{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4538", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4538, "subject": "The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4) questions)", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2006-02-21T19:08:38+00:00", "last": "2006-02-21T22:02:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<000001c6371a$38e02990$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2006-02-21T19:08:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4) questions)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Duncan wrote:\n1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,\nthere were clone soldiers..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,\nactually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)\n\nThe soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth. \n\nWe're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on his\njourney. Master Palaemon tells us: \"...there is a redoubt, so I've\nheard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans under\norders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have permission to\nloot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask\nexcuses.\" Shadow, XIII" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-21T19:51:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4)\n\tquestions)", "in_reply_to": "<000001c6371a$38e02990$6601a8c0@cthulhu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth.\n\nWe're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on his\njourney. Master Palaemon tells us: \"...there is a redoubt, so I've\nheard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans under\norders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have permission to\nloot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask\nexcuses.\" Shadow, XIII" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's something I don't understand, however.\n\nIf it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are all these people \nplanning to get to where they're going? On the day in question Severian \nclaims the highway leading to the Piteous Gate is \"*crowded* with carts and \nwagons and traffic of all kinds.\" Surely, most of these people are aware \nthat traffic is prohibited on the Commonwealth's roads. So what will they do \nonce they've passed beyond the Gate? Jump into the Gyoll and start swimming? \n(River traffic does seem to be tolerated.) Melt into the woods and follow \ncrude dirt paths--with carts and wagons and beasts of burden? Hide in the \nbushes whenever they sense a uhlan nears?\n\nMoreover, if such a wide variety of traffic is allowed to exit and travel \nbeyond Nessus by whatever means, doesn't this simply circumvent the law that \nmade road travel illegal in the first place? Wouldn't, in fact, if the law \nwere strictly followed, most people be turned away at the Gate? Apparently \nnot, since enough people are aware they can reach their destinations via \nalternate means -- which in effect makes the prohibition useless anyway.\n\n\"We have closed the roads to paralyze the social order,\" the old autarch \ntells Severian. Methinks he needs to look again.\n\nmsg" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19065094.1140551745075.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "from": { "name": "Rob Davies", "address": "robertedavies at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2006-02-21T19:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4)\n questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Duncan wrote:\n1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,\nthere were clone soldiers..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony wrote:\nThe explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,\nactually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)\n\nThe soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this explanation a bit odd. Why have a gate if no one is allowed to use the road to pass through it?\n\nRob" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1DAE6E3F-F288-451C-86F9-4EC805CD443F@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-21T21:20:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4)\n\tquestions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Feb 21, 2006, at 2:51 PM, mournings glory wrote:\nMr. Ellis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth.\n\nWe're given all the facts we need before Severian even sets off on \nhis\njourney. Master Palaemon tells us: \"...there is a redoubt, so I've\nheard, every fifty leagues... [the roads] are patrolled by uhlans \nunder\norders to kill anyone found on them, and since they have \npermission to\nloot the bodies of those they slay, they are not much inclined to ask\nexcuses.\" Shadow, XIII" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's something I don't understand, however.\n\nIf it's illegal to travel via the roads, how exactly are all these \npeople\nplanning to get to where they're going? On the day in question \nSeverian\nclaims the highway leading to the Piteous Gate is \"*crowded* with \ncarts and\nwagons and traffic of all kinds.\" Surely, most of these people are \naware\nthat traffic is prohibited on the Commonwealth's roads. So what \nwill they do\nonce they've passed beyond the Gate? Jump into the Gyoll and start \nswimming?\n(River traffic does seem to be tolerated.) Melt into the woods and \nfollow\ncrude dirt paths--with carts and wagons and beasts of burden? Hide \nin the\nbushes whenever they sense a uhlan nears?\n\nMoreover, if such a wide variety of traffic is allowed to exit and \ntravel\nbeyond Nessus by whatever means, doesn't this simply circumvent the \nlaw that\nmade road travel illegal in the first place? Wouldn't, in fact, if \nthe law\nwere strictly followed, most people be turned away at the Gate? \nApparently\nnot, since enough people are aware they can reach their \ndestinations via\nalternate means -- which in effect makes the prohibition useless \nanyway.\n\n\"We have closed the roads to paralyze the social order,\" the old \nautarch\ntells Severian. Methinks he needs to look again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it certainly doesn't make sense that there is a society of people \ndescended from petitioners, living out their whole lives in a waiting \nroom at the House Absolute, living off of danishes and coffee!\n\nSo, perhaps it was an order issued some time ago, and over time it \nhas simply become an entrenched dynamic in the Commonwealth. The \nuhlans clearly don't enforce it in an efficient or organized manner, \nor people would never try to use the highways or gates.\n\nMaybe the uhlans - are they the regular military? - are stretched so \nthin with the constant war that they can't spare the troops to \nenforce the rule efficiently; units are rotated back to Nessus so \ninfrequently that the desperate people get to risking the roads \nagain, and any uhlans who encounter them enjoy some fine sport, then \nloot the bodies, and that's how things are. Or perhaps the officers \npurposely wait until there are a lot of people hazarding the roads, \nand then hit them and split up the booty.\n\nEither way, it is a situation a lot like Nessus, and the BOTNS \nitself: new orders built upon the old without the old being resolved \nor understood. A theme is laid down and it takes on a new life and a \nnew meaning.\n\nLike that one episode of Bablyon 5 where Londo was explaining the \ndanger that a crazed emporer posed to the Centarui Republic: he \nrelated how many centuries ago a princess had discovered a single \nflower sprouting from the palace grounds in the middle of winter, and \nhad ordered the palace guard to place someone next to it to keep it \nfrom being stepped on. The flower was long since gone but the palace \nguard still placed a soldier in that same spot to the present day." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2006-02-21T22:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Piteous Gate (was: Book of the new sun (1-4)\n\tquestions)", "in_reply_to": "<19065094.1140551745075.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The road is officially devoted to military use, the transportation of troops \nand supplies, so that is what the gate is for.\n\nI find all arguments about what happened at the Piteous Gate to be a bit \ntenuous, but here are a couple things which make a certain amount of common \nsense to me at any rate.\n\nEven if the uhlans are authorized to plunder anyone on the road, it would \nprobably not be profitable for them to do so (because then nobody would ever \nuse the road). The profitable way to approach it is to leave people alone \nfor the most part and not enforce the rule - this also happens to be good \nfor the economy - which would encourage people to go ahead and use the road, \neven if they are aware that there is some small risk involved. Then, every \nonce in a while, you come down and enforce it; and when you do so, you will \nend up with a huge haul rather than a couple stray travellers here and \nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Duncan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1: what happened at the piteous gate? there was a riot,\nthere were clone soldiers..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The explanation for this has cropped up a few times in the list,\nactually, but since it's my explanation I'm happy to repeat it. :-)\n\nThe soldiers are driving people off the road, because it's illegal to\nuse the roads of commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this explanation a bit odd. Why have a gate if no one is allowed to \nuse the road to pass through it?\n\nRob\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }