nto\nSkai and forced to accept their brethren who stayed at home as gods.\nWhat's\nthe difference? Why was the one rewarded and the other punished for doing\nthe same basic thing?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they descend from perfection? If they\ngo from perfection\nto imperfection, then it is not hard to believe that it would be impossible\nto ever get back....\nwithout the aid of the MHG. Reminds me of the doctrine of the Fall, that\nperfection once lost\nis impossible to regain with merely mortal/imperfect/sinful efforts, and\nthat only the intercession\nof Jesus and his blood can we be lifted up to perfection.\n\n~Maru" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20051213164821.76363.qmail@web34610.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "stilskin", "address": "acronus at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2005-12-13T16:48:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Maru Dubshinki wrote:\nCorrect me if I am wrong, but didn't they descend\nfrom perfection? If they\ngo from perfection\nto imperfection, then it is not hard to believe that\nit would be impossible\nto ever get back....\nwithout the aid of the MHG. Reminds me of the\ndoctrine of the Fall, that\nperfection once lost\nis impossible to regain with merely\nmortal/imperfect/sinful efforts, and\nthat only the intercession\nof Jesus and his blood can we be lifted up to\nperfection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's unlike the Fall in that these angels\nvoluntarily sacrificed their claim to perfection in\norder to deal with the problem of Ymir, knowing that\nthey couldn't return.\n\nI also wonder if Able is not a kind of dividing line,\nlike Christ, a new dispensation or the way toward a\nnew dispensation. He is at first bound by all the\nstrictures that bind other denizens of the various\nlevels, but only until he breaks through them --\nagain, just as Christ had to die before he could\ndemonstrate the defeat of death through resurrection. \nIt seems to me that Wolfe sees Able as a Christlike\nfigure in this cosmos -- not strictly analogous to\nChrist but pointing the way to the MHG.\n\n\nhttp://www.sff.net/people/stilskin" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-13T18:42:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000801c5ffb2$5e488640$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we sure that the banishment is permanent, or could there be some process \nof redemption unique to that realm?\n\nI cannot help but think that there is an element of \"gathering the sparks\" \nhere. Once you've gathered enough \"goodness\" on a lower level, when its \nconcentration reaches a high enough level you can uplift it to the next, \nmore pure, level. And the inhabitants there are presumably trying to gather \nenough to uplift them to an even higher level of purity.\n\nOne possible wrinkle to this, though, is that there is a certain atemporal \nnature to this whole process. That is, in a sense, the slaying of Ymir is \n*always still happening*. The descent and uplift are contemporaneous, and so \nfrom a strictly temporal perspective the inhabitants of Kleos will appear to \nbe static." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Michael didn't meet Able in Kleos, so clearly he had come down from his\nhigh\nplace. Presumably he was able to return, unlike his brother \nservants/angels\nwho went down to Skai. What's the difference?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hartshorn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suspect the thing that bound the descended angels to Skai was probably\nthe\nslaying of Ymir and the shedding of Ymir's blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the answer I was looking for and the direction I wanted to take this\nthread. People seem to accept the idea that the inhabitants of Kleos are in\nfact angels of one stripe or another; at least none have argued against it.\nThe exact wording in the text regarding those descended angels is \"they\ncould never go back.\" The question then becomes, *why* couldn't they go\nback?\n\nWas there something related to the shedding of blood that physically (if\nsuch a word applies to angels) prohibited them from getting back to Kleos,\nor was it that they were not *permitted* to return, presumably by the\nHighest God? I suspect the latter.\n\nWhy would God punish them for doing what they did? Remember, they were\ntrying to cast out the inevitable imperfection of the world God had created\nfor them, to make that world as near as possible to God's perfection. And\nthey did succeed in casting out much of the imperfection, personified as\nYmir in Skai.\n\nAble was a hero, a man who sacrificed his life in the course of killing a\nmonster, Grengarm. He was rewarded by being elevated to Skai and becoming a\ngod to men. Some angels voluntarily gave up their places in Kleos to go \ndown\nand kill a monster, Ymir. They were punished by being demoted permanently \nto\nSkai and forced to accept their brethren who stayed at home as gods. What's\nthe difference? Why was the one rewarded and the other punished for doing\nthe same basic thing?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c60156$5ccea6a0$413ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2005-12-15T09:03:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to quibble with the Gnostic view of the cosmology of TWK that\nhartshorn and others have championed. I don't see it that way because I\ndon't think it satisfies the most important criterion.\n\nI agree that the Sun Cycle can (perhaps should) be viewed as Gnostic. The\nIncreate, aka the Outsider, is known of and referred to by the authors of\nthe several manuscripts concerned. That is not the case, however, with Art's\nmanuscript. In the Seven World cosmology, the deity at the top of the heap,\nin Elysion, is labeled variously as the High God, the Highest God and the\nMost High God, but they all refer to the same entity. There is no mention,\ndirect or otherwise that I am aware of in TWK, of any overarching \"one true\nGod\" outside of or otherwise apart from the Seven Worlds.\n\nIn the absence of any contravening internal evidence, I see no reason to\nbelieve that \"Highest God\" and \"Most High God\" mean anything other than what\nnormal superlative usage would imply. MHG cannot mean second fiddle, cannot\nrefer to the Demiurge.\n\nAble isn't very smart; I don't think he has the guile, even if he had a\nmotive, to deceive his brother by writing him a letter in which he\ndeliberately concealed his knowledge of the true creation and operation of\nthe universe, if he thought or had reason to believe that it was something\nother than what he reported it to be, the Seven World cosmology. I don't\nthink Able qualifies as another of Wolfe's unreliable narrators, at least\nnot in the sense that he had something to hide. His narrative omissions are\ndue primarily to a lack of discernment. And no other character in the story\ngives the reader any cause to believe that there is any deity outside the\nSeven Worlds.\n\nOn a more practical level, I just can't see Michael as working for the\nDemiurge. And the entire notion of upward spiritual migration loses its\nappeal if it brings people closer to the Demiurge. If the \"one true God\"\nisn't running the Seven World cosmology, what hope have the people of\nMythgarthr for salvation of any sort, spiritual betterment, transcendent\nlove (Able for Disiri), or any of the other finer, higher sentiments and\naspirations commonly associated with 'true believers'?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2005-12-15T18:46:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c60156$5ccea6a0$413ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Roy's take on the purported Gnosticism in TWK. If this is being \nbased off of the scene with the Most Low God where he claims that if you saw \nhis back you would see the Most High God, I think that it is clear that he \nis lying in that scene.\n\nThe cosmology seems to be much more of a synthesis of Norse mythology with a \nsort of qabbalism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to quibble with the Gnostic view of the cosmology of TWK that\nhartshorn and others have championed. I don't see it that way because I\ndon't think it satisfies the most important criterion.\n\nI agree that the Sun Cycle can (perhaps should) be viewed as Gnostic. The\nIncreate, aka the Outsider, is known of and referred to by the authors of\nthe several manuscripts concerned. That is not the case, however, with \nArt's\nmanuscript. In the Seven World cosmology, the deity at the top of the heap,\nin Elysion, is labeled variously as the High God, the Highest God and the\nMost High God, but they all refer to the same entity. There is no mention,\ndirect or otherwise that I am aware of in TWK, of any overarching \"one true\nGod\" outside of or otherwise apart from the Seven Worlds.\n\nIn the absence of any contravening internal evidence, I see no reason to\nbelieve that \"Highest God\" and \"Most High God\" mean anything other than \nwhat\nnormal superlative usage would imply. MHG cannot mean second fiddle, cannot\nrefer to the Demiurge.\n\nAble isn't very smart; I don't think he has the guile, even if he had a\nmotive, to deceive his brother by writing him a letter in which he\ndeliberately concealed his knowledge of the true creation and operation of\nthe universe, if he thought or had reason to believe that it was something\nother than what he reported it to be, the Seven World cosmology. I don't\nthink Able qualifies as another of Wolfe's unreliable narrators, at least\nnot in the sense that he had something to hide. His narrative omissions are\ndue primarily to a lack of discernment. And no other character in the story\ngives the reader any cause to believe that there is any deity outside the\nSeven Worlds.\n\nOn a more practical level, I just can't see Michael as working for the\nDemiurge. And the entire notion of upward spiritual migration loses its\nappeal if it brings people closer to the Demiurge. If the \"one true God\"\nisn't running the Seven World cosmology, what hope have the people of\nMythgarthr for salvation of any sort, spiritual betterment, transcendent\nlove (Able for Disiri), or any of the other finer, higher sentiments and\naspirations commonly associated with 'true believers'?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<32388155.1134771081255.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2005-12-16T22:11:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TWK: 7 world cosmology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Roy's take on the purported Gnosticism in TWK. If this is being \nbased off of the scene with the Most Low God where he claims that if you saw \nhis back you would see the Most High God, I think that it is clear that he \nis lying in that scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Because we *see* his back and it is only maggots and such.\n\nHowever, there is a progression demonstrated toward the both gods (Most Low\nand Most High) that is at first glance indistinguishable. What is the difference \nbetween Disiri's elevation to humanity and Able's elevation to Skai versus Garsecg's \nelevation to Setr (and the implied elevation to Arnthor)?\n\nIt is said that Garsecg devoured Setr, but that's not *entirely* the case. Setr,\ndidn't cease to be. Instead he became Garsecg at least as much as the other\nway around. Morcaine *became* a dragon of Muspel (or was in the process of\nbecoming one) and the same was true of Arnthor. They started out as half-Aelf\nand were in the process of ever-*sinking* toward the Most Low God.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2006-02-03T19:54:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "<000801c5ffb2$5e488640$5e3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<----------- \n\n From \"The Norsemen\" by H.A. Guerber \n\nThe Giants' Ship \n\nA North Frisian tradition relates that the giants possessed a colossal ship, \ncalled Mannigfual, which constantly cruised about in the Atlantic Ocean. \nSuch was the size of this vessel that the captain was said to patrol the \ndeck on horseback, while the rigging was so extensive and the masts so high \nthat the sailors who went up as youths came down as gray-haired men, having \nrested and refreshed themselves in rooms fashioned and provisioned for that \npurpose in the hugh blocks and pulleys. \n\n -------> \n\n\nA little bit of lore that may possibly have conributed to UOTNS????? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<020001c62924$ec9929e0$0301a8c0@wdw.disney.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "thewynns at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-02-04T00:49:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hmmm...\n\nYes. There is definitely a deliberate connection. Of that I have no doubt.\n\nJ\n\n\nFrom: \"Andy Robertson says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From \"The Norsemen\" by H.A. Guerber\n\nThe Giants' Ship\n\nA North Frisian tradition relates that the giants possessed a colossal\nship,\ncalled Mannigfual, which constantly cruised about in the Atlantic Ocean.\nSuch was the size of this vessel that the captain was said to patrol the\ndeck on horseback, while the rigging was so extensive and the masts so high\nthat the sailors who went up as youths came down as gray-haired men, having\nrested and refreshed themselves in rooms fashioned and provisioned for that\npurpose in the hugh blocks and pulleys.\n\n ------->\n\n\nA little bit of lore that may possibly have conributed to UOTNS?????\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B62178-A2FB-42F4-AC57-2E62F0945C63@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-04T03:40:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ship", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 3, 2006, at 2:54 PM, Andy Robertson wrote:\n<-----------\n\n From \"The Norsemen\" by H.A. Guerber\n\nThe Giants' Ship\n\nA North Frisian tradition relates that the giants possessed a \ncolossal ship,\ncalled Mannigfual, which constantly cruised about in the Atlantic \nOcean.\nSuch was the size of this vessel that the captain was said to \npatrol the\ndeck on horseback, while the rigging was so extensive and the masts \nso high\nthat the sailors who went up as youths came down as gray-haired \nmen, having\nrested and refreshed themselves in rooms fashioned and provisioned \nfor that\npurpose in the hugh blocks and pulleys.\n\n ------->\n\n\nA little bit of lore that may possibly have conributed to UOTNS?????" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Free Live Free, too." } ] } ] }